Is Gonzaga the it school this year for boys?

[Anonymous]

Honestly, I had never heard of Gonzaga until maybe a year or two ago when I realized that my kids have multiple teachers (DCPS) and youth sports coaches who are Gonzaga graduates.

I don't know if it makes it an "it school" but I think it speaks volumes about the values the school instills that so many graduates stay local and get into education, particularly public school. It has put it on the radar for us to consider when the boys are old enough.

So, I would say the profile is rising.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, only if you can't afford elite private or dislike public.

It's Catholic, not private and it's half the price of the privates. It's the school for super athletes whose parents are Catholic or don't mind a catholic education.

Catholic schools ARE private schools, and Gonzaga is not a diocesan school in any event.

It's closer to a private school than most Catholic schools, but it's still part of the Washington arch-diocese and it's managed and partially staffed by ordained Catholic clergy.

Hmm. Weird logic. I guess NCS and STA are not private because of their affiliation with the Episcopal church? I assume Sidwell is not private because it is affiliated with the Quaker church? All of these schools also have chapels and a meeting house on campus.

Public means affiliated and run by and with the government including chartered schools. Everything else is private

In the strictest sense, but catholic schools take direction and often times money from the catholic church. It's a hierarchal institution, there's no free-lancing in the catholic church, and the schools approach reflects that. You can find true independent private schools that take similar educational and cultural stances, but the Catholic schools are ultimately doing it as part of a larger institutional system.

Wrong. The Catholic church does not get involved at all in our Catholic HS. An independent Catholic school will engage in the Catholic teachings, but they do it in the way they find suitable for their students. There is no direction from the Archdiocese on the curriculum. Please don't post things you know nothing about.

Well, they do. And at Gonazaga, specifically, as detailed earlier in this crazy thread, the school defended itself in court from discrimination claims by invoking the clergy clause, saying they are an institution of the Catholic church and their teachers are there to teach the tenets of Catholicism.

I don't know what school your kids go to, and am willing to believe that higher-ups, whether they are from the archdiocese or the Jesuit or Benedictine (let's not forget St. Anselm's!) orders, may not interfere with daily education decisions, but they absolutely play a major role in setting the schools path, the overarching curriculum and the decisions about the style of teaching. In fact, at schools that are Jesuit and especially those that are Benedictine, THIS IS THE SELLING POINT. They maintain very high levels of academic excellence and promote a very specific style of classical education — if those representatives of the Catholic church are not involved at those schools there are a lot of people who are going to want their goddamn money back!

You don't know what you are talking about. Each school is founded/run by a different order of priests or nuns. Gonzaga and Prep are Jesuit. Stone Ridge is part of the Sacred Heart Network of Schools. Visitation is Salesian. SJC is Lasallian. All of these schools are independent in that they aren't under the umbrella of a particular church or archdiocese. Their curriculum is independent...and if you observe closely, they vary even if under that same order (GZ vs GP for example have different curricula). I know you are convinced Catholic schools are somehow under some higher power overseeing them, but other than the parochial schools, that simply is not the case. And if you still claim it is, please provide hard evidence of this. I doubt you have it.

yes, I pointed out the Jesuit and the Benedictine connectoins... didn't know about Salesian... very interesting.

But you're almost there... what are all these orders... what are they?

They are independent. Yay you finally got it!!

No, they're Catholic holy orders whose heads are appointed by the Pope and answer to the Pope. Members of the order act as school presidents or headmasters and the orders require the schools to place order members on the board of trustees. The Catholic church is a heirachy, once again--that's the point! And, once again, if these Jesuit, Benedictine, Lasallian, Salesian, et al schools are "independent" of the Catholic orders that ostensibly control them, a whole lot of people are going to want their money back, because the guidance, direction, requirements of academic rigor, cultural norms and curriculum of these holy orders is the reason people send their kids there and not St. Alban's or some godless montessori school or something.

But the schools are independent.

We actually get it, PP. Ignore the prejudiced, anti-Catholic hater. Independent Catholic schools, Episcopal schools like St. Albans and NCS, Quaker schools like Sidwell Friends are all in the same sort of category. Private independent schools with a religious affiliation. The bigot just doesn’t care for Catholics. Quakers and Episcopalians are just fine.

There is no hierarchal structure in the Quaker church. That's the point of the Quaker church.

What about the Episcopal church? There seem to be a lot more Episcopal schools in the area than Quaker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, only if you can't afford elite private or dislike public.

It's Catholic, not private and it's half the price of the privates. It's the school for super athletes whose parents are Catholic or don't mind a catholic education.

Catholic schools ARE private schools, and Gonzaga is not a diocesan school in any event.

It's closer to a private school than most Catholic schools, but it's still part of the Washington arch-diocese and it's managed and partially staffed by ordained Catholic clergy.

Hmm. Weird logic. I guess NCS and STA are not private because of their affiliation with the Episcopal church? I assume Sidwell is not private because it is affiliated with the Quaker church? All of these schools also have chapels and a meeting house on campus.

Public means affiliated and run by and with the government including chartered schools. Everything else is private

In the strictest sense, but catholic schools take direction and often times money from the catholic church. It's a hierarchal institution, there's no free-lancing in the catholic church, and the schools approach reflects that. You can find true independent private schools that take similar educational and cultural stances, but the Catholic schools are ultimately doing it as part of a larger institutional system.

Wrong. The Catholic church does not get involved at all in our Catholic HS. An independent Catholic school will engage in the Catholic teachings, but they do it in the way they find suitable for their students. There is no direction from the Archdiocese on the curriculum. Please don't post things you know nothing about.

Well, they do. And at Gonazaga, specifically, as detailed earlier in this crazy thread, the school defended itself in court from discrimination claims by invoking the clergy clause, saying they are an institution of the Catholic church and their teachers are there to teach the tenets of Catholicism.

I don't know what school your kids go to, and am willing to believe that higher-ups, whether they are from the archdiocese or the Jesuit or Benedictine (let's not forget St. Anselm's!) orders, may not interfere with daily education decisions, but they absolutely play a major role in setting the schools path, the overarching curriculum and the decisions about the style of teaching. In fact, at schools that are Jesuit and especially those that are Benedictine, THIS IS THE SELLING POINT. They maintain very high levels of academic excellence and promote a very specific style of classical education — if those representatives of the Catholic church are not involved at those schools there are a lot of people who are going to want their goddamn money back!

You don't know what you are talking about. Each school is founded/run by a different order of priests or nuns. Gonzaga and Prep are Jesuit. Stone Ridge is part of the Sacred Heart Network of Schools. Visitation is Salesian. SJC is Lasallian. All of these schools are independent in that they aren't under the umbrella of a particular church or archdiocese. Their curriculum is independent...and if you observe closely, they vary even if under that same order (GZ vs GP for example have different curricula). I know you are convinced Catholic schools are somehow under some higher power overseeing them, but other than the parochial schools, that simply is not the case. And if you still claim it is, please provide hard evidence of this. I doubt you have it.

yes, I pointed out the Jesuit and the Benedictine connectoins... didn't know about Salesian... very interesting.

But you're almost there... what are all these orders... what are they?

They are independent. Yay you finally got it!!

No, they're Catholic holy orders whose heads are appointed by the Pope and answer to the Pope. Members of the order act as school presidents or headmasters and the orders require the schools to place order members on the board of trustees. The Catholic church is a heirachy, once again--that's the point! And, once again, if these Jesuit, Benedictine, Lasallian, Salesian, et al schools are "independent" of the Catholic orders that ostensibly control them, a whole lot of people are going to want their money back, because the guidance, direction, requirements of academic rigor, cultural norms and curriculum of these holy orders is the reason people send their kids there and not St. Alban's or some godless montessori school or something.

But the schools are independent.

We actually get it, PP. Ignore the prejudiced, anti-Catholic hater. Independent Catholic schools, Episcopal schools like St. Albans and NCS, Quaker schools like Sidwell Friends are all in the same sort of category. Private independent schools with a religious affiliation. The bigot just doesn’t care for Catholics. Quakers and Episcopalians are just fine.

There is no hierarchal structure in the Quaker church. That's the point of the Quaker church.

What about the Episcopal church? There seem to be a lot more Episcopal schools in the area than Quaker.

There's a lot of Episcopal schools because it was the religion of the rich and powerful in this country for the first two centuries. Same reason the National Cathedral is Episcopal. It's less true now. There is a hierarchy in the Episcopal church, but it's vastly different. More akin to a confederation. There's a presiding bishop (seated at the National Cathedral, as it happens) but there's also a legislative body which sets a lot of church policy, for example, the stance on gay clergy. That was decided by bishops, representing parishes. It's bottom-up instead of top-down.

And, as far as what happens at the individual parish or school level, there's a huge amount of local decision making, by design. Episcopal parishes and schools often have non-Episcopalian ministers... Lutheran ministers for sure are allowed to lead Episcopal services -- possibly some other Protestant denominations as well.

Can you imagine a Catholic church or Catholic school allowing a Lutheran minister to come in and run the religious education and chapel services? No, you can't, because it wouldn't be allowed. I don't know why this is all so controversial, this is literally what the Reformation was about—the split between people of Christian faith who wanted to continue to remain in the strict top-down hierarchy of the Roman church and people of the Christian faith who felt, with a huge amount of variation in exact belief, that faith should be local and more bottom-up than top-down.

And contrary to the troll who is claiming this is anti-Catholic bigotry, I'll say again, the Catholic Church's strong involvement at these schools is THE POINT for a lot of parents. You know what you're getting and you have signed up for it with the expectation that it will be delivered. If you send your kid to an Episcopal school, there's not a lot of guarantee of what you're going to get in terms of religious education... maybe it will be bible-thumping (almost certainly not), maybe it will be evangelical (probably not), conservative (could be, especially this part of the country and south, because there are conservative and liberal wings) or it could super kum-by-yah, social justice warrior nonsense. And if your Catholic school does start to go sideways and weird on shit, you know who to complain to. Who are you going to complain to at Sidwell? There's no one above the school level.

Is it a coincidence that we're seeing threads with titles like "is Gonzaga the it school this year?" and countless other threads moaning and groaning about the inconsistent cultural values at independent places like GDS or allegedly protestant places like Sidwell? St Albans doesn't sound too squishy but there are plenty of other places around the country where the old school Episcopal prep schools have gone seriously SJW.

I do think that Gonzaga and St Johns are ascendant these days, and I'm saying Catholic schools are so appealing right now because of the hierarchy and the involvement. They have consistent values and they are teaching them.

re: Quaker schools: A lot of powerful people in early America were also Quaker, which is why there are a decent number of Quaker schools. Quaker schools are by far the most visible part of the Quaker religion these days—far more people attend a Quaker school than actually attend Quaker services or consider themselves active Quakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, only if you can't afford elite private or dislike public.

It's Catholic, not private and it's half the price of the privates. It's the school for super athletes whose parents are Catholic or don't mind a catholic education.

Catholic schools ARE private schools, and Gonzaga is not a diocesan school in any event.

It's closer to a private school than most Catholic schools, but it's still part of the Washington arch-diocese and it's managed and partially staffed by ordained Catholic clergy.

Hmm. Weird logic. I guess NCS and STA are not private because of their affiliation with the Episcopal church? I assume Sidwell is not private because it is affiliated with the Quaker church? All of these schools also have chapels and a meeting house on campus.

Public means affiliated and run by and with the government including chartered schools. Everything else is private

In the strictest sense, but catholic schools take direction and often times money from the catholic church. It's a hierarchal institution, there's no free-lancing in the catholic church, and the schools approach reflects that. You can find true independent private schools that take similar educational and cultural stances, but the Catholic schools are ultimately doing it as part of a larger institutional system.

Wrong. The Catholic church does not get involved at all in our Catholic HS. An independent Catholic school will engage in the Catholic teachings, but they do it in the way they find suitable for their students. There is no direction from the Archdiocese on the curriculum. Please don't post things you know nothing about.

Well, they do. And at Gonazaga, specifically, as detailed earlier in this crazy thread, the school defended itself in court from discrimination claims by invoking the clergy clause, saying they are an institution of the Catholic church and their teachers are there to teach the tenets of Catholicism.

I don't know what school your kids go to, and am willing to believe that higher-ups, whether they are from the archdiocese or the Jesuit or Benedictine (let's not forget St. Anselm's!) orders, may not interfere with daily education decisions, but they absolutely play a major role in setting the schools path, the overarching curriculum and the decisions about the style of teaching. In fact, at schools that are Jesuit and especially those that are Benedictine, THIS IS THE SELLING POINT. They maintain very high levels of academic excellence and promote a very specific style of classical education — if those representatives of the Catholic church are not involved at those schools there are a lot of people who are going to want their goddamn money back!

You don't know what you are talking about. Each school is founded/run by a different order of priests or nuns. Gonzaga and Prep are Jesuit. Stone Ridge is part of the Sacred Heart Network of Schools. Visitation is Salesian. SJC is Lasallian. All of these schools are independent in that they aren't under the umbrella of a particular church or archdiocese. Their curriculum is independent...and if you observe closely, they vary even if under that same order (GZ vs GP for example have different curricula). I know you are convinced Catholic schools are somehow under some higher power overseeing them, but other than the parochial schools, that simply is not the case. And if you still claim it is, please provide hard evidence of this. I doubt you have it.

yes, I pointed out the Jesuit and the Benedictine connectoins... didn't know about Salesian... very interesting.

But you're almost there... what are all these orders... what are they?

They are independent. Yay you finally got it!!

No, they're Catholic holy orders whose heads are appointed by the Pope and answer to the Pope. Members of the order act as school presidents or headmasters and the orders require the schools to place order members on the board of trustees. The Catholic church is a heirachy, once again--that's the point! And, once again, if these Jesuit, Benedictine, Lasallian, Salesian, et al schools are "independent" of the Catholic orders that ostensibly control them, a whole lot of people are going to want their money back, because the guidance, direction, requirements of academic rigor, cultural norms and curriculum of these holy orders is the reason people send their kids there and not St. Alban's or some godless montessori school or something.

But the schools are independent.

We actually get it, PP. Ignore the prejudiced, anti-Catholic hater. Independent Catholic schools, Episcopal schools like St. Albans and NCS, Quaker schools like Sidwell Friends are all in the same sort of category. Private independent schools with a religious affiliation. The bigot just doesn’t care for Catholics. Quakers and Episcopalians are just fine.

There is no hierarchal structure in the Quaker church. That's the point of the Quaker church.

What about the Episcopal church? There seem to be a lot more Episcopal schools in the area than Quaker.

There's a lot of Episcopal schools because it was the religion of the rich and powerful in this country for the first two centuries. Same reason the National Cathedral is Episcopal. It's less true now. There is a hierarchy in the Episcopal church, but it's vastly different. More akin to a confederation. There's a presiding bishop (seated at the National Cathedral, as it happens) but there's also a legislative body which sets a lot of church policy, for example, the stance on gay clergy. That was decided by bishops, representing parishes. It's bottom-up instead of top-down.

And, as far as what happens at the individual parish or school level, there's a huge amount of local decision making, by design. Episcopal parishes and schools often have non-Episcopalian ministers... Lutheran ministers for sure are allowed to lead Episcopal services -- possibly some other Protestant denominations as well.

Can you imagine a Catholic church or Catholic school allowing a Lutheran minister to come in and run the religious education and chapel services? No, you can't, because it wouldn't be allowed. I don't know why this is all so controversial, this is literally what the Reformation was about—the split between people of Christian faith who wanted to continue to remain in the strict top-down hierarchy of the Roman church and people of the Christian faith who felt, with a huge amount of variation in exact belief, that faith should be local and more bottom-up than top-down.

And contrary to the troll who is claiming this is anti-Catholic bigotry, I'll say again, the Catholic Church's strong involvement at these schools is THE POINT for a lot of parents. You know what you're getting and you have signed up for it with the expectation that it will be delivered. If you send your kid to an Episcopal school, there's not a lot of guarantee of what you're going to get in terms of religious education... maybe it will be bible-thumping (almost certainly not), maybe it will be evangelical (probably not), conservative (could be, especially this part of the country and south, because there are conservative and liberal wings) or it could super kum-by-yah, social justice warrior nonsense. And if your Catholic school does start to go sideways and weird on shit, you know who to complain to. Who are you going to complain to at Sidwell? There's no one above the school level.

Is it a coincidence that we're seeing threads with titles like "is Gonzaga the it school this year?" and countless other threads moaning and groaning about the inconsistent cultural values at independent places like GDS or allegedly protestant places like Sidwell? St Albans doesn't sound too squishy but there are plenty of other places around the country where the old school Episcopal prep schools have gone seriously SJW.

I do think that Gonzaga and St Johns are ascendant these days, and I'm saying Catholic schools are so appealing right now because of the hierarchy and the involvement. They have consistent values and they are teaching them.

re: Quaker schools: A lot of powerful people in early America were also Quaker, which is why there are a decent number of Quaker schools. Quaker schools are by far the most visible part of the Quaker religion these days—far more people attend a Quaker school than actually attend Quaker services or consider themselves active Quakers.

Despite all of your rambling, the fact of the matter is the Catholic high schools are mostly independent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, only if you can't afford elite private or dislike public.

It's Catholic, not private and it's half the price of the privates. It's the school for super athletes whose parents are Catholic or don't mind a catholic education.

Catholic schools ARE private schools, and Gonzaga is not a diocesan school in any event.

It's closer to a private school than most Catholic schools, but it's still part of the Washington arch-diocese and it's managed and partially staffed by ordained Catholic clergy.

Hmm. Weird logic. I guess NCS and STA are not private because of their affiliation with the Episcopal church? I assume Sidwell is not private because it is affiliated with the Quaker church? All of these schools also have chapels and a meeting house on campus.

Public means affiliated and run by and with the government including chartered schools. Everything else is private

In the strictest sense, but catholic schools take direction and often times money from the catholic church. It's a hierarchal institution, there's no free-lancing in the catholic church, and the schools approach reflects that. You can find true independent private schools that take similar educational and cultural stances, but the Catholic schools are ultimately doing it as part of a larger institutional system.

Wrong. The Catholic church does not get involved at all in our Catholic HS. An independent Catholic school will engage in the Catholic teachings, but they do it in the way they find suitable for their students. There is no direction from the Archdiocese on the curriculum. Please don't post things you know nothing about.

Well, they do. And at Gonazaga, specifically, as detailed earlier in this crazy thread, the school defended itself in court from discrimination claims by invoking the clergy clause, saying they are an institution of the Catholic church and their teachers are there to teach the tenets of Catholicism.

I don't know what school your kids go to, and am willing to believe that higher-ups, whether they are from the archdiocese or the Jesuit or Benedictine (let's not forget St. Anselm's!) orders, may not interfere with daily education decisions, but they absolutely play a major role in setting the schools path, the overarching curriculum and the decisions about the style of teaching. In fact, at schools that are Jesuit and especially those that are Benedictine, THIS IS THE SELLING POINT. They maintain very high levels of academic excellence and promote a very specific style of classical education — if those representatives of the Catholic church are not involved at those schools there are a lot of people who are going to want their goddamn money back!

You don't know what you are talking about. Each school is founded/run by a different order of priests or nuns. Gonzaga and Prep are Jesuit. Stone Ridge is part of the Sacred Heart Network of Schools. Visitation is Salesian. SJC is Lasallian. All of these schools are independent in that they aren't under the umbrella of a particular church or archdiocese. Their curriculum is independent...and if you observe closely, they vary even if under that same order (GZ vs GP for example have different curricula). I know you are convinced Catholic schools are somehow under some higher power overseeing them, but other than the parochial schools, that simply is not the case. And if you still claim it is, please provide hard evidence of this. I doubt you have it.

yes, I pointed out the Jesuit and the Benedictine connectoins... didn't know about Salesian... very interesting.

But you're almost there... what are all these orders... what are they?

They are independent. Yay you finally got it!!

No, they're Catholic holy orders whose heads are appointed by the Pope and answer to the Pope. Members of the order act as school presidents or headmasters and the orders require the schools to place order members on the board of trustees. The Catholic church is a heirachy, once again--that's the point! And, once again, if these Jesuit, Benedictine, Lasallian, Salesian, et al schools are "independent" of the Catholic orders that ostensibly control them, a whole lot of people are going to want their money back, because the guidance, direction, requirements of academic rigor, cultural norms and curriculum of these holy orders is the reason people send their kids there and not St. Alban's or some godless montessori school or something.

But the schools are independent.

We actually get it, PP. Ignore the prejudiced, anti-Catholic hater. Independent Catholic schools, Episcopal schools like St. Albans and NCS, Quaker schools like Sidwell Friends are all in the same sort of category. Private independent schools with a religious affiliation. The bigot just doesn’t care for Catholics. Quakers and Episcopalians are just fine.

There is no hierarchal structure in the Quaker church. That's the point of the Quaker church.

What about the Episcopal church? There seem to be a lot more Episcopal schools in the area than Quaker.

There's a lot of Episcopal schools because it was the religion of the rich and powerful in this country for the first two centuries. Same reason the National Cathedral is Episcopal. It's less true now. There is a hierarchy in the Episcopal church, but it's vastly different. More akin to a confederation. There's a presiding bishop (seated at the National Cathedral, as it happens) but there's also a legislative body which sets a lot of church policy, for example, the stance on gay clergy. That was decided by bishops, representing parishes. It's bottom-up instead of top-down.

And, as far as what happens at the individual parish or school level, there's a huge amount of local decision making, by design. Episcopal parishes and schools often have non-Episcopalian ministers... Lutheran ministers for sure are allowed to lead Episcopal services -- possibly some other Protestant denominations as well.

Can you imagine a Catholic church or Catholic school allowing a Lutheran minister to come in and run the religious education and chapel services? No, you can't, because it wouldn't be allowed. I don't know why this is all so controversial, this is literally what the Reformation was about—the split between people of Christian faith who wanted to continue to remain in the strict top-down hierarchy of the Roman church and people of the Christian faith who felt, with a huge amount of variation in exact belief, that faith should be local and more bottom-up than top-down.

And contrary to the troll who is claiming this is anti-Catholic bigotry, I'll say again, the Catholic Church's strong involvement at these schools is THE POINT for a lot of parents. You know what you're getting and you have signed up for it with the expectation that it will be delivered. If you send your kid to an Episcopal school, there's not a lot of guarantee of what you're going to get in terms of religious education... maybe it will be bible-thumping (almost certainly not), maybe it will be evangelical (probably not), conservative (could be, especially this part of the country and south, because there are conservative and liberal wings) or it could super kum-by-yah, social justice warrior nonsense. And if your Catholic school does start to go sideways and weird on shit, you know who to complain to. Who are you going to complain to at Sidwell? There's no one above the school level.

Is it a coincidence that we're seeing threads with titles like "is Gonzaga the it school this year?" and countless other threads moaning and groaning about the inconsistent cultural values at independent places like GDS or allegedly protestant places like Sidwell? St Albans doesn't sound too squishy but there are plenty of other places around the country where the old school Episcopal prep schools have gone seriously SJW.

I do think that Gonzaga and St Johns are ascendant these days, and I'm saying Catholic schools are so appealing right now because of the hierarchy and the involvement. They have consistent values and they are teaching them.

re: Quaker schools: A lot of powerful people in early America were also Quaker, which is why there are a decent number of Quaker schools. Quaker schools are by far the most visible part of the Quaker religion these days—far more people attend a Quaker school than actually attend Quaker services or consider themselves active Quakers.

Despite all of your rambling, the fact of the matter is the Catholic high schools are mostly independent.

Tell me you don't understand Catholicism without telling me you don't understand Catholicism!