Math track at TJ and college admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What matters is that your child took hard classes that were available at their school, that is going to be different based on the school and the school district. FCPS is unusual in that it allows kids to start HS math in 7th grade, now testing 6th grade. Most places in the country see Algebra 1 in 8th grade as the accelerated track, very few places in the US allow for a regular pathway to Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Colleges are developing and posting baseline standards to take into consideration the norm across the country. The norm across the country is to complete Calculus as a senior, BC being the most rigorous Calc class. As much as people on this board and in this area complain about the schools, kids at FCPS have access to many more classes and programs then their counterparts across the country. Colleges know that and are taking that into consideration when reviewing an applicant from TJ or McLean or Langley or South Lakes or Lewis. They know what is on offer and it is above the baseline that exists for most schools in the country.

That said, at schools where there are other options, like pretty much every HS in FCPS, a strong math student is expected to have taken Calc BC but the strongest math students, the ones who took Algebra before 8th grade, are expected to have multi-variate and linear algebra when applying to top STEM programs because they are available at the school.

A student applying to a top school who is interested in the humanities is likely fine with Calc AB and or AP Stats. A student who took Algebra 1 in 7th grade and is interested in the humanities should have both, they don't need multi-variate calculus because they are not interested in engineering or other STEM programs. They need more APs in English, Social Studies, History and the other humanities.

All of the kids applying to top schools need AP History, English, Social Studies, and Science classes on top of the math classes. A STEM kid doesn't need every AP History/English/Social Studies class but they do need at least one in each category and then AP Science and Math classes across the board.

There’s not a lot of evidence for it. Multivariable and Linear Algebra at TJ and other magnet schools are high school elective classes, won’t even get the same credit as community college courses.

Students that take Multivariable and linear algebra usually have higher GPA, work harder, have better extracurriculars, which make them stronger applicants. It’s not the light version of these classes that get them in.

There are numerous posts every year of students with 15+ AP and DE classes shut out of top 20. If these classes were that important they get in, but that’s not happening.

They are also competing against students with similar profiles for a small number of spots at any given college. The pool of applicants looks reasonably similar, including taking multi-variate calculus and linear algebra, either at their school or a community college or at a college in the area. There are kids who don't have those classes that are accepted but they are most likely coming from an area with fewer options for kids and they are not expected to have those classes.

Some of those kids applying for Engineering programs, which are even smaller in number and more competitive, won't be accepted at the school while a kid applying for a humanities program at the same selective school will be accepted with Calc BC.

I have yet to see any data that shows that a kid taking Calc BC is more likely to be accepted into the engineering program at MIT then the kid from the same school with multi-variate calculus.

More importantly, kids strong in math who like math should be taking the higher level classes because it challenges and stretches them and not just to get into MIT or Cal Tech. DS is taking geometry in 8th grade because he is strong in math and enjoys it. I expect that he will take more advanced math classes because he loves math. He might not get into MIT but he will go to a strong college because he will have good grades and will have taken many challenging classes in HS. It would be great if he attends MIT but it is a long shot, even if he has A's in all of his classes and takes a full load of APs/IBs/DE. It comes down to a small number of spots and a lot of people wanting those spots.

That’s not the point being made.

The clam is that Multivariable and other DE courses alone don’t significantly improve the admissions prospects at top colleges. The supporting evidence is what colleges themselves say on their webpages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What matters is that your child took hard classes that were available at their school, that is going to be different based on the school and the school district. FCPS is unusual in that it allows kids to start HS math in 7th grade, now testing 6th grade. Most places in the country see Algebra 1 in 8th grade as the accelerated track, very few places in the US allow for a regular pathway to Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Colleges are developing and posting baseline standards to take into consideration the norm across the country. The norm across the country is to complete Calculus as a senior, BC being the most rigorous Calc class. As much as people on this board and in this area complain about the schools, kids at FCPS have access to many more classes and programs then their counterparts across the country. Colleges know that and are taking that into consideration when reviewing an applicant from TJ or McLean or Langley or South Lakes or Lewis. They know what is on offer and it is above the baseline that exists for most schools in the country.

That said, at schools where there are other options, like pretty much every HS in FCPS, a strong math student is expected to have taken Calc BC but the strongest math students, the ones who took Algebra before 8th grade, are expected to have multi-variate and linear algebra when applying to top STEM programs because they are available at the school.

A student applying to a top school who is interested in the humanities is likely fine with Calc AB and or AP Stats. A student who took Algebra 1 in 7th grade and is interested in the humanities should have both, they don't need multi-variate calculus because they are not interested in engineering or other STEM programs. They need more APs in English, Social Studies, History and the other humanities.

All of the kids applying to top schools need AP History, English, Social Studies, and Science classes on top of the math classes. A STEM kid doesn't need every AP History/English/Social Studies class but they do need at least one in each category and then AP Science and Math classes across the board.

There’s not a lot of evidence for it. Multivariable and Linear Algebra at TJ and other magnet schools are high school elective classes, won’t even get the same credit as community college courses.

Students that take Multivariable and linear algebra usually have higher GPA, work harder, have better extracurriculars, which make them stronger applicants. It’s not the light version of these classes that get them in.

There are numerous posts every year of students with 15+ AP and DE classes shut out of top 20. If these classes were that important they get in, but that’s not happening.

They are also competing against students with similar profiles for a small number of spots at any given college. The pool of applicants looks reasonably similar, including taking multi-variate calculus and linear algebra, either at their school or a community college or at a college in the area. There are kids who don't have those classes that are accepted but they are most likely coming from an area with fewer options for kids and they are not expected to have those classes.

Some of those kids applying for Engineering programs, which are even smaller in number and more competitive, won't be accepted at the school while a kid applying for a humanities program at the same selective school will be accepted with Calc BC.

I have yet to see any data that shows that a kid taking Calc BC is more likely to be accepted into the engineering program at MIT then the kid from the same school with multi-variate calculus.

More importantly, kids strong in math who like math should be taking the higher level classes because it challenges and stretches them and not just to get into MIT or Cal Tech. DS is taking geometry in 8th grade because he is strong in math and enjoys it. I expect that he will take more advanced math classes because he loves math. He might not get into MIT but he will go to a strong college because he will have good grades and will have taken many challenging classes in HS. It would be great if he attends MIT but it is a long shot, even if he has A's in all of his classes and takes a full load of APs/IBs/DE. It comes down to a small number of spots and a lot of people wanting those spots.

That’s not the point being made.

The clam is that Multivariable and other DE courses alone don’t significantly improve the admissions prospects at top colleges. The supporting evidence is what colleges themselves say on their webpages.

What they say on their webpage doesn’t matter. You are being compared to the other applicants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What matters is that your child took hard classes that were available at their school, that is going to be different based on the school and the school district. FCPS is unusual in that it allows kids to start HS math in 7th grade, now testing 6th grade. Most places in the country see Algebra 1 in 8th grade as the accelerated track, very few places in the US allow for a regular pathway to Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Colleges are developing and posting baseline standards to take into consideration the norm across the country. The norm across the country is to complete Calculus as a senior, BC being the most rigorous Calc class. As much as people on this board and in this area complain about the schools, kids at FCPS have access to many more classes and programs then their counterparts across the country. Colleges know that and are taking that into consideration when reviewing an applicant from TJ or McLean or Langley or South Lakes or Lewis. They know what is on offer and it is above the baseline that exists for most schools in the country.

That said, at schools where there are other options, like pretty much every HS in FCPS, a strong math student is expected to have taken Calc BC but the strongest math students, the ones who took Algebra before 8th grade, are expected to have multi-variate and linear algebra when applying to top STEM programs because they are available at the school.

A student applying to a top school who is interested in the humanities is likely fine with Calc AB and or AP Stats. A student who took Algebra 1 in 7th grade and is interested in the humanities should have both, they don't need multi-variate calculus because they are not interested in engineering or other STEM programs. They need more APs in English, Social Studies, History and the other humanities.

All of the kids applying to top schools need AP History, English, Social Studies, and Science classes on top of the math classes. A STEM kid doesn't need every AP History/English/Social Studies class but they do need at least one in each category and then AP Science and Math classes across the board.

There’s not a lot of evidence for it. Multivariable and Linear Algebra at TJ and other magnet schools are high school elective classes, won’t even get the same credit as community college courses.

Students that take Multivariable and linear algebra usually have higher GPA, work harder, have better extracurriculars, which make them stronger applicants. It’s not the light version of these classes that get them in.

There are numerous posts every year of students with 15+ AP and DE classes shut out of top 20. If these classes were that important they get in, but that’s not happening.

They are also competing against students with similar profiles for a small number of spots at any given college. The pool of applicants looks reasonably similar, including taking multi-variate calculus and linear algebra, either at their school or a community college or at a college in the area. There are kids who don't have those classes that are accepted but they are most likely coming from an area with fewer options for kids and they are not expected to have those classes.

Some of those kids applying for Engineering programs, which are even smaller in number and more competitive, won't be accepted at the school while a kid applying for a humanities program at the same selective school will be accepted with Calc BC.

I have yet to see any data that shows that a kid taking Calc BC is more likely to be accepted into the engineering program at MIT then the kid from the same school with multi-variate calculus.

More importantly, kids strong in math who like math should be taking the higher level classes because it challenges and stretches them and not just to get into MIT or Cal Tech. DS is taking geometry in 8th grade because he is strong in math and enjoys it. I expect that he will take more advanced math classes because he loves math. He might not get into MIT but he will go to a strong college because he will have good grades and will have taken many challenging classes in HS. It would be great if he attends MIT but it is a long shot, even if he has A's in all of his classes and takes a full load of APs/IBs/DE. It comes down to a small number of spots and a lot of people wanting those spots.

That’s not the point being made.

The clam is that Multivariable and other DE courses alone don’t significantly improve the admissions prospects at top colleges. The supporting evidence is what colleges themselves say on their webpages.

What they say on their webpage doesn’t matter. You are being compared to the other applicants.

True, but the benchmark is BC calculus. If you can grokk BC calculus it says a lot about your ability to think abstractly and manipulate problems conceptually.

The post calculus stuff is icing on the cake but I would probably take a very solid calculus score over a mediocre calculus score + more advanced math.
I think you should probably be taking all the post calculus stuff in college again anyway because high school linear algebra and MV calculus isn't going to prepare you for the higher level stuff.

[Anonymous]

“The post calculus stuff is icing on the cake but I would probably take a very solid calculus score over a mediocre calculus score + more advanced math.”

That’s not the question. The question is whether a college would favor a kid with a solid calculus score over a kid from the same school (or a like school) with a solid calculus score plus more advanced math. I think you’re deluding yourself if you think a college would not favor the latter. It’s different than a 1580 vs. a 1600, where the college likely doesn’t distinguish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“The post calculus stuff is icing on the cake but I would probably take a very solid calculus score over a mediocre calculus score + more advanced math.”

That’s not the question. The question is whether a college would favor a kid with a solid calculus score over a kid from the same school (or a like school) with a solid calculus score plus more advanced math. I think you’re deluding yourself if you think a college would not favor the latter. It’s different than a 1580 vs. a 1600, where the college likely doesn’t distinguish.

Academic evaluation is based on gpa, class rigor, class rank and standardized tests. Usually it’s a bin from 1 to 5, as shown in students for fair admissions discovery. Once you’re in the top bin, there’s no additional benefit and other factors are considered: extracurricular, personal and athletic, or whatever is listed in the common data set. People don’t even bother to read about colleges and their admission criteria, but are suddenly experts because their kid is a junior.

Taking Multivariable is going to be a small factor in the overall academic ranking. It’s a high school elective or community college course of dubious rigor. Take it if that’s your thing but don’t assume it confers any benefit for admissions.

[Anonymous]

Most of kids who go on to take Math beyond Calc BC, land up not understanding the more advanced math courses and are in misery.

Unless ur kid is a math nerd and truly lives math - stop at BC

[Anonymous]

It’s the same as saying 15 APs are better than 12 AP exams, if the student comes from the same high school. At some point there are diminishing returns and taking AP Human Geography is just icing on the cake to up the gpa a little.

It doesn’t matter that much, other things are more important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The post calculus stuff is icing on the cake but I would probably take a very solid calculus score over a mediocre calculus score + more advanced math.”

That’s not the question. The question is whether a college would favor a kid with a solid calculus score over a kid from the same school (or a like school) with a solid calculus score plus more advanced math. I think you’re deluding yourself if you think a college would not favor the latter. It’s different than a 1580 vs. a 1600, where the college likely doesn’t distinguish.

Academic evaluation is based on gpa, class rigor, class rank and standardized tests. Usually it’s a bin from 1 to 5, as shown in students for fair admissions discovery. Once you’re in the top bin, there’s no additional benefit and other factors are considered: extracurricular, personal and athletic, or whatever is listed in the common data set. People don’t even bother to read about colleges and their admission criteria, but are suddenly experts because their kid is a junior.

Taking Multivariable is going to be a small factor in the overall academic ranking. It’s a high school elective or community college course of dubious rigor. Take it if that’s your thing but don’t assume it confers any benefit for admissions.

How can you expect to be in the top bin if you aren't taking the most rigorous courses available at your school?

[Anonymous]

Taking Linear Algebra means you can now count MIT as your safety school. Linear Algebra student always beats Calc BC student.

Parents want to keep this secret to minimize competition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The post calculus stuff is icing on the cake but I would probably take a very solid calculus score over a mediocre calculus score + more advanced math.”

That’s not the question. The question is whether a college would favor a kid with a solid calculus score over a kid from the same school (or a like school) with a solid calculus score plus more advanced math. I think you’re deluding yourself if you think a college would not favor the latter. It’s different than a 1580 vs. a 1600, where the college likely doesn’t distinguish.

Academic evaluation is based on gpa, class rigor, class rank and standardized tests. Usually it’s a bin from 1 to 5, as shown in students for fair admissions discovery. Once you’re in the top bin, there’s no additional benefit and other factors are considered: extracurricular, personal and athletic, or whatever is listed in the common data set. People don’t even bother to read about colleges and their admission criteria, but are suddenly experts because their kid is a junior.

Taking Multivariable is going to be a small factor in the overall academic ranking. It’s a high school elective or community college course of dubious rigor. Take it if that’s your thing but don’t assume it confers any benefit for admissions.

How can you expect to be in the top bin if you aren't taking the most rigorous courses available at your school?

By most rigorous courses at your school you mean some math electives that you have to take because of the placement in middle school.

People want so much to believe they were good parents and set their kids up for success. If anybody needs more evidence, this is what Harvard recommends on their admissions webpage:



Applicants to Harvard should excel in a challenging high school math sequence corresponding to their educational interests and aspirations. We recommend that applicants take four years of math courses in high school. Ideally, these math courses will focus on conceptual understanding, promote higher-order thinking, and encourage students to use mathematical reasoning to critically examine the world. Examples include rigorous and relevant courses in computer science, statistics and its subfields, mathematical modeling, calculus, and other advanced math subjects.
Students’ math records are viewed holistically, and no specific course is required. Specifically, calculus is not a requirement for admission to Harvard. We understand that applicants do not have the same opportunities and course offerings in their high schools. Moreover, many programs of study at Harvard do not require knowledge of calculus. We encourage applicants to take the courses that are available to them and aligned with their interests and goals.
Students intending to study engineering, computer science, physics, mathematics, statistics or other fields where calculus is needed may benefit from taking calculus in high school. However, students at Harvard can still pursue such fields by starting with one of our introductory calculus classes that has no high school calculus prerequisite. On balance, we encourage all students to master foundational mathematical material instead of rushing through any of the more advanced courses.



I bet some doofus will chip in that what colleges doesn’t matter, students are compared within their school etc. and still be convinced this support the claim that students need to take Multivariable if offered at their school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Taking Linear Algebra means you can now count MIT as your safety school. Linear Algebra student always beats Calc BC student.

Parents want to keep this secret to minimize competition.

lol. Also let’s not forget that Quantum Physics always beats AP Physics C, and Organic Chemistry always beats AP Chemistry.