Should I send my kids to mathnasium?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

and mathnasium

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I don't think the US is terrible. I think FCPS is terrible, largely because they don't have a curriculum or textbook. The classes look to me like the teacher is downloading worksheets from the internet, cobbling together a curriculum the best she can, and using time fillers as stations otherwise. I also don't think the centers model is beneficial to anyone after maybe 2nd grade.

The classes I had back in the 1980s in flyover country were much more rigorous and demanding than what I'm seeing in FCPS AAP.

This is true for DC's class. They have a spiral notebook for math and the first few minutes of every class are spent cutting a worksheet down to size to fit on the notebook paper and gluing it in. They get about 10 mins of direct instruction while they're sitting on a carpet, and some of that time is spent getting everyone to find a spot, be quiet, and listen. They then go back to their tables (they don't have desks) to work on their worksheet. I haven't been able to figure out where the centers come in to play in this chain of events but I know they do them because DD complains kids just mess around. This is 4th grade.

She was previously in Catholic school but the social situation was tough for her/us, it was expensive, and I drank the kool-aid that math and science are so much better in public. She was rejected from AAP this year with all of her scores in the high 120s so we do Mathnasium to ensure she's actually getting an education. The irony is that monthly fees for Mathnasium cost about 50% of her entire Catholic school tuition but that's life.

Ten minutes of direct instruction and then time doing a worksheet is math class. Whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not isn't an issue. For all those people lamenting the quality of grade school math, they seem to be forgetting that it is grade school math.

So without a textbook, what resource should I point my DD to when she can't hear what the teacher is saying because kids are talking and punching each other, and when she copies the notes from the whiteboard incorrectly because she can't read the teacher's messy handwriting? Why did I have to learn about Kahn Academy and Prodigy from this site and why do I have to spend time hunting around on the internet for other examples of the exact lesson the teacher is trying to teach them? Just rhetorical questions, no answers needed. Nothing anyone says here is going to justify any of that in my mind or make math class any less chaotic for my DD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The mathnasium in McLean is their busiest location in the entire DC metro area, they are open for longer hours and open on Saturday as well, that tells you all you need to know. We moved to McLean past summer and my kids have been doing fine in Gen Ed and so far I have been going by let kids be kids but we are starting mathnesium in couple of weeks. I cannot tell you the kind of rigor their classmates are being put through, I gotta get mine ready to compete. Mine are 3rd graders and pretty good at math but I want to be solid and very good at it. My kids are not in AAP but my plan is 1 year of mathnasium and then AoPS.

BTW, I went their 2-3 times and every time they had majority white kids with a sprinkling of Asian, this myth of only Asians tutoring the kids is just a myth.

+1 My child has been attending Mathnasium in McLean for months now, and this has been my observation as well. Perhaps Kumon is more popular in the Asian community? I only say that because I've never known a white person to send their kid to Kumon, and the friends I have who have mentioned Kumon over the years are Asian.

I am an American born white woman, and I don't understand all the nasty things that are written about Asian families on this board.

it’s just jealousy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an immigrant and Asian, I rolled my eyes to those immigrant Asian acquaintances who sent their children to "tutoring". But, not anymore.

When my child was in 3rd grade AAP class, I spent sometime to understand what was going on in the classroom, and had a sudden realization that the school work is not enough. My kid naturally is good with math, but his work is messy and written all over the place. Actually he rarely wrote anything done since it was not required in school and he could do those questions in his head. You could say that he is smart but I know this habit will only create big troubles when he is at higher grades. (I teach science in college and have seen plenty of students.) I honestly do not understand why we do not use textbook in FCPS. Students need to see organized and consistent examples of problem solving - not random worksheets from different resources, they need to know how to read by highlighting and taking notes on the books directly... Well, my child is now going to "tutoring" so he can have a textbook and associated homework, and can learn things in a structured way.

I'm an immigrant and Asian and my AAP kids don't get formal tutoring- YET. The one in third grade is learning Pre-algebra and the one in fourth grade is learning Algebra. They are working on some kind math competition in the school and there is a very tight sense of community. My kid don't appear to struggle, but they do seem to enjoy the competitiveness that the program is starting now.

I don't think textbooks (Kumon or Mathnasium) are absolutely necessary. FCPS provides prodigy for us at home and we work with novel math problems (we work on identifying patterns). I think it's more of seeing the beauty of math in the patterns and repitition that truly helps kids at this stage. This being said: my fourth grader loves the Everything You Need to Ace Math in One Big Fat Notebook: The Complete Middle School Study Guide (Big Fat Notebooks) and I use games from Math with Bad Drawings. But in general, at this age, I feel like tutoring is silly. Maybe in 7th and 8th grade we will re-address it.

You are their "tutor" ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I don't think the US is terrible. I think FCPS is terrible, largely because they don't have a curriculum or textbook. The classes look to me like the teacher is downloading worksheets from the internet, cobbling together a curriculum the best she can, and using time fillers as stations otherwise. I also don't think the centers model is beneficial to anyone after maybe 2nd grade.

The classes I had back in the 1980s in flyover country were much more rigorous and demanding than what I'm seeing in FCPS AAP.

This is true for DC's class. They have a spiral notebook for math and the first few minutes of every class are spent cutting a worksheet down to size to fit on the notebook paper and gluing it in. They get about 10 mins of direct instruction while they're sitting on a carpet, and some of that time is spent getting everyone to find a spot, be quiet, and listen. They then go back to their tables (they don't have desks) to work on their worksheet. I haven't been able to figure out where the centers come in to play in this chain of events but I know they do them because DD complains kids just mess around. This is 4th grade.

She was previously in Catholic school but the social situation was tough for her/us, it was expensive, and I drank the kool-aid that math and science are so much better in public. She was rejected from AAP this year with all of her scores in the high 120s so we do Mathnasium to ensure she's actually getting an education. The irony is that monthly fees for Mathnasium cost about 50% of her entire Catholic school tuition but that's life.

Ten minutes of direct instruction and then time doing a worksheet is math class. Whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not isn't an issue. For all those people lamenting the quality of grade school math, they seem to be forgetting that it is grade school math.

So without a textbook, what resource should I point my DD to when she can't hear what the teacher is saying because kids are talking and punching each other, and when she copies the notes from the whiteboard incorrectly because she can't read the teacher's messy handwriting? Why did I have to learn about Kahn Academy and Prodigy from this site and why do I have to spend time hunting around on the internet for other examples of the exact lesson the teacher is trying to teach them? Just rhetorical questions, no answers needed. Nothing anyone says here is going to justify any of that in my mind or make math class any less chaotic for my DD.

How about discussing this issues with the school principal to get to the root. The AAP can do better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I don't think the US is terrible. I think FCPS is terrible, largely because they don't have a curriculum or textbook. The classes look to me like the teacher is downloading worksheets from the internet, cobbling together a curriculum the best she can, and using time fillers as stations otherwise. I also don't think the centers model is beneficial to anyone after maybe 2nd grade.

The classes I had back in the 1980s in flyover country were much more rigorous and demanding than what I'm seeing in FCPS AAP.

This is true for DC's class. They have a spiral notebook for math and the first few minutes of every class are spent cutting a worksheet down to size to fit on the notebook paper and gluing it in. They get about 10 mins of direct instruction while they're sitting on a carpet, and some of that time is spent getting everyone to find a spot, be quiet, and listen. They then go back to their tables (they don't have desks) to work on their worksheet. I haven't been able to figure out where the centers come in to play in this chain of events but I know they do them because DD complains kids just mess around. This is 4th grade.

She was previously in Catholic school but the social situation was tough for her/us, it was expensive, and I drank the kool-aid that math and science are so much better in public. She was rejected from AAP this year with all of her scores in the high 120s so we do Mathnasium to ensure she's actually getting an education. The irony is that monthly fees for Mathnasium cost about 50% of her entire Catholic school tuition but that's life.

Ten minutes of direct instruction and then time doing a worksheet is math class. Whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not isn't an issue. For all those people lamenting the quality of grade school math, they seem to be forgetting that it is grade school math.

So without a textbook, what resource should I point my DD to when she can't hear what the teacher is saying because kids are talking and punching each other, and when she copies the notes from the whiteboard incorrectly because she can't read the teacher's messy handwriting? Why did I have to learn about Kahn Academy and Prodigy from this site and why do I have to spend time hunting around on the internet for other examples of the exact lesson the teacher is trying to teach them? Just rhetorical questions, no answers needed. Nothing anyone says here is going to justify any of that in my mind or make math class any less chaotic for my DD.

How about discussing this issues with the school principal to get to the root. The AAP can do better.

What makes you think I haven't? At some point, after all attempts at fixing a situation are futile, you need to take control and fix it yourself. Hence, Mathnasium.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I don't think the US is terrible. I think FCPS is terrible, largely because they don't have a curriculum or textbook. The classes look to me like the teacher is downloading worksheets from the internet, cobbling together a curriculum the best she can, and using time fillers as stations otherwise. I also don't think the centers model is beneficial to anyone after maybe 2nd grade.

The classes I had back in the 1980s in flyover country were much more rigorous and demanding than what I'm seeing in FCPS AAP.

This is true for DC's class. They have a spiral notebook for math and the first few minutes of every class are spent cutting a worksheet down to size to fit on the notebook paper and gluing it in. They get about 10 mins of direct instruction while they're sitting on a carpet, and some of that time is spent getting everyone to find a spot, be quiet, and listen. They then go back to their tables (they don't have desks) to work on their worksheet. I haven't been able to figure out where the centers come in to play in this chain of events but I know they do them because DD complains kids just mess around. This is 4th grade.

She was previously in Catholic school but the social situation was tough for her/us, it was expensive, and I drank the kool-aid that math and science are so much better in public. She was rejected from AAP this year with all of her scores in the high 120s so we do Mathnasium to ensure she's actually getting an education. The irony is that monthly fees for Mathnasium cost about 50% of her entire Catholic school tuition but that's life.

Op here. This is my concern. There is no textbook. Teacher groups kids by ability. 3rd grade DS apparently Is in the lowest group who doesn’t already know the material. They do small groups. There is this math prodigy computer program that they do in class.

OP, I feel obligated to warn you about Prodigy, especially since there are multiple posts here that suggest Prodigy is good/useful for kids. Last year I heard of this program when browsing online and out of curiosity I decided to try a free 7 day trial, since I love both math and video games. I played about 3 days for multiple hours trying to shake out all the features. The program is > 95% game, and < 5% math, and I'm being really generous here. Everything about it has been (predatorily?) designed to get kids to playing the game and NOT doing math. There are countless advertisements asking to pay a monthly fee for "upgrades", etc. They give free items, then ask for money. These are exactly the same marketing tactics that draws kids in to many of the stupid games found on phones these days (and which lead kids to ask parents to pay money for in item games, etc). The game play is boring and the math is very basic and not interesting at all. Their algorithm is supposed to be adaptive, yet the hardest problems I encountered were simple concepts such as graphing points on a coordinate grid (which according to them is aimed at middle school levels, the highest level Prodigy goes to in 8th grade). I did hundreds of questions in my 3 day "binge" and was able to do every single problem without pencil and paper (save a few only because the numbers required a calculator). They were that basic and simple one step exercises. At the end I finally realized that I had wasted my time and there was nothing more to this game (I cannot call it remotely close to a math program, it is a game with math questions added in as an afterthought). The name Prodigy is also ridiculous, because I found no creative math, nor even anything that would be considered above level.

I would not recommend any kid older than 3rd grade play this for fear of addiction (to the game, not the math). I would maybe consider letting my 2nd grader play it as a fun activity at home (in lieu of other video games), if it wasn't for the addictive design that tries to get consumers to buy items and spend money, which is really a terrible thing. But the fact that our schools paid money for it and are letting kids do it there? It definitely makes me angry and I think that decision is extremely irresponsible.

On a lighter note, I've been thinking about gamification for math and while I don't know of anything great from a modern gameplay point of view, I have found a version of the old classic Number Munchers game in the browser. While it would only be useful for elementary school kids, it's actually amazing at what it's trying to do, which is to build up quick thinking calculation skills in addition/subtraction/division/multiplication/primes/number inequalities. It is almost 100% math mixed with edge of your seat game excitement (in a similar style to PacMan, you're trying to get away from the monsters on the screen that are chasing you, while you calculate and "munch" boxes that satisfy the given criteria). The high scores and Hall of fame can also make it competitive for kids to try to do better all while actually developing some gaming skill of avoiding monsters). I still have memories of eagerly waiting for my 15-20 minutes in the computer lab to play number munchers in the 90s... I'm sure some of us here will remember a similar experience. Anyway enjoy:

https://classicreload.com/number-munchers.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I don't think the US is terrible. I think FCPS is terrible, largely because they don't have a curriculum or textbook. The classes look to me like the teacher is downloading worksheets from the internet, cobbling together a curriculum the best she can, and using time fillers as stations otherwise. I also don't think the centers model is beneficial to anyone after maybe 2nd grade.

The classes I had back in the 1980s in flyover country were much more rigorous and demanding than what I'm seeing in FCPS AAP.

This is true for DC's class. They have a spiral notebook for math and the first few minutes of every class are spent cutting a worksheet down to size to fit on the notebook paper and gluing it in. They get about 10 mins of direct instruction while they're sitting on a carpet, and some of that time is spent getting everyone to find a spot, be quiet, and listen. They then go back to their tables (they don't have desks) to work on their worksheet. I haven't been able to figure out where the centers come in to play in this chain of events but I know they do them because DD complains kids just mess around. This is 4th grade.

She was previously in Catholic school but the social situation was tough for her/us, it was expensive, and I drank the kool-aid that math and science are so much better in public. She was rejected from AAP this year with all of her scores in the high 120s so we do Mathnasium to ensure she's actually getting an education. The irony is that monthly fees for Mathnasium cost about 50% of her entire Catholic school tuition but that's life.

Op here. This is my concern. There is no textbook. Teacher groups kids by ability. 3rd grade DS apparently Is in the lowest group who doesn’t already know the material. They do small groups. There is this math prodigy computer program that they do in class.

OP, I feel obligated to warn you about Prodigy, especially since there are multiple posts here that suggest Prodigy is good/useful for kids. Last year I heard of this program when browsing online and out of curiosity I decided to try a free 7 day trial, since I love both math and video games. I played about 3 days for multiple hours trying to shake out all the features. The program is > 95% game, and < 5% math, and I'm being really generous here. Everything about it has been (predatorily?) designed to get kids to playing the game and NOT doing math. There are countless advertisements asking to pay a monthly fee for "upgrades", etc. They give free items, then ask for money. These are exactly the same marketing tactics that draws kids in to many of the stupid games found on phones these days (and which lead kids to ask parents to pay money for in item games, etc). The game play is boring and the math is very basic and not interesting at all. Their algorithm is supposed to be adaptive, yet the hardest problems I encountered were simple concepts such as graphing points on a coordinate grid (which according to them is aimed at middle school levels, the highest level Prodigy goes to in 8th grade). I did hundreds of questions in my 3 day "binge" and was able to do every single problem without pencil and paper (save a few only because the numbers required a calculator). They were that basic and simple one step exercises. At the end I finally realized that I had wasted my time and there was nothing more to this game (I cannot call it remotely close to a math program, it is a game with math questions added in as an afterthought). The name Prodigy is also ridiculous, because I found no creative math, nor even anything that would be considered above level.

I would not recommend any kid older than 3rd grade play this for fear of addiction (to the game, not the math). I would maybe consider letting my 2nd grader play it as a fun activity at home (in lieu of other video games), if it wasn't for the addictive design that tries to get consumers to buy items and spend money, which is really a terrible thing. But the fact that our schools paid money for it and are letting kids do it there? It definitely makes me angry and I think that decision is extremely irresponsible.

On a lighter note, I've been thinking about gamification for math and while I don't know of anything great from a modern gameplay point of view, I have found a version of the old classic Number Munchers game in the browser. While it would only be useful for elementary school kids, it's actually amazing at what it's trying to do, which is to build up quick thinking calculation skills in addition/subtraction/division/multiplication/primes/number inequalities. It is almost 100% math mixed with edge of your seat game excitement (in a similar style to PacMan, you're trying to get away from the monsters on the screen that are chasing you, while you calculate and "munch" boxes that satisfy the given criteria). The high scores and Hall of fame can also make it competitive for kids to try to do better all while actually developing some gaming skill of avoiding monsters). I still have memories of eagerly waiting for my 15-20 minutes in the computer lab to play number munchers in the 90s... I'm sure some of us here will remember a similar experience. Anyway enjoy:

https://classicreload.com/number-munchers.html

Thank you sooooo much for sharing this!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

and mathnasium

I’ve lived in other countries with less monetary resources but more qualified teachers willing to teach. None of those countries had Kumon, Mathnasium, or the others. Families spent more time outdoors and kids were more focused and welcoming in school. Parents were not harassing fellow parents with donations for school staff. The adm was very effective without receiving discretionary funds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The more math the better, if you can afford it. Kumon and Mathnasium are very different programs from one another. You’re going to have to pick one do it asap.

Why the more math the better? What are you trying to accomplish? Not every profession...even in engineering, etc needs anything more than the common progression of math. Algebra, Geometry, Trig, Calc I, Calc II, Calc III, and a few more. Why do you need to blow your kid's summer or whatever doing "the more math the better"? Honest question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

and mathnasium

I’ve lived in other countries with less monetary resources but more qualified teachers willing to teach. None of those countries had Kumon, Mathnasium, or the others. Families spent more time outdoors and kids were more focused and welcoming in school. Parents were not harassing fellow parents with donations for school staff. The adm was very effective without receiving discretionary funds.

Good to know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The more math the better, if you can afford it. Kumon and Mathnasium are very different programs from one another. You’re going to have to pick one do it asap.

Why the more math the better? What are you trying to accomplish? Not every profession...even in engineering, etc needs anything more than the common progression of math. Algebra, Geometry, Trig, Calc I, Calc II, Calc III, and a few more. Why do you need to blow your kid's summer or whatever doing "the more math the better"? Honest question.

I don’t think the poster meant that they were looking for more math than Calculus III at this stage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Ten minutes of direct instruction and then time doing a worksheet is math class. Whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not isn't an issue. For all those people lamenting the quality of grade school math, they seem to be forgetting that it is grade school math.

So what should kids be doing the other 45 minutes of math class?

Also, whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not is an issue. If there's a textbook, then lessons are taught in a coherent manner with logical sequencing and worked examples. The problem sets provided with textbooks flow naturally from the lesson and reinforce it. Worksheets downloaded from the internet often don't fully follow the lesson, don't do a great job of fully exploring the topic of study, don't provide a natural progression of easier to more challenging problems, and haven't gone through any quality control whatsoever. I'm surprised that anyone would think that a teacher could just cobble together free resources from the internet and end up with anything remotely akin to a textbook.

Grade school math has changed significantly in the last 30 years. Back in the day, we covered material more slowly, but also much more in depth. Classes had longer segments of whole class direct instruction, worktime, time to ask the teacher questions, having to present problems on the chalkboard, and so on. The entire class time was filled with learning.

In my kids' AAP center, they rotate through the game station, the computer station, the sudoku station, and things like that to waste time between sessions with the teacher. For the most part, they can't ask questions or clarifications, since the teacher is always busy with another group. Due to the station work, the class is a chaotic madhouse most of the time, and it's too noisy for kids to hear the teacher or concentrate. If the kids have questions, there's no textbook to turn to for answers. There's no consistency between the classes, since teachers in the same grade will cobble together their own internet resources. Most of these resources are poor quality and not a great fit for the lessons they are supposed to be learning. Math class is at best 25% class and 75% wasting time.

[Anonymous]

14:50 PP again. I'm not the "the more math the better" poster, but that poster has a point. At my kids' AAP center, the station work ends up being a lot of kids just talking, playing card games, or playing around on the computer. The teacher is busy with her small groups and doesn't notice or stop the playing around. The kids probably end up with less than 2 hours of math instruction+ work per week, with the rest of their math time being glorified playtime. I don't mind sending my kids to AoPS for 2 hours per week, because then they're at least getting a reasonable amount of math instruction per week. If they actually received 5 quality hours of math class at school, I wouldn't send them to extracurricular math.

Also, most of the kids aren't fine with the math class structure. Over half of the kids fail to meet the benchmark on IAAT, which is pretty pathetic. A lot of the kids have significant gaps in their math understanding. Most of the ones who don't are attending Mathnasium, kumon, RSM, or AoPS.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the PP that Prodigy is more of a game than a math game. My son is in 4th grade and wants to play this game all the time. It is supposed to practice math but with a calculator embedded, I see him just plug and chug numbers instead of manually calculate anything himself. If you haven't observed how your child play this game, you should.

I did not know that FCPS actually pays for Prodigy, they should buy Beast Academy instead.