Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”
It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.
People come here for our economy, not our democracy.
Dp-… and they are fleeing anti democratic countries. Both. It’s both.
Actually only 6 million people apply for green cards each year. That’s not that many people in a world with almost 8 billion people.
About 8 million American citizens live overseas. Apparently many people who could live here choose not to.
Misrepresentation - just because people are working abroad for private sector/ non profit sector/ international government sector etc does not mean they are not happy at home or do not plan returning there. Many people from all over the world work as expats.
Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.
I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.
Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.
Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.
If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.
You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.
Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.
They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.
The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.
Umm, no thanks!
Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.
You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.
A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.
So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.
I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.
I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.
As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.
The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.
Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.
The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.
Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.
women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy
You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.
what country are you from? In the US, if you want to show skin, you show skin. If you are Amish, and don't want to do that, you don't. And everybody has to work, even women in the gulf. They just do different kinds of work.
Look at Iran. The women there are making it very very clear they don't want the life you describe. And very very few women in the US chose that life. The Amish. A few mormons. A few orthodox Jews. But given a choice, most women chose freedom.
The irony is that the U.S. is to blame for the fact women in Iran live the life they live…
The history of human beings is full of irony. What's your point? Because the US has done bad things, has some bad people, you want to live in Iran, without the basic protections of rule of law and without some basic freedoms? Because if you cannot have perfection, you want hell?
DP. I read that as US meddling has contributed to the way people have to live in Iran. I think Cuba is the same. If the US wasn’t hell bent on sanctions, the people of the country would have more control and more freedoms.
Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.
I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.
Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.
Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.
If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.
You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.
Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.
They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.
The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.
Umm, no thanks!
Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.
You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.
A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.
So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.
I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.
I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.
As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.
The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.
Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.
The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.
Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.
women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy
You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.
DP
You are conflating wealth with comfort of social connections and what you know.
Just because people are afraid to leave situations where that is all they know does not mean they are happy there or do t want more.
I have lived in various countries run by dictators or close to dictatorships including Muslim countries.
Yes there is a certain level of comfort in beinf around people you know and following customs you have followed all your life.
But I can assure you that rates of depression/ anxiety/ hopelessness are sky high among oppressed people but they simply don’t have the mental health care they need or education/ skill sets and/ or legal resources that they need to get out. It is also hard to leave extended family and networks of obligations.
In my experience, Both men and women want democracies and decent living standards.
I strongly disagree with OP’s insinuation that lack of democracy often equals contentment and adequate standards of living. I have lived places where you could hear the scream of people being tortured by police or army for either being poor or supporting opposition parties. Although they could endure much more than me or most westerners but they were not happy. And yet they did not give up fighting for more freedom and control over their destinies.
People are more alike than not.
I have also lived in authoritarian Islamic nations and I completely disagree. They don't want what we want, they don't think like we think, they don't prefer what we prefer. Many people, especially people who think it's their duty to live as the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did, absolutely do not want the kind of culture we have, in which it would be an uphill battle of temptation and counterculture behavior to live as they believe they are called to live. This is the problem with Americans. They believe everyone is actually an American on the inside. They aren't and they don't want our culture, and they tell us this all the time in a million ways.
We don't think about them at all. Who cares about SA
Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”
It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.
People come here for our economy, not our democracy.
Dp-… and they are fleeing anti democratic countries. Both. It’s both.
Actually only 6 million people apply for green cards each year. That’s not that many people in a world with almost 8 billion people.
About 8 million American citizens live overseas. Apparently many people who could live here choose not to.
Misrepresentation - just because people are working abroad for private sector/ non profit sector/ international government sector etc does not mean they are not happy at home or do not plan returning there. Many people from all over the world work as expats.
Come on. The vast majority of those 8 million are not expats working overseas. Plenty of Americans choose to live overseas for a myriad of reasons including immigrants who took US citizenship but choose to move back to their home countries. It’s the same in the US - plenty of people come for work but do not intend to stay.
Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.
I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.
Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.
Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.
If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.
You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.
Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.
They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.
The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.
Umm, no thanks!
Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.
You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.
A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.
So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.
I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.
I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.
As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.
The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.
Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.
The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.
Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.
women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy
You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.
what country are you from? In the US, if you want to show skin, you show skin. If you are Amish, and don't want to do that, you don't. And everybody has to work, even women in the gulf. They just do different kinds of work.
Look at Iran. The women there are making it very very clear they don't want the life you describe. And very very few women in the US chose that life. The Amish. A few mormons. A few orthodox Jews. But given a choice, most women chose freedom.
The irony is that the U.S. is to blame for the fact women in Iran live the life they live…
The history of human beings is full of irony. What's your point? Because the US has done bad things, has some bad people, you want to live in Iran, without the basic protections of rule of law and without some basic freedoms? Because if you cannot have perfection, you want hell?
DP. I read that as US meddling has contributed to the way people have to live in Iran. I think Cuba is the same. If the US wasn’t hell bent on sanctions, the people of the country would have more control and more freedoms.
sure. but this thread is about "liberal democracy is not favored around the world". Just because this is true, you want to live in UAE? really?
Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.
I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.
Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.
Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.
If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.
You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.
Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.
They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.
The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.
Umm, no thanks!
Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.
You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.
A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.
So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.
I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.
I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.
As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.
The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.
Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.
The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.
Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.
women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy
You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.
DP
You are conflating wealth with comfort of social connections and what you know.
Just because people are afraid to leave situations where that is all they know does not mean they are happy there or do t want more.
I have lived in various countries run by dictators or close to dictatorships including Muslim countries.
Yes there is a certain level of comfort in beinf around people you know and following customs you have followed all your life.
But I can assure you that rates of depression/ anxiety/ hopelessness are sky high among oppressed people but they simply don’t have the mental health care they need or education/ skill sets and/ or legal resources that they need to get out. It is also hard to leave extended family and networks of obligations.
In my experience, Both men and women want democracies and decent living standards.
I strongly disagree with OP’s insinuation that lack of democracy often equals contentment and adequate standards of living. I have lived places where you could hear the scream of people being tortured by police or army for either being poor or supporting opposition parties. Although they could endure much more than me or most westerners but they were not happy. And yet they did not give up fighting for more freedom and control over their destinies.
People are more alike than not.
I have also lived in authoritarian Islamic nations and I completely disagree. They don't want what we want, they don't think like we think, they don't prefer what we prefer. Many people, especially people who think it's their duty to live as the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did, absolutely do not want the kind of culture we have, in which it would be an uphill battle of temptation and counterculture behavior to live as they believe they are called to live. This is the problem with Americans. They believe everyone is actually an American on the inside. They aren't and they don't want our culture, and they tell us this all the time in a million ways.
And yet there are sure to be those among them who DO want more freedom, but cannot have it. They can't even express that they want it. That's how it is in oppressive societies -- you can't even express a longing for something that is 100% frowned upon, because it might land you in a very bad place. Or your loved ones.
Here you are free to say you'd like to be a trad wife if that's what you want. People might raise an eyebrow or even make fun of you. But you are free to find someone who wants to marry you and live that lifestyle. But if a woman in SA decides she wants to wear western style clothing and drive and not be religious, what are her options?
Obviously, she can't do that. But what's your point? Our American values say that it's intolerable for women to live with these restrictions. Yet they repeatedly take action to become even more restrictive, any time they get a chance. Even when we do regime change, they always eventually end up back at the beginning, with an authoritarian society. We can either go around invading nations, or refusing to engage with them (eg how Biden tried to tell MBS to pound sand, only to beg him back for some of that luscious Saudi oil), or engage with them while telling them that we think they are bad people. None of those are good options and all of those are reasons and examples of why the US has become unpopular. Even the Europeans have had enough of our moralizing to other nations. Do you think the French or the Germans make sure to tell the Saudis and the Qataris that they disapprove of them? No.
And by the way. In the past few years, the US has had the least influence on Saudi Arabia that its had since we basically created that country to house Aramco. And in that time, women can now drive, there are mixed gender concerts with famous names, KSA is hosting big boxing matches, and they are building a tourist resort for western tourists in the north area by the beach. So in the time that we stopped hectoring them about how drastically superior our morals are, they've actually expanded freedoms.
Feel free to go live in one of those countries you admire so much. Maybe change places with one of the women who did NOT choose that type of government to live under. You know there will be plenty who will line up to switch with you.
Pay the way you forgot to mention the guardianship laws for women in SA.
Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.
I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.
Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.
Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.
If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.
You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.
Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.
They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.
The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.
Umm, no thanks!
Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.
You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.
A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.
So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.
I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.
I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.
As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.
The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.
Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.
The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.
Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.
women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy
You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.
DP
You are conflating wealth with comfort of social connections and what you know.
Just because people are afraid to leave situations where that is all they know does not mean they are happy there or do t want more.
I have lived in various countries run by dictators or close to dictatorships including Muslim countries.
Yes there is a certain level of comfort in beinf around people you know and following customs you have followed all your life.
But I can assure you that rates of depression/ anxiety/ hopelessness are sky high among oppressed people but they simply don’t have the mental health care they need or education/ skill sets and/ or legal resources that they need to get out. It is also hard to leave extended family and networks of obligations.
In my experience, Both men and women want democracies and decent living standards.
I strongly disagree with OP’s insinuation that lack of democracy often equals contentment and adequate standards of living. I have lived places where you could hear the scream of people being tortured by police or army for either being poor or supporting opposition parties. Although they could endure much more than me or most westerners but they were not happy. And yet they did not give up fighting for more freedom and control over their destinies.
People are more alike than not.
I have also lived in authoritarian Islamic nations and I completely disagree. They don't want what we want, they don't think like we think, they don't prefer what we prefer. Many people, especially people who think it's their duty to live as the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did, absolutely do not want the kind of culture we have, in which it would be an uphill battle of temptation and counterculture behavior to live as they believe they are called to live. This is the problem with Americans. They believe everyone is actually an American on the inside. They aren't and they don't want our culture, and they tell us this all the time in a million ways.
And yet there are sure to be those among them who DO want more freedom, but cannot have it. They can't even express that they want it. That's how it is in oppressive societies -- you can't even express a longing for something that is 100% frowned upon, because it might land you in a very bad place. Or your loved ones.
Here you are free to say you'd like to be a trad wife if that's what you want. People might raise an eyebrow or even make fun of you. But you are free to find someone who wants to marry you and live that lifestyle. But if a woman in SA decides she wants to wear western style clothing and drive and not be religious, what are her options?
Obviously, she can't do that. But what's your point? Our American values say that it's intolerable for women to live with these restrictions. Yet they repeatedly take action to become even more restrictive, any time they get a chance. Even when we do regime change, they always eventually end up back at the beginning, with an authoritarian society. We can either go around invading nations, or refusing to engage with them (eg how Biden tried to tell MBS to pound sand, only to beg him back for some of that luscious Saudi oil), or engage with them while telling them that we think they are bad people. None of those are good options and all of those are reasons and examples of why the US has become unpopular. Even the Europeans have had enough of our moralizing to other nations. Do you think the French or the Germans make sure to tell the Saudis and the Qataris that they disapprove of them? No.
And by the way. In the past few years, the US has had the least influence on Saudi Arabia that its had since we basically created that country to house Aramco. And in that time, women can now drive, there are mixed gender concerts with famous names, KSA is hosting big boxing matches, and they are building a tourist resort for western tourists in the north area by the beach. So in the time that we stopped hectoring them about how drastically superior our morals are, they've actually expanded freedoms.
Feel free to go live in one of those countries you admire so much. Maybe change places with one of the women who did NOT choose that type of government to live under. You know there will be plenty who will line up to switch with you.
Pay the way you forgot to mention the guardianship laws for women in SA.
So predictable that when somebody points out that other people may not want to live in the US, or may prefer or be comfortable with a different system, there are always a few posters who take it as a personal insult and want to strip them of their American citizenship or just boot them out of the country.
Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”
It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.
People come here for our economy, not our democracy.
Dp-… and they are fleeing anti democratic countries. Both. It’s both.
Actually only 6 million people apply for green cards each year. That’s not that many people in a world with almost 8 billion people.
About 8 million American citizens live overseas. Apparently many people who could live here choose not to.
Misrepresentation - just because people are working abroad for private sector/ non profit sector/ international government sector etc does not mean they are not happy at home or do not plan returning there. Many people from all over the world work as expats.
Come on. The vast majority of those 8 million are not expats working overseas. Plenty of Americans choose to live overseas for a myriad of reasons including immigrants who took US citizenship but choose to move back to their home countries. It’s the same in the US - plenty of people come for work but do not intend to stay.
Here is an estimated look (not including ex-military personnel) of American expats by country. Not surprisingly, neighboring Canada and Mexico top the list.
Authoritarian regimes in Middle East or elsewhere is not even in the top ten of places where 8 million US expats live. Often people move for either caring for family
Members who are sick or to retire comfortably in say Mexico or for work. Not because they don’t favor living in liberal democracies.
From world expat web site
Each Country's Number of US Expats
Mexico 799,248
Canada 273,226
United Kingdom 170,771
Puerto Rico 159,515
Germany 152,639
Australia 116,620
Israel 76,794
South Korea 68,050
France 61,668
Japan 58,340
Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”
It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.
People come here for our economy, not our democracy.
Dp-… and they are fleeing anti democratic countries. Both. It’s both.
Actually only 6 million people apply for green cards each year. That’s not that many people in a world with almost 8 billion people.
About 8 million American citizens live overseas. Apparently many people who could live here choose not to.
Misrepresentation - just because people are working abroad for private sector/ non profit sector/ international government sector etc does not mean they are not happy at home or do not plan returning there. Many people from all over the world work as expats.
Come on. The vast majority of those 8 million are not expats working overseas. Plenty of Americans choose to live overseas for a myriad of reasons including immigrants who took US citizenship but choose to move back to their home countries. It’s the same in the US - plenty of people come for work but do not intend to stay.
Here is an estimated look (not including ex-military personnel) of American expats by country. Not surprisingly, neighboring Canada and Mexico top the list.
Authoritarian regimes in Middle East or elsewhere is not even in the top ten of places where 8 million US expats live. Often people move for either caring for family
Members who are sick or to retire comfortably in say Mexico or for work. Not because they don’t favor living in liberal democracies.
From world expat web site
Each Country's Number of US Expats
Mexico 799,248
Canada 273,226
United Kingdom 170,771
Puerto Rico 159,515
Germany 152,639
Australia 116,620
Israel 76,794
South Korea 68,050
France 61,668
Japan 58,340
What website? I couldn’t find anything called world expat website. Dual citizens returning to their home country don’t call themselves expats. Expats usually refer to people living in a country who don’t have that citizenship.
According to the State Department, 60,000 Americans live in Egypt. WaPo reported 86,000 live in Lebanon.
Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”
It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.
People come here for our economy, not our democracy.
Dp-… and they are fleeing anti democratic countries. Both. It’s both.
Actually only 6 million people apply for green cards each year. That’s not that many people in a world with almost 8 billion people.
About 8 million American citizens live overseas. Apparently many people who could live here choose not to.
Misrepresentation - just because people are working abroad for private sector/ non profit sector/ international government sector etc does not mean they are not happy at home or do not plan returning there. Many people from all over the world work as expats.
Come on. The vast majority of those 8 million are not expats working overseas. Plenty of Americans choose to live overseas for a myriad of reasons including immigrants who took US citizenship but choose to move back to their home countries. It’s the same in the US - plenty of people come for work but do not intend to stay.
Here is an estimated look (not including ex-military personnel) of American expats by country. Not surprisingly, neighboring Canada and Mexico top the list.
Authoritarian regimes in Middle East or elsewhere is not even in the top ten of places where 8 million US expats live. Often people move for either caring for family
Members who are sick or to retire comfortably in say Mexico or for work. Not because they don’t favor living in liberal democracies.
From world expat web site
Each Country's Number of US Expats
Mexico 799,248
Canada 273,226
United Kingdom 170,771
Puerto Rico 159,515
Germany 152,639
Australia 116,620
Israel 76,794
South Korea 68,050
France 61,668
Japan 58,340
So, living in Puerto Rico counts as being an “expat” now?
Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”
It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.
People come here for our economy, not our democracy.
Dp-… and they are fleeing anti democratic countries. Both. It’s both.
Actually only 6 million people apply for green cards each year. That’s not that many people in a world with almost 8 billion people.
About 8 million American citizens live overseas. Apparently many people who could live here choose not to.
Misrepresentation - just because people are working abroad for private sector/ non profit sector/ international government sector etc does not mean they are not happy at home or do not plan returning there. Many people from all over the world work as expats.
Come on. The vast majority of those 8 million are not expats working overseas. Plenty of Americans choose to live overseas for a myriad of reasons including immigrants who took US citizenship but choose to move back to their home countries. It’s the same in the US - plenty of people come for work but do not intend to stay.
Here is an estimated look (not including ex-military personnel) of American expats by country. Not surprisingly, neighboring Canada and Mexico top the list.
Authoritarian regimes in Middle East or elsewhere is not even in the top ten of places where 8 million US expats live. Often people move for either caring for family
Members who are sick or to retire comfortably in say Mexico or for work. Not because they don’t favor living in liberal democracies.
From world expat web site
Each Country's Number of US Expats
Mexico 799,248
Canada 273,226
United Kingdom 170,771
Puerto Rico 159,515
Germany 152,639
Australia 116,620
Israel 76,794
South Korea 68,050
France 61,668
Japan 58,340
What website? I couldn’t find anything called world expat website. Dual citizens returning to their home country don’t call themselves expats. Expats usually refer to people living in a country who don’t have that citizenship.
According to the State Department, 60,000 Americans live in Egypt. WaPo reported 86,000 live in Lebanon.
So it turns out that civil wars are increasing around the world and there are two main risks:
1. Being a partial democracy where opposition is squashed and there is not freedom of non state press.
2. Organizing political Parties around race/ religion/ ethnic identity rather than conservative or liberal policies.
The US Democratic system has been downgraded three times since Trump entered the arena in 2016 due to Russian interference in elections, violent insurrection and ongoing 2020 election outcome lies accompanied with attempts to restrict democratic safeguards. Trump has also reordered GOP around white nationalist values.
US needs to protect and strengthen democracy not undermine it in order to avoid civil unrest and promote freedoms we take for granted.
We need to regulate social media and AI to better control all the misinformation that undermines democracy.
Anonymous wrote:Have any of you ever read anything about the world? There is a lot more democracy in the world today than in the 1980s or anytime before then.
Democracy is not easy.
It takes work
We aren’t perfect, and our system is not easy, but it’s the best humankind has come up with.
END THREAD
For the US maybe. But the Americans sure don’t practice what they preach when it comes to foreign relations. The post World War Two era has seen Americans kill millions of innocents. I guess it’s okay when you are committing evil to make the world safe for democracy.
I have an idea!
How about Russia and China and Iran and North Korea give democracy a try. I would love to see them do it better. Truly.
Not happening in China at least. People fear chaos. The Chinese are perfectly happy trading a vote for stability and opportunity.
Iran, however, would like a vote. Different culture. Different circumstances. It would be a very a healthy democracy if given a chance.
North Korea is a little hopeless at this moment in time. There is no social culture that would support a democracy.
And Russians prefer tsars and dictators. They fear each other and outsiders. They like authoritarian rule. It makes them feel safe. And the "leader" gives them purpose. The educated elite have already left Russia. What remains would re-elect Putin in a heartbeat.
Persia is a 3500+ year history — a truly civilizational state
It has never had a democracy
You are colored by your perception of Persia due to a sliver of Persian emigres in the us (who even within this group are all not democracy proponents)
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