Honestly, how do you manage dual income marriage with kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both DH and I are in highly intellectual jobs that come with a lot of intellectual stimulations, prestige, fun and stress, but don't pay that much. Think of academics, economist at international organizations, etc. We make about 400k in total, evenly distributed. So we are comfortable, but neither of us can afford to quit - we can't afford the same lifestyle with single salary, the sunk cost of PhDs, and all the fun and meaning come with our jobs.

The problem is, we work long hours and travel a lot for work. With two kids, despite a lot of help around the house, we still find ourselves increasingly arguing about who should take the kids, do the chores, etc. We complain about not spending enough time together, but we just can't make it because one of us is either traveling or recovering from the travel...

I'm afraid we are growing apart... I'm the woman and feel like that I already sacrifice a lot of my own time to support him. He just wants me to be the funny sexy available girlfriend whenever he has time. I often just want to take a nap, recover, catch up with work, because I just took the lion share of everything while he was away...

How do you manage dual income marriage? If either of us give up our job, are we destined to separate at some point? It is just so stressful...

I couldn’t even make it through your post, let alone this entire thread. If someone who can say the bolded above in all seriousness is what passes for “highly intellectual” these days, our society is even worse off than I feared.

400k is not a lot to raise a family in the DMV, certainly not enough to afford a nice home, nanny, tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both DH and I are in highly intellectual jobs that come with a lot of intellectual stimulations, prestige, fun and stress, but don't pay that much. Think of academics, economist at international organizations, etc. We make about 400k in total, evenly distributed. So we are comfortable, but neither of us can afford to quit - we can't afford the same lifestyle with single salary, the sunk cost of PhDs, and all the fun and meaning come with our jobs.

Honestly this is so out of touch. 400k salaries is not low pay. I’m literally rolling my eyes at you. Just hire more help.

This is likely before taxes and thus not that high in the DMV especially if kids are younger and need after care, early care or god forbid day care costs. I am a fed married to a fed and our before tax income is mid 300s and we are just making it...only because we both work from home right now is anything manageable.

Listen, WE ALL LIVE here. 400K is “that high” anywhere. If you’re “just making it” with 300K household income it’s because you’re incompetent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both DH and I are in highly intellectual jobs that come with a lot of intellectual stimulations, prestige, fun and stress, but don't pay that much. Think of academics, economist at international organizations, etc. We make about 400k in total, evenly distributed. So we are comfortable, but neither of us can afford to quit - we can't afford the same lifestyle with single salary, the sunk cost of PhDs, and all the fun and meaning come with our jobs.

Honestly this is so out of touch. 400k salaries is not low pay. I’m literally rolling my eyes at you. Just hire more help.

It's not a lot in DC, especially if your kid attends private school.

[Anonymous]

About World Bank and similar jobs, it’s very hard to get out, rest and get back in. Finance and development sector jobs are hierarchical. It took time for you to reach to a place where you are really putting your skills to use. If you leave the workforce in your prime to take care of family, you won’t come back to those key positions. So OP and like women have to keep it going. Academia is the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you're both too impressed with your jobs where no one will remember you a week after you're gone.

+1000, especially since at around 200k per job, most of the prestige of their job is simply being able to say something like "I'm a professor of economics at GW" or "I'm the director at XYZ nonprofit." It's the kind of thing that will impress a certain population of people in DC and maybe some family and friends outside the area, but ultimately is not that big a deal. They aren't surgeons or entrepreneurs or some job where other people's lives or livelihoods depend on them showing up to work.

OP, many of us who had jobs like this ultimately realized this and adjusted our careers and lives to focus more on family. My DH shifted to a government job where he still does work he finds meaningful but only travels a couple times a year and has very standard hours. I moved to a 30 hour a week schedule where I don't travel at all, and rather than owning a few projects where I am the ultimate person responsible for them, I consult on a larger number of projects and am more of a specialist. We both still find our careers fulfilling, but making these shifts cost us about 50k a year in income but gained us a huge amount of flexibility and time. We now take real family vacations, we have regular date nights, we are both more relaxed and sleep better and eat better. Also, as our kids have gotten older we've come to see this transition as a kind of obvious precursor to retirement -- we see our lives more expansively and recognize work is one component of a fulfilling life but far from the only one.

I think one day you are going to wake up and look at your career and wonder why you gave up so much for so little.

I find the work that I do intellectually fascinating and the hours I put in beyond 40 have opened up so many opportunities I wouldn't have had otherwise. I'm not trying to impress anyone, I just really care about what I do. If that's not where you're coming from, of course it makes sense to prioritize being less stressed out. But if you do, it's a real loss to give up the potential for career advancement, which affects you not just now but for the years when your kids are off living their own lives. Being intentional about how you want to spend your time is great, but the answer isn't necessarily going to be working less.

Then don't have kids, or have kids with someone who will take up the slack so that you can work your extra hours. There is no scenario where all the adults pursue their intellectial passions >40 hours a week and the kids also get what they need.

My husband works about 40 hours a week. But what I was responding to said very little about the kids, it was about how it's so nice to be more relaxed and sleep and eat better, not about the kids, and how unless you're a surgeon your work just isn't that important and you're doing it to impress people. And that's just not my experience at all. I'm happy to trade off for more stress because I really like what I do.

No, I'm the one who wrote that and it's about all of it. Being more relaxed and eating/sleeping better is directly related to the kids, and the marriage. You only have so many hours in the day and you chose to have a family. So the trade off is not just about what YOU are willing to sacrifice for your job. When you carry that stress around because your job is so important to you, your family has to carry it too. Maybe with some jobs that weight feels worth it to the family. If you are saving lives or in a leadership role where you are having a huge impact, your spouse and kids might be able to feel like they are contributing to that with their sacrifice too, and that can make the family trade offs easier to bear. This is how many military families function.

But if it's just a job you personally find intellectually stimulation and enjoy doing, but where the social importance is more mundane, your spouse and kids are unlikely to feel like what they sacrifice for your career is worthwhile. They'll just resent it.

NP but I just wanted to say that I appreciate the wisdom in this post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is one of you in World Bank? Divorce rate is so high there, so many single Moms. That’s just what you sign up for. You are trying to be the exceptional. You just need to make some exceptional efforts, with no guarantee of success. Life is an adventure, isn’t it?

We know a lot of world bank, foreign service, state department and diplomatic families. There are also professors and think tank guys who would fit into this category. I’m sure each of these people think they are solving world problems and doing something very important and “intellectual”. They are but they are also a dime a dozen.

Agreed. If you are in your 40s and in DC, you know and understand this unless you are so myopic and self-important you refuse to see it. These jobs feel very sexy and interesting when you are 32 and you get to travel to cool places a lot and your work is policy-focused and feels very relevant to what is happening in the world. But unless you are one of the very, very few on a stratospheric rise to the kind of role where you are on the news all the time or publishing or getting political appointments, eventually you realize that the difference between these jobs and being in upper middle management at some private sector corporation making widgets or breakfast cereal? It's just a sliver of prestige and and extra degree. And the person at the widget company probably makes more, or lives in some midwest town where 400k means you are rich-rich.

It may be disappointing to learn this for all us ambitious, over-educated, high minded DC professionals, but it turns out that yes, it's family and marriage and personal relationships and what you do outside of work that matters the most. EVEN when your job is Important in the way that some jobs in DC are important. You don't have to quit but you do have to learn that you can have the sexy, fun job with the international travel and the work drinks and dinners, or you can have the really stable, good home life and marriage. But you can't have them both at the same time. Especially not if you married someone with the same kind of job, and none of these jobs pay enough to afford the conveniences that would make it all mesh. So you pick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both DH and I are in highly intellectual jobs that come with a lot of intellectual stimulations, prestige, fun and stress, but don't pay that much. Think of academics, economist at international organizations, etc. We make about 400k in total, evenly distributed. So we are comfortable, but neither of us can afford to quit - we can't afford the same lifestyle with single salary, the sunk cost of PhDs, and all the fun and meaning come with our jobs.

Honestly this is so out of touch. 400k salaries is not low pay. I’m literally rolling my eyes at you. Just hire more help.

It's not a lot in DC, especially if your kid attends private school.

Have fewer kids, or don't send them to private school. How do people who are smart enough to get these jobs not understand basic math?

It's not like it's a surprise to discover that these jobs at WB or IMF or in academia top out around 200k. And even if you didn't anticipate the recent increasing private school tuition, when you had your kids you knew that was going to be at least 20-30k/yr. But if you knew those things, AND knew what kind of lifestyle these jobs require, and you went ahead and had 2-3 kids without having a plan for school and childcare? Or if you didn't make very specific choices that would enable you to maintain this lifestyle (buying in an excellent suburban school district as soon as you could, setting aside money for childcare and private when you were still childless and had some savings to spare, etc.) that is your own fault.

Many people who wind up in these jobs just come from money and that's how it works. They can afford to outsource more because their parents bought their house or they have a trust fund. Or they are married to someone who makes way more, a doctor or Big Law attorney who is making 400-500k on their own (or more), so they have the money to make their lives easier.

It really just sounds like OP didn't pay attention to the details of how lives like this work and just plowed ahead assuming it would all work out. And now it actually pretty much has, but it's tougher than she expected because it turns out kids do, in fact, need parenting and her husband is a typical husband and does some but not the bulk of that parenting, and she is experiencing a pretty typical decline in libido after having several kids and dealing with constant work stress. She doesn't understand why getting exactly what she wanted isn't more fun, and it's because she made all these choices without running the numbers. That's her fault.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love that OP has to throw in how "intellectual" they both are, as if that somehow makes this different from many other situations. My oldest is a police officer married to an RN and they have the same difficulties with balancing shift work and kid responsibilities. And somehow they manage to do this on somewhere less than $200K a year in the DMV.

I just wrote that I am about a decade ahead of OP’s family timeline. I have two masters, including one from Harvard. OP is probably trying to say she also has an impressive career. I was very ambitious and career oriented. DH and I were similar when we became parents. It is hard for both parents to stay in the same pace with children.

And just like nobody cares about OP’s allegedly impressive job, nobody cares about your two masters degrees. Not even the one from HARVARD!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We make combined close to $500k- but we both WAH. That’s how it’s manageable.

I started WAH in 2005. Spouse had a day or so WAH- but then since 2020 (Covid) he has full-time WAH (consultant; manager).

Same here. Evenly distributed salaries, HHI almost $500K. Working from home (since COVID) has been a lifesaver for us. It happened to coincide with our kids being older so when our nanny moved to another state when her husband was deployed, we were able to keep things going without a nanny because we were both home and kids were more independent.

HOWEVER, although we maintained cleaners, nanny had done all kid and bedding laundry, plus had helped shepherding kids to after school activities. I'm debating getting more of a house manager now who can help with laundry and driving kids around after school.

OP what could you outsource to help? We have cleaners and a gardener right now, both of which I highly recommend. We like cooking so I can't imagine hiring a chef/ordering pre-packaged meals but we have friends who do and they're very happy. Would sending out laundry help? What else do you find yourself spending time on that you wish you didn't?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both DH and I are in highly intellectual jobs that come with a lot of intellectual stimulations, prestige, fun and stress, but don't pay that much. Think of academics, economist at international organizations, etc. We make about 400k in total, evenly distributed. So we are comfortable, but neither of us can afford to quit - we can't afford the same lifestyle with single salary, the sunk cost of PhDs, and all the fun and meaning come with our jobs.

Honestly this is so out of touch. 400k salaries is not low pay. I’m literally rolling my eyes at you. Just hire more help.

It's not a lot in DC, especially if your kid attends private school.

don't send your kids to private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both DH and I are in highly intellectual jobs that come with a lot of intellectual stimulations, prestige, fun and stress, but don't pay that much. Think of academics, economist at international organizations, etc. We make about 400k in total, evenly distributed. So we are comfortable, but neither of us can afford to quit - we can't afford the same lifestyle with single salary, the sunk cost of PhDs, and all the fun and meaning come with our jobs.

Honestly this is so out of touch. 400k salaries is not low pay. I’m literally rolling my eyes at you. Just hire more help.

It's not a lot in DC, especially if your kid attends private school.

Have fewer kids, or don't send them to private school. How do people who are smart enough to get these jobs not understand basic math?

It's not like it's a surprise to discover that these jobs at WB or IMF or in academia top out around 200k. And even if you didn't anticipate the recent increasing private school tuition, when you had your kids you knew that was going to be at least 20-30k/yr. But if you knew those things, AND knew what kind of lifestyle these jobs require, and you went ahead and had 2-3 kids without having a plan for school and childcare? Or if you didn't make very specific choices that would enable you to maintain this lifestyle (buying in an excellent suburban school district as soon as you could, setting aside money for childcare and private when you were still childless and had some savings to spare, etc.) that is your own fault.

Many people who wind up in these jobs just come from money and that's how it works. They can afford to outsource more because their parents bought their house or they have a trust fund. Or they are married to someone who makes way more, a doctor or Big Law attorney who is making 400-500k on their own (or more), so they have the money to make their lives easier.

It really just sounds like OP didn't pay attention to the details of how lives like this work and just plowed ahead assuming it would all work out. And now it actually pretty much has, but it's tougher than she expected because it turns out kids do, in fact, need parenting and her husband is a typical husband and does some but not the bulk of that parenting, and she is experiencing a pretty typical decline in libido after having several kids and dealing with constant work stress. She doesn't understand why getting exactly what she wanted isn't more fun, and it's because she made all these choices without running the numbers. That's her fault.

Thank you. Well said.

[Anonymous]

So only trust fund babies can afford to have a career in international development and academia? Fact is that poor kids are those can tolerate PhD journeys and value the opportunities of world bank/imf/academia, because 150k fresh from grad school is a lot of money to poor kids. Trust fund babies will not lift a finger for this low pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love that OP has to throw in how "intellectual" they both are, as if that somehow makes this different from many other situations. My oldest is a police officer married to an RN and they have the same difficulties with balancing shift work and kid responsibilities. And somehow they manage to do this on somewhere less than $200K a year in the DMV.

I just wrote that I am about a decade ahead of OP’s family timeline. I have two masters, including one from Harvard. OP is probably trying to say she also has an impressive career. I was very ambitious and career oriented. DH and I were similar when we became parents. It is hard for both parents to stay in the same pace with children.

And just like nobody cares about OP’s allegedly impressive job, nobody cares about your two masters degrees. Not even the one from HARVARD!

No ones donating to Harvard anymore; it’s lost its way 10 years ago when it went too soft and woke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love that OP has to throw in how "intellectual" they both are, as if that somehow makes this different from many other situations. My oldest is a police officer married to an RN and they have the same difficulties with balancing shift work and kid responsibilities. And somehow they manage to do this on somewhere less than $200K a year in the DMV.

I just wrote that I am about a decade ahead of OP’s family timeline. I have two masters, including one from Harvard. OP is probably trying to say she also has an impressive career. I was very ambitious and career oriented. DH and I were similar when we became parents. It is hard for both parents to stay in the same pace with children.

And just like nobody cares about OP’s allegedly impressive job, nobody cares about your two masters degrees. Not even the one from HARVARD!

You care, because you keep posting. Thou dost protest too much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m probably a decade ahead of OP’s family timeline. DH and I earned around the same, had demanding jobs and had two kids. I was drowning. I was the default parent. DH helped with household chores but I was alone with all the invisible kid duties whether it was buying diapers, sippy cups, car seats, clothing, shoes, making appointments, going to appointments, making play date plans, RSVPing to birthday parties, buying gifts for birthday parties, buying age appropriate books, puzzles, toys, etc etc etc. DH just did none of this planning or researching. He would help with dishes and bath and would take kids to sports practice or game if he was home. If he wasn’t home, it was on me. If he had a work event, he just went to the work event. It didn’t matter if it strained me.

Eventually I cut down and stopped working when I had the third child. The third child tipped us over. I originally planned to take a break and go back to work but then Covid happened. Now my kids are older but they seem to need me more than ever. Instead of an annual dentist appointment, we have to go to the orthodontist every month. My kid had braces, then a retainer and then Invisalign. My kids used to have one practice and one game for sports per week. Now that they are older, they have sports 5x per week. And now that my baby is no longer a baby, that third child is starting to have afternoon activities.

OP keeps mentioning her husband’s highly intellectual job. At some point, no one cares, especially the wife. My DH now earns seven figures, gets asked to chair conferences, join boards, constantly asked to do random crap for companies. What used to be prestigious now is just a nuisance to me and feels selfish to me as I want to go back to work. It is hard not to be resentful.

Have you ever actually TRIED to reset with your spouse? Have you bothered at all to say "this isn't working for me"? Do you ever make your needs known?

I am sort of appalled by the lack of self-esteem amongst highly motivated, intellectual, high-earning women in this thread.

I do not lack self esteem. I put my kids first above my career and spouse. I used to miss my kid’s bedtime almost daily because I could not get home early enough. When I got a less demanding job when I had two kids, I felt like I was not putting my all at work and felt like I was outsourcing my parenting life out. I am sure DH thought he was doing his part. When he is home, he is helpful. He is will play with kids while I make dinner or he will do dishes while I get kids to bed. He has always been and still is a hands on dad. The problem is he has an unpredictable demanding job. I know most people will not sympathize since Dh earns a few million per year. They will say I should be the default parent. When we first started, we had a similar dynamic as OP. This post brings back a lot of bad memories for me!

Quit and go work for a quant fund.
At least you’ll get paid. If you’re good.

This.

Go private sector if you’re such an over achiever Op.