All these rejections and deferrals reported on DCUM and CC are shocking and discouraging

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When applying to colleges and universities, applying to at least 3 safeties is the most important. If a student accurately identifies & applies to 3 safeties, then the number of apps to other schools should not be a concern.

If up to me, I would limit students to 12 applications although 10 is also a reasonable limit.

With high stats kids being yield protected from safeties, it doesn't seem like safeties exist anymore.

Not all schools yield protect. If it does, it's not a safety.

THIS. Not sure why some here can't grasp that.

NP. Agree, schools that yield protect are not safeties. Food for thought: are there schools which now yield protect, but didn't appear to yield protect prior to test optional admissions?

Many colleges outsource yield management to enrollment management consultants for big bucks. Those consultants use algorithms. The algorithms in the past incorporated score data and test optional students were but a tiny slice of the big picture. That all changed, of course, and the portion of test optional applicants is now much bigger and more likely to enroll than a score-submitter.

It seemed that, in the past, some high-acceptance-rate colleges might accept several high stats applicants and anticipate that only a small fraction of those would choose to attend. Now, there is a sense that the algorithms cannot handle that, and so instead the high stats applicants are simply denied. Something is not right with the algorithms if high stats students are being denied from colleges with 80%+ acceptance rates.

This is why I'm saying safeties don't exist anymore. It doesn't make sense that a school would reject a high stats student if they accept so many applicants.

It does make sense from the school's perspective when the ultimate goal is enrollment, in other words, "bottoms in seats." The problem is that the school is not in the sweet spot: highly selective/high yield OR less selective/open enrollment.

VT is moderately selective, which means that VT is trying to balance institutional priorities (e.g., 1st gen/URM/athletes, etc.), which means rejecting some high stats in-state kids AND reaching enrollment targets, which means ensuring that students that are accepted enroll (waitlisting high stats kids that may have better offers) but not accepting too many students, which leads to over enrollment.

I think the problem goes back to the algorithms and the enrollment management consultants. There seems to be uncertainty that the algorithms cannot account for, whereas in previous times (pre test optional) this was not a problem. Rather than admit 5 or 7 or 9, or however many, high-stats applicants for every 1 they expect to yield, they admit none because they are afraid of under or over enrolling. In other words, their mathematical model is bad.

I suspect that the model has difficulty predicting how many would enroll because there is much greater uncertainty on what those high-stats applicants' alternative options might be. (If the enrollment management experts can't figure it out, it's even tougher for the applicants making their lists...)

So basically, I'm blaming the $15B enrollment management consultant industry for failing to figure this out. Class of 2021 they were thrown for a loop. They should have it figured out by now.

And they are just making it harder on themselves. The more unpredictable it gets for the kids, the next year's group naturally applies to more schools which then makes yield go down more on average. We're all stuck in this spiral.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:VA Tech says it is very important in the essays to write how the student would be a part of the community and what goals would be at VT and how VT would help achieve them. School counselors had spoken to a reader and were emphatic.

Don’t know how much it counts, but they said that it is “very important”. Writing generically is no good. Has to be specific to what the student would do at VT and why they want to be there.

Every school says this. There as a joke at one college visit where an applicant had forgotten to replace all of the references to the rival school in the "why this school" essay. the general rule of thumb, if you can simply swap out the name of the school, you are not writing a good "why this school" prompt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When applying to colleges and universities, applying to at least 3 safeties is the most important. If a student accurately identifies & applies to 3 safeties, then the number of apps to other schools should not be a concern.

If up to me, I would limit students to 12 applications although 10 is also a reasonable limit.

With high stats kids being yield protected from safeties, it doesn't seem like safeties exist anymore.

Not all schools yield protect. If it does, it's not a safety.

THIS. Not sure why some here can't grasp that.

NP. Agree, schools that yield protect are not safeties. Food for thought: are there schools which now yield protect, but didn't appear to yield protect prior to test optional admissions?

Many colleges outsource yield management to enrollment management consultants for big bucks. Those consultants use algorithms. The algorithms in the past incorporated score data and test optional students were but a tiny slice of the big picture. That all changed, of course, and the portion of test optional applicants is now much bigger and more likely to enroll than a score-submitter.

It seemed that, in the past, some high-acceptance-rate colleges might accept several high stats applicants and anticipate that only a small fraction of those would choose to attend. Now, there is a sense that the algorithms cannot handle that, and so instead the high stats applicants are simply denied. Something is not right with the algorithms if high stats students are being denied from colleges with 80%+ acceptance rates.

This is why I'm saying safeties don't exist anymore. It doesn't make sense that a school would reject a high stats student if they accept so many applicants.

It does make sense from the school's perspective when the ultimate goal is enrollment, in other words, "bottoms in seats." The problem is that the school is not in the sweet spot: highly selective/high yield OR less selective/open enrollment.

VT is moderately selective, which means that VT is trying to balance institutional priorities (e.g., 1st gen/URM/athletes, etc.), which means rejecting some high stats in-state kids AND reaching enrollment targets, which means ensuring that students that are accepted enroll (waitlisting high stats kids that may have better offers) but not accepting too many students, which leads to over enrollment.

I think the problem goes back to the algorithms and the enrollment management consultants. There seems to be uncertainty that the algorithms cannot account for, whereas in previous times (pre test optional) this was not a problem. Rather than admit 5 or 7 or 9, or however many, high-stats applicants for every 1 they expect to yield, they admit none because they are afraid of under or over enrolling. In other words, their mathematical model is bad.

I suspect that the model has difficulty predicting how many would enroll because there is much greater uncertainty on what those high-stats applicants' alternative options might be. (If the enrollment management experts can't figure it out, it's even tougher for the applicants making their lists...)

So basically, I'm blaming the $15B enrollment management consultant industry for failing to figure this out. Class of 2021 they were thrown for a loop. They should have it figured out by now.

Yes, that makes sense and it seems like VT is using enrollment management software/algorithms like many schools with large applicant counts do. I am just pointing out the institutional motives or the outcomes that VT desires and why they are using this system, "algorithms," to manage enrollment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:VA Tech says it is very important in the essays to write how the student would be a part of the community and what goals would be at VT and how VT would help achieve them. School counselors had spoken to a reader and were emphatic.

Don’t know how much it counts, but they said that it is “very important”. Writing generically is no good. Has to be specific to what the student would do at VT and why they want to be there.

Every school says this. There as a joke at one college visit where an applicant had forgotten to replace all of the references to the rival school in the "why this school" essay. the general rule of thumb, if you can simply swap out the name of the school, you are not writing a good "why this school" prompt.

+1 but the added wrinkle with VT is that their essays are the ONLY thing that they look at that can show a bit of who you are as a person. They don't read the common app essay. They don't look at teacher recommendations. Those short answers are your one place to stand out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

This. Seriously, search back.

People say this EVERY year (even pre-COVID).

It is all about your list.

Applying to a broad range of ELITE schools is not making a balanced list.

98% of the kids who are shut out are to blame (though maybe their parents played a heavy role in the debacle).

NP - seems like part of what is contributing to this angst is the real change in admissions for VA Tech which was a solid option for most strong NOVA applicants until the last few years. If VT becomes a lottery admit it starts to fell pretty crappy (after already accepting that UVA and W&M are beyond reach). This is especially hard to take when other nearby states prioritize their in-state candidates (NC, FL, GA). Not sure if UMD is marching in the same direction for MD students but sounds like that might be the case. I realize that VA doesn't fund State U's to the same extent as others and therefore they have more freedom on admissions criteria but it is a real shift.

[b]


+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This. Seriously, search back.

People say this EVERY year (even pre-COVID).

It is all about your list.

Applying to a broad range of ELITE schools is not making a balanced list.

98% of the kids who are shut out are to blame (though maybe their parents played a heavy role in the debacle).

NP - seems like part of what is contributing to this angst is the real change in admissions for VA Tech which was a solid option for most strong NOVA applicants until the last few years. If VT becomes a lottery admit it starts to fell pretty crappy (after already accepting that UVA and W&M are beyond reach). This is especially hard to take when other nearby states prioritize their in-state candidates (NC, FL, GA). Not sure if UMD is marching in the same direction for MD students but sounds like that might be the case. I realize that VA doesn't fund State U's to the same extent as others and therefore they have more freedom on admissions criteria but it is a real shift.

[b]


+1

Especially since they are accepting OOS at a higher rate and WL stronger in-state students than they are accepting. If it was just that it was getting more selective across the board I think people might be frustrated but understand that's the way of the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This. Seriously, search back.

People say this EVERY year (even pre-COVID).

It is all about your list.

Applying to a broad range of ELITE schools is not making a balanced list.

98% of the kids who are shut out are to blame (though maybe their parents played a heavy role in the debacle).

NP - seems like part of what is contributing to this angst is the real change in admissions for VA Tech which was a solid option for most strong NOVA applicants until the last few years. If VT becomes a lottery admit it starts to fell pretty crappy (after already accepting that UVA and W&M are beyond reach). This is especially hard to take when other nearby states prioritize their in-state candidates (NC, FL, GA). Not sure if UMD is marching in the same direction for MD students but sounds like that might be the case. I realize that VA doesn't fund State U's to the same extent as others and therefore they have more freedom on admissions criteria but it is a real shift.

[b]

+1

If UVA, VT, and W&M become out of reach for many NoVA kids, it will raise the bar for other VA public colleges and universities who will become more selective as a result. Many kids with VA 529 accounts only look at in-state public. They only consider OOS schools if they give enough merit to lower the cost and equal in-state cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This. Seriously, search back.

People say this EVERY year (even pre-COVID).

It is all about your list.

Applying to a broad range of ELITE schools is not making a balanced list.

98% of the kids who are shut out are to blame (though maybe their parents played a heavy role in the debacle).

NP - seems like part of what is contributing to this angst is the real change in admissions for VA Tech which was a solid option for most strong NOVA applicants until the last few years. If VT becomes a lottery admit it starts to fell pretty crappy (after already accepting that UVA and W&M are beyond reach). This is especially hard to take when other nearby states prioritize their in-state candidates (NC, FL, GA). Not sure if UMD is marching in the same direction for MD students but sounds like that might be the case. I realize that VA doesn't fund State U's to the same extent as others and therefore they have more freedom on admissions criteria but it is a real shift.

[b]

+1

If UVA, VT, and W&M become out of reach for many NoVA kids, it will raise the bar for other VA public colleges and universities who will become more selective as a result. Many kids with VA 529 accounts only look at in-state public. They only consider OOS schools if they give enough merit to lower the cost and equal in-state cost.

Fortunately GMU decided to grow rather than become more selective. The enrolled students profile is getting higher and higher--currently 43% are in the top 1/4 of their class with a mean GPA of 3.7 and the interquartile range for SAT is 1160-1340, though GMU is test optional and only a little over 40% of students submit test scores. But they admit about 90% of students who apply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Posters that keep saying that if you want VT you have to ED. I personally hate ED. Especially when it is a public university. I mean, come on! The primary purpose should be to educate Virginia residents. High stats kids should be able to consider all state schools, like you see in California. ED benefits colleges with guaranteed yield and full pay students. ED doesn’t really benefit students. Why shouldn’t kids get a chance to consider multiple colleges come April?

I personally love ED. It's the only way to actually prove a school is your first choice - I wish MORE schools offered it. And it's no guarantee of admission at VT (or anywhere), btw - it just helps. If you want to play the field, feel free! Consider all the schools you want. But don't expect schools to accept your kid if they have plenty of others who have the right stats, the whole package, AND will definitely attend. There are thousands of qualified applicants. I think some parents here like to think that *their* kid is the most qualified ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This. Seriously, search back.

People say this EVERY year (even pre-COVID).

It is all about your list.

Applying to a broad range of ELITE schools is not making a balanced list.

98% of the kids who are shut out are to blame (though maybe their parents played a heavy role in the debacle).

NP - seems like part of what is contributing to this angst is the real change in admissions for VA Tech which was a solid option for most strong NOVA applicants until the last few years. If VT becomes a lottery admit it starts to fell pretty crappy (after already accepting that UVA and W&M are beyond reach). This is especially hard to take when other nearby states prioritize their in-state candidates (NC, FL, GA). Not sure if UMD is marching in the same direction for MD students but sounds like that might be the case. I realize that VA doesn't fund State U's to the same extent as others and therefore they have more freedom on admissions criteria but it is a real shift.

+1

If UVA, VT, and W&M become out of reach for many NoVA kids, it will raise the bar for other VA public colleges and universities who will become more selective as a result. Many kids with VA 529 accounts only look at in-state public. They only consider OOS schools if they give enough merit to lower the cost and equal in-state cost.

[b]Fortunately GMU decided to grow rather than become more selective. The enrolled students profile is getting higher and higher--currently 43% are in the top 1/4 of their class with a mean GPA of 3.7 and the interquartile range for SAT is 1160-1340, though GMU is test optional and only a little over 40% of students submit test scores. But they admit about 90% of students who apply.

GMU didn't decide to grow, the legislature decided to pump money into the campuses where expansion was possible - hence the never-ending construction at GMU and acquisition of additional campuses. CNU too

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not a parent of a senior here, so please bear with me - So, how does that work, though? When I'm seeing reports of kids with 4.0+ GPAs that, at least according to parents, have good ECs being rejected from Penn State, for example, how was that not them being rejected by a safety?

The Penn State system received 95,999 applications. There are just too many high stat kids applying to the same schools, for the same majors.

Disappointed that they couldn't generate just one more application.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This. Seriously, search back.

People say this EVERY year (even pre-COVID).

It is all about your list.

Applying to a broad range of ELITE schools is not making a balanced list.

98% of the kids who are shut out are to blame (though maybe their parents played a heavy role in the debacle).

NP - seems like part of what is contributing to this angst is the real change in admissions for VA Tech which was a solid option for most strong NOVA applicants until the last few years. If VT becomes a lottery admit it starts to fell pretty crappy (after already accepting that UVA and W&M are beyond reach). This is especially hard to take when other nearby states prioritize their in-state candidates (NC, FL, GA). Not sure if UMD is marching in the same direction for MD students but sounds like that might be the case. I realize that VA doesn't fund State U's to the same extent as others and therefore they have more freedom on admissions criteria but it is a real shift.

[b]

VT is in no way close to UVA and W&M in selectivity. More a peer to GMU.

+1

If UVA, VT, and W&M become out of reach for many NoVA kids, it will raise the bar for other VA public colleges and universities who will become more selective as a result. Many kids with VA 529 accounts only look at in-state public. They only consider OOS schools if they give enough merit to lower the cost and equal in-state cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not a parent of a senior here, so please bear with me - So, how does that work, though? When I'm seeing reports of kids with 4.0+ GPAs that, at least according to parents, have good ECs being rejected from Penn State, for example, how was that not them being rejected by a safety?

The Penn State system received 95,999 applications. There are just too many high stat kids applying to the same schools, for the same majors.

Disappointed that they couldn't generate just one more application.

Isn’t engineering Penn State’s most popular major? All of my kids went there for math and had no problem getting in. Maybe change majors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it true that there will be fewer applicants beginning in 2025 ? Based on birth rate stats

Even if demographically true, it won’t make a difference because a) students are applying to record numbers of colleges; and 2) there is an endless sea of full freight internationals willing to pay anything to come to the uS to study. My own (rather unimpressive) SLAC is cornering the market on full freight international students (same was $30 million in the red due to Covid) all the while saying “look how diverse we are! Breaking records here!”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not a parent of a senior here, so please bear with me - So, how does that work, though? When I'm seeing reports of kids with 4.0+ GPAs that, at least according to parents, have good ECs being rejected from Penn State, for example, how was that not them being rejected by a safety?

The Penn State system received 95,999 applications. There are just too many high stat kids applying to the same schools, for the same majors.

Disappointed that they couldn't generate just one more application.

Isn’t engineering Penn State’s most popular major? All of my kids went there for math and had no problem getting in. Maybe change majors.

You couldn't find a current thread to troll? This thread is from a year ago.