Transitioning from Progressive to Traditional

[Anonymous]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought one of the ideas of a progressive education was educating the "whole child" and that kids were expected to learn at different paces and in different ways.

If that is the case, it ought to accommodate children of any learning style. I also do not think that progressive means that the teaching is not structured. If by structured you mean kids sitting in a classroom in desks that are in rows with a pre-determined curriculum and specific homework assignments that follow the textbook, then I guess you could say it is not structured. But as I understand it it's not like it is a free-for-all. I think the teachers try to pick up on what sparks the child's interest and then encourages him/her to pursue it in ways that feed off of the child's own motivating factors. This is in contrast to a set curriculum which uses the same materials, approach, etc. to get each kid interested.

I am wondering what is really at the core of your unease. It can't really be just that he doesn't pick up a book on his own or want to do the science fair. Do you have friends with kids his age that seem to know more? Or would you feel more comfortable if he did bring home homework and give some sort of hard proof that he is learning? I don't want to sit here and arm-chair analyze what's going on, but it almost seems as if you just feel you don't have enough "proof" that he's learning. And the fact that he is having fun in a way almost backs up your suspicions that he may not be.

Just some things to think about. Your son may be doing quite well in the progressive program and in theory you may be all for such an approach -- but in practice you may be the one who needs a more traditional approach because it offers traditional, concrete ways to measure whether the kids are learning what the teachers are teaching them.

Am I totally off the mark?

[Anonymous]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought one of the ideas of a progressive education was educating the "whole child" and that kids were expected to learn at different paces and in different ways.

I think that many schools strive to achieve the goal mentioned by PP. However, in reality, it is not easy -especially at the lower grades when there is such a huge difference developmentally. In our child's 1st grade class there are 20+ kids ranging from just learning to read to kids reading Harry Potter books. Yes, the teachers try to teach to each child, but many times the ones who get how to add/subtract spend much of their Math time just going back to their Harry Potter books. With only 2 or 3 teachers and 20 something kids it isn't possible to truly teach to each child's particular level. It's a bit of a disappointment for us. We're hoping that the issue will resolve as the children get older and hopefully the gap between them diminishes.

I think if we had it to do again, we would choose a traditional/structured elementary school for our child and then a progressive middle/high school.

[Anonymous]

PP, I understand your disappointment with your current progressive school, but why do you think a traditional school would be any different? In a traditional school that adheres closely to a text and all the students are pretty much taught the same thing, the kids who already have mastered addition and subtraction in first grade still aren't going to be challenged. The problem of a lack of effective differentiation is a huge issue in both progressive and traditional classrooms. Keeping 20 unique individuals engaged and challenged at their level of learning is extremely difficult no matter what philosophy a teacher or school embraces.

[Anonymous]

9:24, are you the OP?

Sorry you have been somewhat disappointed. If you are the OP, I do think that you can probably relax a little. The type of anxiety you are feeling is normal, and I would suggest talking to some parents of kids in the higher grades at your school and, even better, parents of kids who have graduated. I would put my money on them saying that they had similar concerns earlier on but that in the end everything was totally fine. I do think it all evens out and, seriously, I don't know any parents who have sent their kids to less traditional programs (here, in NY and CA) who in hindsight were glad that they did it, despite some bumps or insecurities along the way.

I think bottom line is that we all tend to have some insecurities about our kids' schools. If all signs point to your school succeeding in what it does, I would stay with it and let things unfold a bit more. You did mention in the original post that the school was only a 5 on the traditional - progressive scale, and if that is the case, I am not sure the move just to move a bit further down the scale would be worth it.

So, the steps I would take in your position would be to: 1) talk to parents of kids in the upper classes and parents of kids who have graduated and gone on to other schools; 2) talk to the teachers and see what his attitude/behavior is while in school and if it is consistent or inconsistent with what you pick up at home; 3) if you feel he is not being challenged enough in a certain area, I would ask the teachers if they could share some ideas of how that could be done both within and outside of the school setting; and finally, I would try to relax a little and see how things unfold. I don't mean ignore your instincts - just to give him a little more time before uprooting him to see if it works out. If you do end up moving him and he ends up not enjoying school in his new atmosphere, you could have a whole other mess on your hands. If he hates it, he is not even going to want to go let alone sit there at a desk all day and learn. He might "do as he is asked", but if he really does not enjoy it you might end up with a whole other set of issues you will need to then deal with...

Not trying to be totally negative here, just trying to be realistic. And as you said in your original post, you don't want to get in a situation where you are possibly trying to fix something that ain't broke....

Just my two cents.

[Anonymous]

whoops, PP here - I just realized a typo in my post, I don't know any parents who were disappointed - all in hindsight seemed glad that they chose this path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:9:24, are you the OP?

OP here. No, I'm not the 9:24 poster. But, it sounds like there are other parents out there that have similar questions/concerns.

I appreciate all your posts. Thank you! They are definitely food for thought.

We aren't impatient (at least not on this topic), and aren't anxious to move our son. Definitely don't want to go through the ridiculous admission process yet again. And just to be clear, we are not at all unhappy with or disappointed in our son's current school. My concern is mainly with setting high enough expectations (or even just sufficient/ENOUGH expectations) for a kid who wants to learn only what he wants to learn. The flexibility of his current school allows him to do just that. But will he (specifically him, versus kids at the school in general) eventually get to the other subjects with the appropriate degree of proficiency? My understanding is that in a traditional school, everyone has to learn everything in a rather orderly fashion. Sounds boring and not at all individual, I know. But I think it ensures to some extent that the kids are getting the foundation early enough.

Again, we're not planning any sudden moves. Just trying to think through it.

[Anonymous]

I'd like to pass along a great way for children to learn who don't particularly like to read: play Jim Weiss CDs in the car as you travel from one errand to another. Jim Weiss is a wonderful storyteller who has CDs full of stories based on Greek myths, Shakespeare's plays, fairy tales, etc. Here is his website: http://www.greathall.com/. His stories are not short, but they are not so long that they can't be finished over the course of a 15- or 20-minute errand. We have often sat in our driveway waiting for a story to end!

[Anonymous]

PP, I understand your disappointment with your current progressive school, but why do you think a traditional school would be any different?

One difference is that the traditional school would have more discipline (I hope). Also, I would like a certain standard for academic achievement that is not dictated by the make-up of the students in the class. It seems that the academic standards are a little looser and the behavioral expectations a lot looser than I'd hoped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

PP, I understand your disappointment with your current progressive school, but why do you think a traditional school would be any different?

One difference is that the traditional school would have more discipline (I hope). Also, I would like a certain standard for academic achievement that is not dictated by the make-up of the students in the class. It seems that the academic standards are a little looser and the behavioral expectations a lot looser than I'd hoped.

What kinds of behaviors go on that seem to need more intervention? Mean stuff? Am curious as we are considering progressive pre-school.

[Anonymous]

I'll start out by saying I haven't observed classes in "traditional" and "progressive" k-12 schools so take this observation FWIW. But I used to teach at the college level and at that level control over the classroom is all about the message the professor sets. It doesn't matter whether you're traditional or progressive, if the students know you're a pushover they'll take advantage of it.

Similarly, I've met liberal parents whose kids are well-behaved and conservative parents whose kids run amok (and vice versa). It's about being willing to set limits and stick to them.

Now I suppose within a particular school, a teacher will find more or less support for his/her particular style of running a classroom and that the school culture will have a lot to do with that -- but it shouldn't be a given that a progressive school will have lax discipline. But as I said, I don't have direct experience! So I defer to those of you who do.

[Anonymous]

Here's a scenario: A kid gets sent to the principal's office 2-3 times a week for poor behavior. All s/he gets is a talking-to by the principal, and a note/call to the parents. What SHOULD the school's next step be if this persists. What WOULD the school's next step be if it were traditional? If it were progressive?

[Anonymous]

"Poor" behavior means different things at different schools.

[Anonymous]

2-3 times/week is a lot -- of course if it's only been 2 weeks perhaps there is something situation-specific going on and if that's the case the administration would ask the parents if there is anything going on at home that could spike the bad or uncooperative behavior. If it has been going on for a while (more than 2 weeks), then I would think the office would schedule an in-person meeting with the parents to talk about the possible root causes of the behavior and then to draw up a plan to try to deal with it. Appropriate actions to take would depend on so much: has the child had behavioral problems in the past? is there something/someone else provoking the child? has the child been medically checked out to make sure that nothing physical is contributing to this? is the child undergoing stress related to some big change at home or in school? Does the poor behavior involve others (e.g., bullying other kids; not being respectful of the teachers) or is it related only to his or her own behavior (i.e., is it that they aren't listening or following instructions; are they generally being disruptive in class as in being the class clown).

Bottom line is whether traditional or progressive, no school should have a cookie cutter approach to a child with "poor behavior." All schools need to meet directly with the parents, pinpoint the trigger points for the behavior, and then make a plan for improving things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Poor" behavior means different things at different schools.

For the purpose of the scenario, assume it's use of foul language, striking another student, being disruptive to the class, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Poor" behavior means different things at different schools.

For the purpose of the scenario, assume it's use of foul language, striking another student, being disruptive to the class, etc.

10:02 poster - By the way, the scenario is indeed something that is happening in our "progressive" school and has been happening since the beginning of the school year.