Princeton eating clubs in the news

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

I agree and wonder what the point of these "eating clubs" (ridiculous name, BTW) is. Why not just have a huge dining hall where everyone goes to eat, socialize, etc., and then parties in various dorms/apts.? I went to a school with no Greek system, eating clubs, etc. and that's how we did it. Everyone partied together, ate together, etc. No problems and no elitism.

The name dates back to the 1800s and, ironically, the eating clubs emerged as an alternative to fraternities that had been prohibited.

Supposedly, when he was president of Princeton, Woodrow Wilson wanted to replace the eating clubs with a system of residential colleges modeled after Oxbridge. The trustees refused to go along with his suggestion (later adopted by Yale) and Wilson was so annoyed that he decided to enter politics instead.

The food in the eating clubs can be excellent and certainly better than standard university dining hall-fare. The clubs also have more space for parties than dorms and apartments.

Even if Princeton got rid of eating clubs tomorrow, and required students to live and eat in residential colleges for four years, it would still be an elitist institution. That comes with being the top-ranked undergraduate institution in the country. The benefit would be that the university would clearly be responsible for what takes place in the colleges, as opposed to taking the flaky position that the clubs are independent of the university and outside their control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

I agree and wonder what the point of these "eating clubs" (ridiculous name, BTW) is. Why not just have a huge dining hall where everyone goes to eat, socialize, etc., and then parties in various dorms/apts.? I went to a school with no Greek system, eating clubs, etc. and that's how we did it. Everyone partied together, ate together, etc. No problems and no elitism.

The name dates back to the 1800s and, ironically, the eating clubs emerged as an alternative to fraternities that had been prohibited.

Supposedly, when he was president of Princeton, Woodrow Wilson wanted to replace the eating clubs with a system of residential colleges modeled after Oxbridge. The trustees refused to go along with his suggestion (later adopted by Yale) and Wilson was so annoyed that he decided to enter politics instead.

The food in the eating clubs can be excellent and certainly better than standard university dining hall-fare. The clubs also have more space for parties than dorms and apartments.

Even if Princeton got rid of eating clubs tomorrow, and required students to live and eat in residential colleges for four years, it would still be an elitist institution. That comes with being the top-ranked undergraduate institution in the country. The benefit would be that the university would clearly be responsible for what takes place in the colleges, as opposed to taking the flaky position that the clubs are independent of the university and outside their control.

No, you have it backwards. Read Stover at Yale. The dining clubs go back and model the Oxbridge style of dining hall wherein male students ate in the dining hall within their own college. They didn't go to a central dining service. The very early college campuses in America did not have dorms, so the young men selected "digs" and rented out flats together. Then came the food question. So what they did was create "eating or dining clubs" and hire out the cooking. These dining clubs were often in a different spot than the digs. They eventually became known as "Skull & Bones", etc. Owen Johnson describes in Stover that the selection for the clubs was not "bickering" it was they (club members) picked you. It was a brutal system and a character named Brockhurst in STover comes to question all of this and our heroine , Stover, ultimately agrees that the dining clubs were wrong. The dining clubs eventually became today's frats and sororities. They still exist on most elite campuses. When I was at Harvard the top dining club was the The Porcellian - all men. I don't know if they ever let women in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

+1.

You don't have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize. Plenty of other "decent' places to eat, study, and socialize" on the campus that have a more relaxed atmosphere and less of the country club vibe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

+1.

You don't have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize. Plenty of other "decent' places to eat, study, and socialize" on the campus that have a more relaxed atmosphere and less of the country club vibe.

Oh, I get it. Separate but equal.

[Anonymous]

As a guy I always thought the guys who shamed women for having sex were assholes. Why would you do anything to discourage women from having sex!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

+1.

You don't have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize. Plenty of other "decent' places to eat, study, and socialize" on the campus that have a more relaxed atmosphere and less of the country club vibe.

Oh, I get it. Separate but equal.

No, not really. Plenty of Princeton students opt for the sign-in clubs, a dining hall option (often if they are an RA) or to go independent because they are choosing an environment that is a better fit for them, though any given student is free to choose the bicker route. And the clubs do serve a purpose of providing a social scene on campus, as well as providing a sized grouping of people that is psychologically easier to manage. The University provides that freshman and sophomore year by grouping students into residential colleges, but upperclass housing is a separate free for all, so club membership can serve to replace that.

Which isn't to say that there aren't issues with bicker and the club system, there are, but like most issues this is more nuanced than it may at first appear.

[Anonymous]

Both of the gentlemen who stepped down from their positions were senior athletes. One is a wrestler, and the other plays water polo. There is and always has been a negative strain of machismo among some in college athletics.

I am certain that universities already focus on character education, but I think that today's college students could nevertheless benefit from a little more talk about maturity, respect, courtesy, leadership, responsibility, and morality.

[Anonymous]

Not surprised. The Princeton eating club culture (to be fair, it's really just a couple of clubs that are offenders) is out of control.

Signed,

seen it firsthand

[Anonymous]

But alas, the situation is worse at my alma mater:

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/08/are-harvards-final-clubs-on-the-wrong-side-of-history/375699/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

The Daily Princetonian frequently makes that exact argument to no avail. The answer is that, if you don't want to "bicker," you typically join a low-key "sign-in" club that just has a lottery system, keep a university meal plan, or become an "independent" who lives in a dorm/apartment with a kitchen.

Coming from a middle-class family and a public high school, I considered the eating clubs a negative when deciding whether to attend Princeton, but I still had a very good time there. I'd love to see the university force the hand of the "bicker" clubs and put an end to the practice, but I was still friends with some of their members - just outside those clubs. Tiger Inn was the rowdiest club decades ago, and it sounds like nothing has changed.

"Bicker" (i.e., selective eating clubs) came close to ending about 30 years ago, around the same time that a longstanding effort to force certain all-make clubs to become co-ed was coming to fruition. For many years, selectivity and the persistence of some all mail clubs were seen as closely related, that the club system needed to become fully modern. Unfortunately, when the all-male clubs (all of which were selective but not comprising all the selective clubs) went co-ed, it inadventently provided new life to the old system of selectivity, as many women were very attracted by selectivity. It's interesting that not one club since 1980 has converted from selective to non-selective (sign in/lottery) status, which I think is unfortunate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

I agree and wonder what the point of these "eating clubs" (ridiculous name, BTW) is. Why not just have a huge dining hall where everyone goes to eat, socialize, etc., and then parties in various dorms/apts.? I went to a school with no Greek system, eating clubs, etc. and that's how we did it. Everyone partied together, ate together, etc. No problems and no elitism.

The name dates back to the 1800s and, ironically, the eating clubs emerged as an alternative to fraternities that had been prohibited.

Supposedly, when he was president of Princeton, Woodrow Wilson wanted to replace the eating clubs with a system of residential colleges modeled after Oxbridge. The trustees refused to go along with his suggestion (later adopted by Yale) and Wilson was so annoyed that he decided to enter politics instead.

The food in the eating clubs can be excellent and certainly better than standard university dining hall-fare. The clubs also have more space for parties than dorms and apartments.

Even if Princeton got rid of eating clubs tomorrow, and required students to live and eat in residential colleges for four years, it would still be an elitist institution. That comes with being the top-ranked undergraduate institution in the country. The benefit would be that the university would clearly be responsible for what takes place in the colleges, as opposed to taking the flaky position that the clubs are independent of the university and outside their control.

No, you have it backwards. Read Stover at Yale. The dining clubs go back and model the Oxbridge style of dining hall wherein male students ate in the dining hall within their own college. They didn't go to a central dining service. The very early college campuses in America did not have dorms, so the young men selected "digs" and rented out flats together. Then came the food question. So what they did was create "eating or dining clubs" and hire out the cooking. These dining clubs were often in a different spot than the digs. They eventually became known as "Skull & Bones", etc. Owen Johnson describes in Stover that the selection for the clubs was not "bickering" it was they (club members) picked you. It was a brutal system and a character named Brockhurst in STover comes to question all of this and our heroine , Stover, ultimately agrees that the dining clubs were wrong. The dining clubs eventually became today's frats and sororities. They still exist on most elite campuses. When I was at Harvard the top dining club was the The Porcellian - all men. I don't know if they ever let women in.

Historians write that one of FDR's lifelong disappointments wasa being blackballed at Porcellian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

+1.

You don't have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize. Plenty of other "decent' places to eat, study, and socialize" on the campus that have a more relaxed atmosphere and less of the country club vibe.

Oh, I get it. Separate but equal.

No, not really. Plenty of Princeton students opt for the sign-in clubs, a dining hall option (often if they are an RA) or to go independent because they are choosing an environment that is a better fit for them, though any given student is free to choose the bicker route. And the clubs do serve a purpose of providing a social scene on campus, as well as providing a sized grouping of people that is psychologically easier to manage. The University provides that freshman and sophomore year by grouping students into residential colleges, but upperclass housing is a separate free for all, so club membership can serve to replace that.

Which isn't to say that there aren't issues with bicker and the club system, there are, but like most issues this is more nuanced than it may at first appear.

Of course, Princeton could easily continue residential colleges into junior and senior year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

+1.

You don't have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize. Plenty of other "decent' places to eat, study, and socialize" on the campus that have a more relaxed atmosphere and less of the country club vibe.

Oh, I get it. Separate but equal.

No, not really. Plenty of Princeton students opt for the sign-in clubs, a dining hall option (often if they are an RA) or to go independent because they are choosing an environment that is a better fit for them, though any given student is free to choose the bicker route. And the clubs do serve a purpose of providing a social scene on campus, as well as providing a sized grouping of people that is psychologically easier to manage. The University provides that freshman and sophomore year by grouping students into residential colleges, but upperclass housing is a separate free for all, so club membership can serve to replace that.

Which isn't to say that there aren't issues with bicker and the club system, there are, but like most issues this is more nuanced than it may at first appear.

Of course, Princeton could easily continue residential colleges into junior and senior year.

It could, but the moment probably has passed for Princeton to build a lot of student dormitories around the residential college concept. If it ever went to four-year residential colleges, it would highlight how they don't quite have the same distinct identities as the residential colleges at Yale, which went on a building spree after it had embraced the concept.

So, like them or not, the eating clubs remain part of what differentiates Princeton from other schools. As far as I'm aware, TI and Cottage have always been the rowdy ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coed or not, I don't get how you work your ass of in high school and go through a rigorous and selective admissions application process, to then have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize.

+1.

You don't have to "interview" for a decent place to eat, study and socialize. Plenty of other "decent' places to eat, study, and socialize" on the campus that have a more relaxed atmosphere and less of the country club vibe.

Oh, I get it. Separate but equal.

No, not really. Plenty of Princeton students opt for the sign-in clubs, a dining hall option (often if they are an RA) or to go independent because they are choosing an environment that is a better fit for them, though any given student is free to choose the bicker route. And the clubs do serve a purpose of providing a social scene on campus, as well as providing a sized grouping of people that is psychologically easier to manage. The University provides that freshman and sophomore year by grouping students into residential colleges, but upperclass housing is a separate free for all, so club membership can serve to replace that.

Which isn't to say that there aren't issues with bicker and the club system, there are, but like most issues this is more nuanced than it may at first appear.

Of course, Princeton could easily continue residential colleges into junior and senior year.

It could, but the moment probably has passed for Princeton to build a lot of student dormitories around the residential college concept. If it ever went to four-year residential colleges, it would highlight how they don't quite have the same distinct identities as the residential colleges at Yale, which went on a building spree after it had embraced the concept.

So, like them or not, the eating clubs remain part of what differentiates Princeton from other schools. As far as I'm aware, TI and Cottage have always been the rowdy ones.

....which used to be called "Frottage Club" back in the day.