What makes a classroom education elite?

[Anonymous]

The company you keep.

[Anonymous]

Prestige and pedigree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

It's the peers and the faculty. Real example: DC at an ivy, best friend from high school at a LAC between 20 and 30. Course was a humanities course with a different name, used the same text. Both courses had 12-18 students. LAC course discussed the text readings throughout the semester, covered almost all of the textbook, wrote 3 papers, had great discussions. DC's professor assigned readings such that they finished the entire textbook in the first 6 weeks, spent the rest of the time reading and analyzing primary sources comparing and contrasting the points in the text and reasoning through the details. The depth of discussion was deeper. Papers required were over double the length required at the LAC, the reading per week expected was triple that of the LAC.
For stem: compare and contrast syllabi, p-sets and exams from multivariable calc or organic chem at a regular college vs an elite: it is night and day as far as the pace, depth, breadth and complexity covered. Knowing a professor who has taught at both is helpful. We have an ivy professor in the family. Their insight into students and expectations across different schools (their phd, post docs, guest lecturer and now tenure spot were different places).

A textbook? Or a book book?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

If a student would like to graduate absolutely current in the field of economics, then a school such as Princeton (#5 in this analysis of faculty scholarship) may make a better choice than Penn State (#40):

Economics rankings: US Economics Departments | IDEAS/RePEc https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.usecondept.html

Similarly, one of the top 8 or so LACs in this analysis may make a better choice than an LAC outside the, say, top 20:

Economics rankings: US Economics Departments at Liberal Arts Colleges | IDEAS/RePEc https://share.google/BPwnMpuAOtZdzYhq5

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oftentimes, you can access course syllabus’s online. Try to find a similar course, like intro micro or macro, and compare course pace, material studied, and course requirements. Generally, the better schools will cover more material overall and more primary material, and require more papers. This reflects the caliber of the students, who can move through the material quickly, unpack material themselves, and make sophisticated written arguments about the material.

Small classes encourage more participation and direct professor involvement. Professors (not graduate students) teach and provide context and sophisticated insights into the material, and sometimes invite esteemed individuals to discuss class-relevant material.

Overall - both faculty and students - are working at a higher level and faster pace because they’re smart, motivated, curious, and want to make a difference in the world.

People at the best schools are not interested in just making a living/money in an ordinary career/job; they want to work on bigger issues on a bigger stage to make a difference in the world. So, another part of the difference is the overall motivation and attitude of everyone on campus, which will impact your student because students tend to look to faculty and peers, among others, for role models.

As someone who went to HYPSM, this last paragraph resonated with me. My classmates were such brilliant, passionate, interesting, motivated, funny, talented, and unique people. Each was impressive in their own way. It was exhilarating to be there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

It's the peers and the faculty. Real example: DC at an ivy, best friend from high school at a LAC between 20 and 30. Course was a humanities course with a different name, used the same text. Both courses had 12-18 students. LAC course discussed the text readings throughout the semester, covered almost all of the textbook, wrote 3 papers, had great discussions. DC's professor assigned readings such that they finished the entire textbook in the first 6 weeks, spent the rest of the time reading and analyzing primary sources comparing and contrasting the points in the text and reasoning through the details. The depth of discussion was deeper. Papers required were over double the length required at the LAC, the reading per week expected was triple that of the LAC.
For stem: compare and contrast syllabi, p-sets and exams from multivariable calc or organic chem at a regular college vs an elite: it is night and day as far as the pace, depth, breadth and complexity covered. Knowing a professor who has taught at both is helpful. We have an ivy professor in the family. Their insight into students and expectations across different schools (their phd, post docs, guest lecturer and now tenure spot were different places).

A textbook? Or a book book?

Same question here from a history/poli sci major at HYPSM. I don't recall any textbooks. A typical class would have up to 12 books.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

The professors at Princeton are more likely to show up in the New York Times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

It's the peers and the faculty. Real example: DC at an ivy, best friend from high school at a LAC between 20 and 30. Course was a humanities course with a different name, used the same text. Both courses had 12-18 students. LAC course discussed the text readings throughout the semester, covered almost all of the textbook, wrote 3 papers, had great discussions. DC's professor assigned readings such that they finished the entire textbook in the first 6 weeks, spent the rest of the time reading and analyzing primary sources comparing and contrasting the points in the text and reasoning through the details. The depth of discussion was deeper. Papers required were over double the length required at the LAC, the reading per week expected was triple that of the LAC.
For stem: compare and contrast syllabi, p-sets and exams from multivariable calc or organic chem at a regular college vs an elite: it is night and day as far as the pace, depth, breadth and complexity covered. Knowing a professor who has taught at both is helpful. We have an ivy professor in the family. Their insight into students and expectations across different schools (their phd, post docs, guest lecturer and now tenure spot were different places).

I graduated from an Ivy, my wife from a NESCAC SLAC. Unless you are comparing a non-selective LAC to the Ivy this didn’t happen (based on our actual real life experience).

Well PP used a lower-ranked LAC not a WASP school or Bowdoin, so yes.

That was my point. Peer to peer the scenario would not have happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

The difference might be the prof at Princeton wrote the textbook they are teaching from. The Penn state is using the textbook written by Princeton prof.

This was my experience—and when you engage with the prof, you get much more nuance and the backstory of what wasn’t included.

In addition, the access to the networks or lab research or studies that professor does. It’s not unusual for a professor to take on one or two undergrads in their labs. And then a rec like that for grad school would open other doors. This was my son’s experience.

[Anonymous]

Great professors, great students, small class size and lots of access.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Transplant to DC from Western Europe with kids in middle school. I am trying to learn more about college/university life in the US since it is so different from back home.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about elite schools and the various opportunities they offer outside the classroom, especially professionally. But what I am trying to understand, since I’ll be paying for an education, is what is it about the classroom experience at these schools that provides kids with an elite education? If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

It's the peers and the faculty. Real example: DC at an ivy, best friend from high school at a LAC between 20 and 30. Course was a humanities course with a different name, used the same text. Both courses had 12-18 students. LAC course discussed the text readings throughout the semester, covered almost all of the textbook, wrote 3 papers, had great discussions. DC's professor assigned readings such that they finished the entire textbook in the first 6 weeks, spent the rest of the time reading and analyzing primary sources comparing and contrasting the points in the text and reasoning through the details. The depth of discussion was deeper. Papers required were over double the length required at the LAC, the reading per week expected was triple that of the LAC.
For stem: compare and contrast syllabi, p-sets and exams from multivariable calc or organic chem at a regular college vs an elite: it is night and day as far as the pace, depth, breadth and complexity covered. Knowing a professor who has taught at both is helpful. We have an ivy professor in the family. Their insight into students and expectations across different schools (their phd, post docs, guest lecturer and now tenure spot were different places).

A textbook? Or a book book?

Same question here from a history/poli sci major at HYPSM. I don't recall any textbooks. A typical class would have up to 12 books.

+1

That was my experience as well. And, of course, you had the required reading of 12 books plus the additional recommended reading of 20+ books

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oftentimes, you can access course syllabus’s online. Try to find a similar course, like intro micro or macro, and compare course pace, material studied, and course requirements. Generally, the better schools will cover more material overall and more primary material, and require more papers. This reflects the caliber of the students, who can move through the material quickly, unpack material themselves, and make sophisticated written arguments about the material.

Small classes encourage more participation and direct professor involvement. Professors (not graduate students) teach and provide context and sophisticated insights into the material, and sometimes invite esteemed individuals to discuss class-relevant material.

Overall - both faculty and students - are working at a higher level and faster pace because they’re smart, motivated, curious, and want to make a difference in the world.

People at the best schools are not interested in just making a living/money in an ordinary career/job; they want to work on bigger issues on a bigger stage to make a difference in the world. So, another part of the difference is the overall motivation and attitude of everyone on campus, which will impact your student because students tend to look to faculty and peers, among others, for role models.

One hundred percent this. We see it with our two ivy+ kids compared to the one who went to the flagship ranked around 55. Professors who have taught in both envoronments will tell you the same. The culture at the top schools is completely different. You can imagine going to the top of whatever field when you are surrounded by faculty, speakers, and students who have done similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: If economics, for example, is taught from the same textbook at Princeton vs Penn State, what makes the Princeton classroom experience elite?

The difference might be the prof at Princeton wrote the textbook they are teaching from. The Penn state is using the textbook written by Princeton prof.

This was my experience—and when you engage with the prof, you get much more nuance and the backstory of what wasn’t included.

In addition, the access to the networks or lab research or studies that professor does. It’s not unusual for a professor to take on one or two undergrads in their labs. And then a rec like that for grad school would open other doors. This was my son’s experience.

Yes. On every T10 tour we did(8 of the top 10), they emphasized any student in any field who wants to research with faculty can, and many of those spots are funded. That has proven to be true at the ivy he picked. It may take a couple of tries but faculty like undergrads and help them get research spots even if they do not have an opening, typically sophomore year. At a top school they are known in their field, know others at peer institutions, and often partner with industry and can connect students there.

[Anonymous]

Classroom is the least important part of US college, especially in the modern Internet era.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oftentimes, you can access course syllabus’s online. Try to find a similar course, like intro micro or macro, and compare course pace, material studied, and course requirements. Generally, the better schools will cover more material overall and more primary material, and require more papers. This reflects the caliber of the students, who can move through the material quickly, unpack material themselves, and make sophisticated written arguments about the material.

Small classes encourage more participation and direct professor involvement. Professors (not graduate students) teach and provide context and sophisticated insights into the material, and sometimes invite esteemed individuals to discuss class-relevant material.

Overall - both faculty and students - are working at a higher level and faster pace because they’re smart, motivated, curious, and want to make a difference in the world.

People at the best schools are not interested in just making a living/money in an ordinary career/job; they want to work on bigger issues on a bigger stage to make a difference in the world. So, another part of the difference is the overall motivation and attitude of everyone on campus, which will impact your student because students tend to look to faculty and peers, among others, for role models.

One hundred percent this. We see it with our two ivy+ kids compared to the one who went to the flagship ranked around 55. Professors who have taught in both envoronments will tell you the same. The culture at the top schools is completely different. You can imagine going to the top of whatever field when you are surrounded by faculty, speakers, and students who have done similar.

Even "mediocre" colleges are full of faculty who have achieved similar or more academically than your kid will, most likely.

Large schools have an upper academic cohort that skips into upper level curses early.

The marketing and kinesiology majors aren't competing with math and physics majors for research opportunities.