Requirements for medical school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

I teach in a med school.

If you can't handle "all the stupid requirements" to get in, and need someone to "make it easier," then medical school is definitely not for you. The requirements are there for a reason.

The shortage of doctors is complicated, and making it easier to get into med school won't fix that. You can't just add seats in the med schools. The problem isn't a shortage of good applicants. It's a shortage of rotation sites and residency spots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

AMA lobbies to restrict the number of residencies and fellowships to protect salaries.

Spouse is a physician.

Well, if you got this information from your spouse, they are a physician who doesn't know what the heck they are talking about (and, I'm guessing, they are ancient). No one is trying to "protect salaries." The reasons for the number of spots in residencies and fellowships are complex, and not about "protecting salaries." At all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We should follow the European model, with a 3-year premedicine track. It’s technical training, that’s all it is.

Agree. And no gap year.
The kids with the highest grades/MCAT and who are personable then move on to med school.

"who are personable" - how do you figure that out?

Med schools do interviews. And in my experience, the admissions committees does a pretty good job with them and makes good selections.

[Anonymous]

I can’t decide if I should discourage or encourage medical school. I want to support their (hard earned) accomplishments but don’t want to lead them astray.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

I teach in a med school.

If you can't handle "all the stupid requirements" to get in, and need someone to "make it easier," then medical school is definitely not for you. The requirements are there for a reason.

The shortage of doctors is complicated, and making it easier to get into med school won't fix that. You can't just add seats in the med schools. The problem isn't a shortage of good applicants. It's a shortage of rotation sites and residency spots.

100%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can’t decide if I should discourage or encourage medical school. I want to support their (hard earned) accomplishments but don’t want to lead them astray.

Based on current grade-inflation state and what it takes:
If they have almost all As, occasional B ok but definitely no C, in gen chem, orgo, physics, calc and they also had 1450+ in a single sitting on the SAT with no extra time(no time exceptions for MCAT), they are not complaining about the time away from socializing and working all summer, then by all means encourage away! It is a great career. If any of the above are not true, especially if all of the above are not true, discourage strongly. They will not make it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

AMA lobbies to restrict the number of residencies and fellowships to protect salaries.

Spouse is a physician.

Well, if you got this information from your spouse, they are a physician who doesn't know what the heck they are talking about (and, I'm guessing, they are ancient). No one is trying to "protect salaries." The reasons for the number of spots in residencies and fellowships are complex, and not about "protecting salaries." At all.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can’t decide if I should discourage or encourage medical school. I want to support their (hard earned) accomplishments but don’t want to lead them astray.

It's a rough job nowadays. Insurance companies (led by Medicare) dictate way too much with regard to patient care and the amount of time doctors have with patients is shrinking as we speak. Private equity is making it worse. Much worse. If you want to go to med school because you see it as a respectable (or impressive?) job with high pay, you might want to skip it -- it probably won't be worth it for you and there are easier ways to make money. If you are truly fascinated by the human body and how it works and can't see yourself happy doing anything but treating patients, it might be a good fit even with all the hassle.

[Anonymous]

Agreed, and it's also expensive as he!!, now with loans capped. The gap year often involves low-paid work or volunteer work. Shadowing is unpaid. Research is often unpaid. It all arguably makes for a classist system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We should follow the European model, with a 3-year premedicine track. It’s technical training, that’s all it is.

Agree. And no gap year.
The kids with the highest grades/MCAT and who are personable then move on to med school.

"who are personable" - how do you figure that out?

Interview. Letters of recommendation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, in much of Europe, Medicine is direct admission from HS. None of this "pre med" delay and silliness in such countries.

Thank the AMA for the current state of things.

At this point the AMA is basically a pro-immigration lobby actively working to prevent Americans from entering a field that’s in high demand.

+1.

Medicine is a hard track in any country but for my cousins abroad it was 6 years and they were admitted from high school. And they practice in the US now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

Gap years are chosen, not needed. I am a physician, I co-own a premed-advising consultant group, and have three premeds in among my kids or neice/nephews currently, one at UVA, one at ivy, one at another ivy. None are taking gap years. The ivies have data showing 35-40% of med school applicants each year have zero gap years. A specific large southern public in the overall top 65 has 85% taking a gap. Their advising from what I see with applicants is terrible. The culture on campus is gaps are needed. They often do not use their first two summers for premed requirements, huge mistake.
Uva to my knowledge does not release the percent that gap, but they remain an excellent premed program which advises well and prepares well for the MCAT.
Of the 65% who chose a gap year at the ivies, most are a choice in order to spread out the coursework slightly, typically move biochem to senior year and physics to junior, to help with maximizing grades. Others are 3.9+ kids who easily have the grades but get accepted to prestigious 1-year fellowship programs such as paid-for MPH, NIH fellow, Fulbright, others. The ivy my kid attends is very clear that gap years are not necessary, as there are plenty of resources for clinical experience, research, volunteering, right on campus. Premed advising meets with students and advises planned gaps when the grades are not ideal after the first 1-2 years. No one is gatekept from applying though some are strongly encouraged to gap.

Look on the AMCAS website, read on premed advising sites at the top schools with med schools on or near campus. The non-academic requirements can easily be completed as an extra EC during the semester(5-8 hrs a week is plenty) as well as the first three summers (over 400 hours each summer available to fill with research, clinical experience, and more). As long as the courses are rigorous, MCAT studying should not take more than 6-8 weeks of part time study on the weekends and on evenings during the semester or during the summer, many can get 515+ with much less. A student suited for medicine will be able to get at least a 508+ with that diligent schedule. Those who do not want to put in evening or weekend work to study for the most important test they will take do not belong in medicine.

What non-MD parents do not understand is that the non-academic requirements were suggestions in the late 90s when my cohort applied.
There were multiple years in a row that were harder to get in (33-35% of all US med applicants got in to at least one school vs 38-41% currently). AMCAS added "requirements" because it was clear back then that top schools were strongly pushing science research, volunteering in clinical settings and more for their premeds, while students applying from lesser schools were just doing the basics listed on AMCAS. Furthermore, these schools strongly pushed the "recommended" classes (biochem, cell bio, psych, stats in addition to 2 sem calc): if you wanted a glowing letter in the 90s you had better have taken all the recommended ones, and these schools told their students that upfront. The result back then: Med admissions skewed heavily toward these in-the-know undergrad programs (ivies, Duke, WashU,+ 20-30 other usual suspects) because these programs had applicants with resumes that are like all applicants have to have today. The fair solution was to up the official requirements so anyone from any undergrad would be on an even playing field.
My peers and I, from the same ivy as my kid attends today, did the same things they recommend now. At my top med school about 3/4 were from T30 unis/top 10 SLACs which does not happen anymore.
I served on med school admissions years ago and have a premed advising consultancy now, with other docs from top schools. It is more equitable now, and based on the raw math is slightly easier to gain acceptance to a US medical school now versus the mid to late 90s.

Thank you for this....my child is pre-med at UVA now and while I don't have the statistics handy, they did share them with us and success rate after a gap year had a notable increase. Trying to wrap our head around it all because there are ample opportunities at UVA for research, clinical hours, volunteering to do in undergrad....not understanding why the gap year is so needed/recommended!

[Anonymous]

college wasn’t physically located close enough to a hospital

If an undergraduate is interested in premed, I would only consider large universities with an affiliated teaching hospital.

Pre-Med opportunities and offering the easiest way to be tracked, be on the most direct path to admission. And other programs are around you - PT, OC, Pharmacy, Nursing, Dentistry, all kinds of Allied Health fields if the student pivots to a different major.

[Anonymous]

Kid graduated from Ivy in May. Now a first year medical student.

Rare for the graduates in her major to go straight through- most taking gap years.

Even when you are in a city, it is not always easy to get research or clinical hours, if you don’t have connections.

At least that was her experience. She is very happy in school. Studying all of the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

These "smart" kids can always bypass the US requirements and get their degrees at a caribbean med school.

We also have a lot of Indian educated doctors practicing in the country now. I assume they may also go to India to pursue a medical degree.