What can be done to level the playing field?

[Anonymous]

You can’t. Unfortunately life is a jungle, not a zoo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's true that integrated/socio-economically diverse schools bring up test scores for disadvantaged students in a way that more funding thrown at hypersegregated schools doesn't. But the gap doesn't disappear.

I am a strong believer in encouraging school systems to reduce pockets of segregation. They can incentivize going to school out of zone through specialty programs (transportation must be provided or else this is just a way to further advantage already advantaged people). "Minority to majority" transfer programs (giving preference via an otherwise blind lottery for students who would be a minority at the school they're applying to) can also help. And of course, encouraging people to consider their local schools if they are being overlooked due to "test scores" (which is usually code for "I don't think enough people like me go to this school").

To answer your original question, it seems from research that it is simply having that diversity of economic conditions in a school that makes the difference. We can imagine why, certainly . . . compare two schools that pay teachers the same, but one is hypersegregated and pulls almost entirely from a public housing court, whereas another has students in public housing all the way up to students with second homes. A teacher is just one person . . . how much can they accomplish in the hypersegregated classroom, versus how much in a classroom where students who haven't had any advantages are only a fraction and there are parent volunteers and PTA money for extras?

Of course, I want us to pay teachers more, fund schools better, etc. But I also believe that diverse schools are good for all of us, and I'm happy to send my kids to them. No child should be attending a Jim Crow school in 2022.

Is this the research you are referring to?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303150859_Housing_policy_is_school_policy_Economically_integrative_housing_promotes_academic_success_in_Montgomery_County_Maryland/link/57cec5d308ae057987abf9b8/download

It's an interesting study. Having access to a low-poverty school's resources and peer effect is important. However, this study looked at students whose families moved into subsidized housing in low-poverty areas and thus attended low-poverty schools. Living in a low-poverty area would likely help boost achievement as well. It is hard to know the relative contributions of 1) living and 2) going to school in low poverty areas. It would be interesting to look at achievement changes for students who are bussed to low-poverty schools but continue to live in high-poverty areas. That might help identify the relative effects.

[Anonymous]

Sorry. Better link for that study:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303150859_Housing_policy_is_school_policy_Economically_integrative_housing_promotes_academic_success_in_Montgomery_County_Maryland

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are public schools where there are significant achievement gaps between students from different socioeconomic backgrounds. Yet some schools thrive despite having great economic differences among the student body - these schools show no significant achievement differences in math, science, social science, and language arts. What are the schools that have no gap doing right? Do these schools provide after-school tutoring, supplemental weekend and summer enrichment? Do these schools provide parents with the resources to supplement their kids or are systemic issues permanent barriers in schools that cannot overcome the gaps (such as parents not having sufficient time because they work in the evenings and nights and needs to sleep during the day)?

Seton schools have strong academic performance across SES.

Maybe it’s the parent involvement, sense of community, uniforms, time tested curricula (not experimental or Uber progressive), high expectations and discipline.?.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's true that integrated/socio-economically diverse schools bring up test scores for disadvantaged students in a way that more funding thrown at hypersegregated schools doesn't. But the gap doesn't disappear.

I am a strong believer in encouraging school systems to reduce pockets of segregation. They can incentivize going to school out of zone through specialty programs (transportation must be provided or else this is just a way to further advantage already advantaged people). "Minority to majority" transfer programs (giving preference via an otherwise blind lottery for students who would be a minority at the school they're applying to) can also help. And of course, encouraging people to consider their local schools if they are being overlooked due to "test scores" (which is usually code for "I don't think enough people like me go to this school").

To answer your original question, it seems from research that it is simply having that diversity of economic conditions in a school that makes the difference. We can imagine why, certainly . . . compare two schools that pay teachers the same, but one is hypersegregated and pulls almost entirely from a public housing court, whereas another has students in public housing all the way up to students with second homes. A teacher is just one person . . . how much can they accomplish in the hypersegregated classroom, versus how much in a classroom where students who haven't had any advantages are only a fraction and there are parent volunteers and PTA money for extras?

Of course, I want us to pay teachers more, fund schools better, etc. But I also believe that diverse schools are good for all of us, and I'm happy to send my kids to them. No child should be attending a Jim Crow school in 2022.

Is this the research you are referring to?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303150859_Housing_policy_is_school_policy_Economically_integrative_housing_promotes_academic_success_in_Montgomery_County_Maryland/link/57cec5d308ae057987abf9b8/download

It's an interesting study. Having access to a low-poverty school's resources and peer effect is important. However, this study looked at students whose families moved into subsidized housing in low-poverty areas and thus attended low-poverty schools. Living in a low-poverty area would likely help boost achievement as well. It is hard to know the relative contributions of 1) living and 2) going to school in low poverty areas. It would be interesting to look at achievement changes for students who are bussed to low-poverty schools but continue to live in high-poverty areas. That might help identify the relative effects.

Yes to the bolded. I've tried to find studies like you reference but came up blank. The Montgomery County study is routinely cited to support school reassignment, even though it only deals with young children and involved a community that included lower-income families living in and attending school in a higher-income area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's true that integrated/socio-economically diverse schools bring up test scores for disadvantaged students in a way that more funding thrown at hypersegregated schools doesn't. But the gap doesn't disappear.

I am a strong believer in encouraging school systems to reduce pockets of segregation. They can incentivize going to school out of zone through specialty programs (transportation must be provided or else this is just a way to further advantage already advantaged people). "Minority to majority" transfer programs (giving preference via an otherwise blind lottery for students who would be a minority at the school they're applying to) can also help. And of course, encouraging people to consider their local schools if they are being overlooked due to "test scores" (which is usually code for "I don't think enough people like me go to this school").

To answer your original question, it seems from research that it is simply having that diversity of economic conditions in a school that makes the difference. We can imagine why, certainly . . . compare two schools that pay teachers the same, but one is hypersegregated and pulls almost entirely from a public housing court, whereas another has students in public housing all the way up to students with second homes. A teacher is just one person . . . how much can they accomplish in the hypersegregated classroom, versus how much in a classroom where students who haven't had any advantages are only a fraction and there are parent volunteers and PTA money for extras?

Of course, I want us to pay teachers more, fund schools better, etc. But I also believe that diverse schools are good for all of us, and I'm happy to send my kids to them. No child should be attending a Jim Crow school in 2022.

It sounds good, but certainly sounds like the teachers will need to teach to the more disadvantaged students, leaving the high achievers to fend for themselves / ignored.

It does sound good but it will also lower a high-SES school's GS rating which will in turn anger wealthy parents who believe this impacts their property values. Nevertheless, I think they should at least try to have greater SES diversity at all schools without resorting to long-distance busing.

All that means is that the schools closest to lower SES neighborhoods bear the brunt of diversity while the further away neighborhoods continue to enjoy better schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are public schools where there are significant achievement gaps between students from different socioeconomic backgrounds. Yet some schools thrive despite having great economic differences among the student body - these schools show no significant achievement differences in math, science, social science, and language arts. What are the schools that have no gap doing right? Do these schools provide after-school tutoring, supplemental weekend and summer enrichment? Do these schools provide parents with the resources to supplement their kids or are systemic issues permanent barriers in schools that cannot overcome the gaps (such as parents not having sufficient time because they work in the evenings and nights and needs to sleep during the day)?

No, there are no schools that thrive where others don't. Time and time again, it is shown that this is simply not possible. Here and there experimental schools or programs produce these types of results, but within a couple of years they are back down where they were before. A huge effort with a lot of energy by people who are passionate about the cause CAN change things, but it's impossible to maintain. It's like running a sprint as fast as you can - at some point, you have to slow down. That's what all the research shows, but people keep trotting out this or that school that makes it look like they've beaten the odds, when you look closely, they either haven't really beaten them or they haven't done it for long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tell parents outright that the only way for their kid to do well is to sit down every night with them and read and do homework. This means the parent will have to sacrifice and explains that is what parents with more income do. It works. Follow their example.

Tell parents outright that learning to speak English as quickly as possible will benefit their child in the long run more than anything the school will do.

Tell parents that speaking grammatically correct english is imperative if they would like their child to do well on tests bc tests are written in standard grammatical English and not recognizing it on a test means they do worse then other kids. The tests aren’t going to change. The kids who do well have parents who have figured this it. Follow their example.

Provide identification. and remediation services earlier on for the most common identified learning disabilities.

Develop and institute standard curriculum with standard materials for all classes within a school. Teachers can’t provide additional unless approved.

Kindergarten - morning academic work - afternoon play and social skills work. Each class should have a dedicated therapist to work with students and yea even those who neurotypical need it to.

Either make it easier to move a child with behavior issues to self contained classes or pay more individual aids. There should be a 3 strike policy and then either one has to be done. We lose way to many teachers and staff who have to deal with this but no real solutions.

High school - any action that is a crime - even a misdemeanor - report to police and the child is tracked to alternative school and after a year of success there with no further incidents then can be considered to return.

High school - if a student reaches senior year and can’t read or do math at grade level, then senior year is an intensive year of remediation with the goal of the student being able to read and do math by the end of the year. The student will be granted a basic diploma if they successfully complete the year.

I'm sure no one has ever thought of just telling the parents before. Can't imagine why that wouldn't work.

[Anonymous]

Make it much harder to become a teacher, and pay teachers more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are public schools where there are significant achievement gaps between students from different socioeconomic backgrounds. Yet some schools thrive despite having great economic differences among the student body - these schools show no significant achievement differences in math, science, social science, and language arts. What are the schools that have no gap doing right? Do these schools provide after-school tutoring, supplemental weekend and summer enrichment? Do these schools provide parents with the resources to supplement their kids or are systemic issues permanent barriers in schools that cannot overcome the gaps (such as parents not having sufficient time because they work in the evenings and nights and needs to sleep during the day)?

No, there are no schools that thrive where others don't. Time and time again, it is shown that this is simply not possible. Here and there experimental schools or programs produce these types of results, but within a couple of years they are back down where they were before. A huge effort with a lot of energy by people who are passionate about the cause CAN change things, but it's impossible to maintain. It's like running a sprint as fast as you can - at some point, you have to slow down. That's what all the research shows, but people keep trotting out this or that school that makes it look like they've beaten the odds, when you look closely, they either haven't really beaten them or they haven't done it for long.

1,000X this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are public schools where there are significant achievement gaps between students from different socioeconomic backgrounds. Yet some schools thrive despite having great economic differences among the student body - these schools show no significant achievement differences in math, science, social science, and language arts. What are the schools that have no gap doing right? Do these schools provide after-school tutoring, supplemental weekend and summer enrichment? Do these schools provide parents with the resources to supplement their kids or are systemic issues permanent barriers in schools that cannot overcome the gaps (such as parents not having sufficient time because they work in the evenings and nights and needs to sleep during the day)?

No, there are no schools that thrive where others don't. Time and time again, it is shown that this is simply not possible. Here and there experimental schools or programs produce these types of results, but within a couple of years they are back down where they were before. A huge effort with a lot of energy by people who are passionate about the cause CAN change things, but it's impossible to maintain. It's like running a sprint as fast as you can - at some point, you have to slow down. That's what all the research shows, but people keep trotting out this or that school that makes it look like they've beaten the odds, when you look closely, they either haven't really beaten them or they haven't done it for long.

1,000X this.

The only thing that does work: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are public schools where there are significant achievement gaps between students from different socioeconomic backgrounds. Yet some schools thrive despite having great economic differences among the student body - these schools show no significant achievement differences in math, science, social science, and language arts. What are the schools that have no gap doing right? Do these schools provide after-school tutoring, supplemental weekend and summer enrichment? Do these schools provide parents with the resources to supplement their kids or are systemic issues permanent barriers in schools that cannot overcome the gaps (such as parents not having sufficient time because they work in the evenings and nights and needs to sleep during the day)?

No, there are no schools that thrive where others don't. Time and time again, it is shown that this is simply not possible. Here and there experimental schools or programs produce these types of results, but within a couple of years they are back down where they were before. A huge effort with a lot of energy by people who are passionate about the cause CAN change things, but it's impossible to maintain. It's like running a sprint as fast as you can - at some point, you have to slow down. That's what all the research shows, but people keep trotting out this or that school that makes it look like they've beaten the odds, when you look closely, they either haven't really beaten them or they haven't done it for long.

1,000X this.

The only thing that does work: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one

Studies that back it up:
https://gsppi.berkeley.edu/~ruckerj/johnson_schooldesegregation_NBERw16664.pdf
https://tcf.org/content/report/school-integration-practice-lessons-nine-districts/
https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/studies/pdf/school_composition_and_the_bw_achievement_gap_2015.pdf

[Anonymous]

Thanks for posting the links. Lots of interesting material to go through.

[Anonymous]

You would know if you attended these schools. Why pretend to care when you don't?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Make it much harder to become a teacher, and pay teachers more.

Its not that simple.

You need a good curriculum and several different teaching styles to meet each kids needs. In ES, especially you need multiple (at least 1-2 per grade) ESOL, reading specialists, speech pathologists, OT to provide services and extra help to kids struggling. You need more psychologists to do evaluations of all kids struggling in any area. And, social workers and therapists (as some parents cannot access resources due to finances and other parents are just too busy and don't care). The same goes for MS and HS but at different levels. Early intervention and catching things early makes a huge difference and the key to success.