The U.S. Attorney's hidden role in undermining DC's gun laws

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does the USAO provide any data on why cases are dropped? If they want to be helpful partners, they should. If they can't or won't, they need to go.

Not sure if they do, but the obvious answer given the COA cases is that it's because they can't successfully prosecute in a lot of these cases. Federal prosecutors have an extremely high prosecution rate. They're not going to sacrifice it (and thereby their careers).

Sorry, I meant to say *conviction* rate. As we know, their prosecution rate in DC is garbage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the USAO keeps getting batted back on the newly expansive and radical reading of the 4th Amendment (informed by the 2nd Amendment) by DC Court of Appeals.

This has put a strong chilling effect on bringing gun possession cases.

See Champion vs. US (2024):
https://www.dccourts.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/Champion%20v%20US%2018-CF-1128.pdf

See TW vs. US (2023):
https://casetext.com/case/tw-v-united-states-3

See Hawkins vs. US (2022):
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/60754f3d4653d0298edf2dc2

The DC Court of Appeals have essentially chilled all gun possession cases. These cases have set precedent.

Can you give a layperson's explanation of what this means?

It basically means that cops don't have "probable cause" to search for a gun in lots of cases where the layperson would assume they have probable cause.

In the Champion case, the DC cops noticed a visibly nervous passenger in a car. They asked the passenger to get out of the car, he acquiesced. But he took off and left his jacket inside the car before getting out. The cops thought this was suspicious and searched the jacket in the car, finding an unregistered handgun in the jacket. The DC Court of Appeals stated this search violated the 4th Amendment. Not only did the DC Court of Appeals throw out the conviction, but stated that the hiding of contraband from police is not grounds for the police to have reasonable suspicion to search an individual or his property (car, home, etc). It's a pretty radical reading of the 4th Amendment.

In short, cops cannot act on their long-honed instincts and secure a conviction. The bar for attaining a conviction - and having it withstand appeal - is now extremely high in DC for illegal gun cases.

This ruling only applies in jurisdictions covered by the DC Court of Appeals - that is, DC. So that's why you prosecutors in MD and VA being able to charge similar gun possession crimes under their state laws, while the USAO is holding back on charging.

The incentives to charge for gun crimes are being throttled by the DC Court of Appeals.

Did the USAO write this post? I'm sure that there are plenty of gun crimes that can be charged that don't involve an illegal search of a car. This is just more BS finger pointing. Do your job.

Nope, just a concerned DC taxpayer who has been watching this sh#t roll downhill. The gun possession problem stems directly from the DC Court of Appeals - namely Judges Deahl and Easterly. Their precedent in TW vs. US is now binding all the other judges on the Court of Appeals and in the DC Superior Court when it comes to gun cases with 4th Amendment implications. As I understand it, this has now created an environment where suspects and their public defenders are automatically bringing up 4th Amendment arguments (even when one does not exist) in order to get a better plea deals out of the USAO from the outset since the USAO keeps getting swatted back by the Court of Appeals.

If the USAO has a gun seizure situation, the MPD basically has to come with ironclad probable cause documented via body cam + narrated by the officer before approaching the suspect in order to get a conviction that will withstand appeal. It's a crazy high hurdle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does the USAO provide any data on why cases are dropped? If they want to be helpful partners, they should. If they can't or won't, they need to go.

Not sure if they do, but the obvious answer given the COA cases is that it's because they can't successfully prosecute in a lot of these cases. Federal prosecutors have an extremely high prosecution rate. They're not going to sacrifice it (and thereby their careers).

Sorry, I meant to say *conviction* rate. As we know, their prosecution rate in DC is garbage.

*Declination rate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the USAO keeps getting batted back on the newly expansive and radical reading of the 4th Amendment (informed by the 2nd Amendment) by DC Court of Appeals.

This has put a strong chilling effect on bringing gun possession cases.

See Champion vs. US (2024):
https://www.dccourts.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/Champion%20v%20US%2018-CF-1128.pdf

See TW vs. US (2023):
https://casetext.com/case/tw-v-united-states-3

See Hawkins vs. US (2022):
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/60754f3d4653d0298edf2dc2

The DC Court of Appeals have essentially chilled all gun possession cases. These cases have set precedent.

Can you give a layperson's explanation of what this means?

It basically means that cops don't have "probable cause" to search for a gun in lots of cases where the layperson would assume they have probable cause.

In the Champion case, the DC cops noticed a visibly nervous passenger in a car. They asked the passenger to get out of the car, he acquiesced. But he took off and left his jacket inside the car before getting out. The cops thought this was suspicious and searched the jacket in the car, finding an unregistered handgun in the jacket. The DC Court of Appeals stated this search violated the 4th Amendment. Not only did the DC Court of Appeals throw out the conviction, but stated that the hiding of contraband from police is not grounds for the police to have reasonable suspicion to search an individual or his property (car, home, etc). It's a pretty radical reading of the 4th Amendment.

In short, cops cannot act on their long-honed instincts and secure a conviction. The bar for attaining a conviction - and having it withstand appeal - is now extremely high in DC for illegal gun cases.

This ruling only applies in jurisdictions covered by the DC Court of Appeals - that is, DC. So that's why you prosecutors in MD and VA being able to charge similar gun possession crimes under their state laws, while the USAO is holding back on charging.

The incentives to charge for gun crimes are being throttled by the DC Court of Appeals.

This is pretty spot on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the USAO keeps getting batted back on the newly expansive and radical reading of the 4th Amendment (informed by the 2nd Amendment) by DC Court of Appeals.

This has put a strong chilling effect on bringing gun possession cases.

See Champion vs. US (2024):
https://www.dccourts.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/Champion%20v%20US%2018-CF-1128.pdf

See TW vs. US (2023):
https://casetext.com/case/tw-v-united-states-3

See Hawkins vs. US (2022):
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/60754f3d4653d0298edf2dc2

The DC Court of Appeals have essentially chilled all gun possession cases. These cases have set precedent.

Can you give a layperson's explanation of what this means?

It basically means that cops don't have "probable cause" to search for a gun in lots of cases where the layperson would assume they have probable cause.

In the Champion case, the DC cops noticed a visibly nervous passenger in a car. They asked the passenger to get out of the car, he acquiesced. But he took off and left his jacket inside the car before getting out. The cops thought this was suspicious and searched the jacket in the car, finding an unregistered handgun in the jacket. The DC Court of Appeals stated this search violated the 4th Amendment. Not only did the DC Court of Appeals throw out the conviction, but stated that the hiding of contraband from police is not grounds for the police to have reasonable suspicion to search an individual or his property (car, home, etc). It's a pretty radical reading of the 4th Amendment.

In short, cops cannot act on their long-honed instincts and secure a conviction. The bar for attaining a conviction - and having it withstand appeal - is now extremely high in DC for illegal gun cases.

This ruling only applies in jurisdictions covered by the DC Court of Appeals - that is, DC. So that's why you prosecutors in MD and VA being able to charge similar gun possession crimes under their state laws, while the USAO is holding back on charging.

The incentives to charge for gun crimes are being throttled by the DC Court of Appeals.

So what can be done about this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the USAO keeps getting batted back on the newly expansive and radical reading of the 4th Amendment (informed by the 2nd Amendment) by DC Court of Appeals.

This has put a strong chilling effect on bringing gun possession cases.

See Champion vs. US (2024):
https://www.dccourts.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/Champion%20v%20US%2018-CF-1128.pdf

See TW vs. US (2023):
https://casetext.com/case/tw-v-united-states-3

See Hawkins vs. US (2022):
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/60754f3d4653d0298edf2dc2

The DC Court of Appeals have essentially chilled all gun possession cases. These cases have set precedent.

Can you give a layperson's explanation of what this means?

It basically means that cops don't have "probable cause" to search for a gun in lots of cases where the layperson would assume they have probable cause.

In the Champion case, the DC cops noticed a visibly nervous passenger in a car. They asked the passenger to get out of the car, he acquiesced. But he took off and left his jacket inside the car before getting out. The cops thought this was suspicious and searched the jacket in the car, finding an unregistered handgun in the jacket. The DC Court of Appeals stated this search violated the 4th Amendment. Not only did the DC Court of Appeals throw out the conviction, but stated that the hiding of contraband from police is not grounds for the police to have reasonable suspicion to search an individual or his property (car, home, etc). It's a pretty radical reading of the 4th Amendment.

In short, cops cannot act on their long-honed instincts and secure a conviction. The bar for attaining a conviction - and having it withstand appeal - is now extremely high in DC for illegal gun cases.

This ruling only applies in jurisdictions covered by the DC Court of Appeals - that is, DC. So that's why you prosecutors in MD and VA being able to charge similar gun possession crimes under their state laws, while the USAO is holding back on charging.

The incentives to charge for gun crimes are being throttled by the DC Court of Appeals.

Is there anything that can be done to change the unfortunate precedent set by the DC Court of Appeals?

DC Council is unlikely to try a legislative run around this.

There are also idealogues who are career prosecutors.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/04/politics/black-prosecutors-dc-gun-cases/index.html

The no paper rate began to tick up at the end of Obama and increased since, over Trump and Biden. Graves is an issue but so are many of the career prosecutors, the constant. The recent "surged" DOJ resources have barely moved the needle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the USAO keeps getting batted back on the newly expansive and radical reading of the 4th Amendment (informed by the 2nd Amendment) by DC Court of Appeals.

This has put a strong chilling effect on bringing gun possession cases.

See Champion vs. US (2024):
https://www.dccourts.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/Champion%20v%20US%2018-CF-1128.pdf

See TW vs. US (2023):
https://casetext.com/case/tw-v-united-states-3

See Hawkins vs. US (2022):
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/60754f3d4653d0298edf2dc2

The DC Court of Appeals have essentially chilled all gun possession cases. These cases have set precedent.

Can you give a layperson's explanation of what this means?

It basically means that cops don't have "probable cause" to search for a gun in lots of cases where the layperson would assume they have probable cause.

In the Champion case, the DC cops noticed a visibly nervous passenger in a car. They asked the passenger to get out of the car, he acquiesced. But he took off and left his jacket inside the car before getting out. The cops thought this was suspicious and searched the jacket in the car, finding an unregistered handgun in the jacket. The DC Court of Appeals stated this search violated the 4th Amendment. Not only did the DC Court of Appeals throw out the conviction, but stated that the hiding of contraband from police is not grounds for the police to have reasonable suspicion to search an individual or his property (car, home, etc). It's a pretty radical reading of the 4th Amendment.

In short, cops cannot act on their long-honed instincts and secure a conviction. The bar for attaining a conviction - and having it withstand appeal - is now extremely high in DC for illegal gun cases.

This ruling only applies in jurisdictions covered by the DC Court of Appeals - that is, DC. So that's why you prosecutors in MD and VA being able to charge similar gun possession crimes under their state laws, while the USAO is holding back on charging.

The incentives to charge for gun crimes are being throttled by the DC Court of Appeals.

So what can be done about this?

Dunno. These judges are in office for 15 year terms. There's current two vacant seats on the court. USAO could try to challenge the decisions, but would need to appeal to the Supreme Court.

But DC is definitely in a weird place where it has higher hurdles for conviction on gun charges than pretty much anywhere else in the country. We don't have state laws we could apply, but instead have to follow only the federal laws and then have federal judges make decisions that ultimately change how the District is run.

It's no wonder so many people come from MD and VA to commit crimes in DC - there's a higher threshold for getting convicted in DC when it comes to guns and a better chance of getting your conviction overturned.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the USAO keeps getting batted back on the newly expansive and radical reading of the 4th Amendment (informed by the 2nd Amendment) by DC Court of Appeals.

This has put a strong chilling effect on bringing gun possession cases.

See Champion vs. US (2024):
https://www.dccourts.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/Champion%20v%20US%2018-CF-1128.pdf

See TW vs. US (2023):
https://casetext.com/case/tw-v-united-states-3

See Hawkins vs. US (2022):
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/60754f3d4653d0298edf2dc2

The DC Court of Appeals have essentially chilled all gun possession cases. These cases have set precedent.

Can you give a layperson's explanation of what this means?

It basically means that cops don't have "probable cause" to search for a gun in lots of cases where the layperson would assume they have probable cause.

In the Champion case, the DC cops noticed a visibly nervous passenger in a car. They asked the passenger to get out of the car, he acquiesced. But he took off and left his jacket inside the car before getting out. The cops thought this was suspicious and searched the jacket in the car, finding an unregistered handgun in the jacket. The DC Court of Appeals stated this search violated the 4th Amendment. Not only did the DC Court of Appeals throw out the conviction, but stated that the hiding of contraband from police is not grounds for the police to have reasonable suspicion to search an individual or his property (car, home, etc). It's a pretty radical reading of the 4th Amendment.

In short, cops cannot act on their long-honed instincts and secure a conviction. The bar for attaining a conviction - and having it withstand appeal - is now extremely high in DC for illegal gun cases.

This ruling only applies in jurisdictions covered by the DC Court of Appeals - that is, DC. So that's why you prosecutors in MD and VA being able to charge similar gun possession crimes under their state laws, while the USAO is holding back on charging.

The incentives to charge for gun crimes are being throttled by the DC Court of Appeals.

Do appeals for both USAO and DC Office of Attorney General cases both go to DC Court of Appeals? Curious because it seems the prosecution rate for gun crime is higher for DC Office of Attorney General.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the USAO keeps getting batted back on the newly expansive and radical reading of the 4th Amendment (informed by the 2nd Amendment) by DC Court of Appeals.

This has put a strong chilling effect on bringing gun possession cases.

See Champion vs. US (2024):
https://www.dccourts.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/Champion%20v%20US%2018-CF-1128.pdf

See TW vs. US (2023):
https://casetext.com/case/tw-v-united-states-3

See Hawkins vs. US (2022):
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/60754f3d4653d0298edf2dc2

The DC Court of Appeals have essentially chilled all gun possession cases. These cases have set precedent.

Can you give a layperson's explanation of what this means?

It basically means that cops don't have "probable cause" to search for a gun in lots of cases where the layperson would assume they have probable cause.

In the Champion case, the DC cops noticed a visibly nervous passenger in a car. They asked the passenger to get out of the car, he acquiesced. But he took off and left his jacket inside the car before getting out. The cops thought this was suspicious and searched the jacket in the car, finding an unregistered handgun in the jacket. The DC Court of Appeals stated this search violated the 4th Amendment. Not only did the DC Court of Appeals throw out the conviction, but stated that the hiding of contraband from police is not grounds for the police to have reasonable suspicion to search an individual or his property (car, home, etc). It's a pretty radical reading of the 4th Amendment.

In short, cops cannot act on their long-honed instincts and secure a conviction. The bar for attaining a conviction - and having it withstand appeal - is now extremely high in DC for illegal gun cases.

This ruling only applies in jurisdictions covered by the DC Court of Appeals - that is, DC. So that's why you prosecutors in MD and VA being able to charge similar gun possession crimes under their state laws, while the USAO is holding back on charging.

The incentives to charge for gun crimes are being throttled by the DC Court of Appeals.

Do appeals for both USAO and DC Office of Attorney General cases both go to DC Court of Appeals? Curious because it seems the prosecution rate for gun crime is higher for DC Office of Attorney General.

DC Office of AG (crimes involving minors) and USAO (crimes involving adults) both argue before the Superior Court of the District of Columbia. Appeals then go to the District of Columbia Court of Appeals. If not satisfied, they then appeal to the Supreme Court.

DC Office of AG only prosecutes gun cases involving minors. And minors have less protection under the 4th Amendment than adults. The Supreme Court has extended search and seizure rights to minors, but probable cause standards are lower for minor and even non-existent in the case of a school official demanding to inspect a child's property. Minors do not have the same Constitutional protections as adults. So a conviction of a minor for a gun crime is more likely to be held up by the Court of Appeals.

DC Office of AG - like any prosecutor - is more likely to charge when they know they will win and the verdict will be upheld. And minors have less rights, so its easier to win.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because the USAO keeps getting batted back on the newly expansive and radical reading of the 4th Amendment (informed by the 2nd Amendment) by DC Court of Appeals.

This has put a strong chilling effect on bringing gun possession cases.

See Champion vs. US (2024):
https://www.dccourts.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/Champion%20v%20US%2018-CF-1128.pdf

See TW vs. US (2023):
https://casetext.com/case/tw-v-united-states-3

See Hawkins vs. US (2022):
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/60754f3d4653d0298edf2dc2

The DC Court of Appeals have essentially chilled all gun possession cases. These cases have set precedent.

Can you give a layperson's explanation of what this means?

It basically means that cops don't have "probable cause" to search for a gun in lots of cases where the layperson would assume they have probable cause.

In the Champion case, the DC cops noticed a visibly nervous passenger in a car. They asked the passenger to get out of the car, he acquiesced. But he took off and left his jacket inside the car before getting out. The cops thought this was suspicious and searched the jacket in the car, finding an unregistered handgun in the jacket. The DC Court of Appeals stated this search violated the 4th Amendment. Not only did the DC Court of Appeals throw out the conviction, but stated that the hiding of contraband from police is not grounds for the police to have reasonable suspicion to search an individual or his property (car, home, etc). It's a pretty radical reading of the 4th Amendment.

In short, cops cannot act on their long-honed instincts and secure a conviction. The bar for attaining a conviction - and having it withstand appeal - is now extremely high in DC for illegal gun cases.

This ruling only applies in jurisdictions covered by the DC Court of Appeals - that is, DC. So that's why you prosecutors in MD and VA being able to charge similar gun possession crimes under their state laws, while the USAO is holding back on charging.

The incentives to charge for gun crimes are being throttled by the DC Court of Appeals.

Did the USAO write this post? I'm sure that there are plenty of gun crimes that can be charged that don't involve an illegal search of a car. This is just more BS finger pointing. Do your job.

Nope, just a concerned DC taxpayer who has been watching this sh#t roll downhill. The gun possession problem stems directly from the DC Court of Appeals - namely Judges Deahl and Easterly. Their precedent in TW vs. US is now binding all the other judges on the Court of Appeals and in the DC Superior Court when it comes to gun cases with 4th Amendment implications. As I understand it, this has now created an environment where suspects and their public defenders are automatically bringing up 4th Amendment arguments (even when one does not exist) in order to get a better plea deals out of the USAO from the outset since the USAO keeps getting swatted back by the Court of Appeals.

If the USAO has a gun seizure situation, the MPD basically has to come with ironclad probable cause documented via body cam + narrated by the officer before approaching the suspect in order to get a conviction that will withstand appeal. It's a crazy high hurdle.

I don't disagree that COA is a factor, but Schwab/AG's office has a much higher gun prosecution rate, ALL other factors being equal - MPD, lab, COA, etc.

[Anonymous]

I wonder how many of the guns are coming out of VA...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder how many of the guns are coming out of VA...?

Most are which is why we should focus on gun control to keep them off the streets instead of divisive things like this topic that we have no control over.

[Anonymous]

Dictatorship.

Trump or any other Republican wins or they ie Republicans win House & Senate no one will have to worry about their guns again.

MAGA morons.

Like Dictators let the little people keep their firearms LOL idiots...