Dartmouth finally publishes their SAT data in the Common Data Set after dropping TO; white enrollment surges

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Strivers: are Asian applicants now hooked at Dartmouth?

Maybe Asians who normally would go to Dartmouth are getting into better schools now?

Are you saying there aren't that many high stats Asian kids to fill T20?
Even LACs like Carleton has 20% Asian, nearly doubles.

I think he's saying that Dartmouth didn't used to discriminate much to begin with so when the other schools stopped discriminating as much, the kids that Dartmouth used to be able to get ended up going to other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At the other end of the spectrum, Hopkins saw 50% of their class of 2029 made up of Asian Americans. What gives?

Hopkins is the dream school for a lot of kids. Dartmouth is the dream school for a lot fewer kids but plenty apply anyways. More of those asian kids are getting into their dream schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At the other end of the spectrum, Hopkins saw 50% of their class of 2029 made up of Asian Americans. What gives?

Which would you choose between Dartmouth and Hopkins?
If you are white, ...
If you are Asian, ...

Wasian family here. Dartmouth all the way. My kid turned down Hopkins for a NESCAC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My legacy DC, top 10% at rigorous private, national level ECs, 36 ACT with all sections being 36, very authentic and personal essays, was flat out rejected in ED. We donate annually too. Not anymore.

I'm sure, they're broken up about your $1000/year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fall 2020 freshmen data sets, ivies:
(Best correlation to today as it was after the 2016 recentering)

25—50(est)--75

Harvard 1460-1520–1580
UPenn. 1460- 1515-1570
Yale. 1470- 1515-1560
Princeton. 1460- 1510–1560
Brown. 1440- 1495- 1550
Dartmouth 1430–1490—1550
Cornell. 1410–1475–1530

Columbia’s does not appear to be available. They had a long history of not publishing it.

Dartmouth ‘s new data set is stronger not weaker; Dartmouth likely remains bottom three in the Ivy League

our high school college counselor very helpfully told my kids that unhooked kids with no major national awards need to be right in btw that 50% and 75% number as a rule. which was helpful when they were doing SAT prep. And my kids were coming from known feeders. Get that SAT up in the 1530/1540 range

How about unhooked kids with good grades and 1570+? What are the chance this kid could get into at least one T15 if applying to all of them assuming ECs are decent and teachers' recs are amazing?

Very high chance. Statistically better than a 60% chance of admission to one T15.

Where is 60% chance coming from? LOL

Statistics. Distribution of 1570 scorers spread across Ivy, Ivy plus and top selective colleges. Hint: the top 50 contain the vast majority of these scorers. The top 15 contain more than 1/3rd. While colleges intentionally hide their admission rates by SAT, and the college board only gives out percentiles now, the data is the data.

It doesn't add up, 1/3rd of 1570+ to T15, that's 33%, but only 60% of all applicants submit SAT score, so it's only 20% of chance.

From Chatgpt, each year there are about average 10k scores 1570+, for T15, in best case, 2500 students are 1570+, worst case, is just 1200. So, it's 12%-25% chance in terms of SAT submitter, not overall chance.

Julius says there are 7,000-8,000 1570+, not 10,000. Basic extreme value theory.

20,000 known 1530 scorers (College Board published percentile data)
Unknown: 1570 or higher
Unknown: 1570 or higher superscorers

1570 scorers or higher will be at most half of 1530 scorers by even a basic IRT regression analysis.

Charitably, assume 9,000 1570 scorers. Then look how many of these scorers are at Ivy or Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Hopkins, Duke.

Then tell me again that a 1570 is going to get shut out of a T15.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a Dartmouth freshman. Disclaimer: they're our oldest child so I don't have experience with another current day college and I didn't attend an Ivy or similar school myself.

Admission trends there are hard to pin down. Since our kid enrolled we've heard from half dozen legacy families in our larger circle of friends/coworkers/etc whose kids were rejected for the classes of 2029 and 2030. The perhaps most noteworthy is a friend's child whose parents both attended (and met there), are reasonably active alums, sibling attends, had great grades/scores/etc and yet was ultimately rejected. Got into Hopkins, Duke and Princeton (!) unhooked and attends one of these. This stands out as the most wild of the legacy rejections I personally now know but I could share almost a half dozen more that are almost as noteworthy.

The student body is a real mixed group. You have the children of actual billionaires (at maybe the highest concentration anywhere) and many of multi millionaires. They tend to have graduated at or near the very top of prep or boarding school classes. Bright and well trained. Many of this group are Dartmouth legacies.

Then you have the upper middle or professional class kids who are very smart and typical of what one thinks of as high achieving, Ivy level kids. Decent number of Asians in this group. My own child is in here.

Then you have a lot of kids who frankly aren't very remarkable. Most bring rural/geographic diversity and economic diversity. Many struggle. Since we're talking SAT scores, this group often had SAT scores in the 1400s, even 1300s (my kids knows or knew because apparently at some point in early freshman year this comes out in chatter). Dartmouth currently seems to love admitting this demographic (there are many of them) and views admitting them as being a large part of their current mission. I don't know if this is similar at other Ivies or other top 20s as I don't have another kid in college.

Which brings up the question of what the point of an Ivy is. Is it to educate the best and brightest, regardless of prior opportunity? Or is it to give a top opportunity to kids who will benefit most from it? Dartmouth appears to believe very strongly in the second. However, it's meant that kids like mine (a pretty typical DMV high-achiever) are skating through college and not really being challenged. To be frank, my child has a 4.0 and hasn't worked very hard. They will tell you that their high school cohort was by-in-large brighter than many classmates at college. In this regard it's been disappointing. I'm not sure what the rest of the years will hold. I'd be interested in hearing what other Dartmouth parents think.

So, your analysis is that only rich people and their children are intelligent (please don't start screaming about unfair characterizations, wealthy and upper middle class professional people's children are the only one receiving your praise in your words), and you believe that a large population of students are economic diversity or rural diversity. For starters, in a given class, maybe 10-15 students from underrepresented states make up that diversity. Second, being poor doesn't mean you received a poor education-many low income students attended top boarding schools, magnet programs or had academic opportunities through other means. Lastly, it sounds like Dartmouth is "educat[ing] the best and brightest, regardless of prior opportunity," just not falling into the trap that only the wealthy aristocracy deserve a seat. Education has been democratized. Live with it.

The dumb hick stereotype exists for a reason.

[Anonymous]

White enrollment didn’t “surge” - it returned to pre-TO days, as expected. TO was yet another tragic experiment in American education.

[Anonymous]

If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fall 2020 freshmen data sets, ivies:
(Best correlation to today as it was after the 2016 recentering)

25—50(est)--75

Harvard 1460-1520–1580
UPenn. 1460- 1515-1570
Yale. 1470- 1515-1560
Princeton. 1460- 1510–1560
Brown. 1440- 1495- 1550
Dartmouth 1430–1490—1550
Cornell. 1410–1475–1530

Columbia’s does not appear to be available. They had a long history of not publishing it.

Dartmouth ‘s new data set is stronger not weaker; Dartmouth likely remains bottom three in the Ivy League

our high school college counselor very helpfully told my kids that unhooked kids with no major national awards need to be right in btw that 50% and 75% number as a rule. which was helpful when they were doing SAT prep. And my kids were coming from known feeders. Get that SAT up in the 1530/1540 range

How about unhooked kids with good grades and 1570+? What are the chance this kid could get into at least one T15 if applying to all of them assuming ECs are decent and teachers' recs are amazing?

Very high chance. Statistically better than a 60% chance of admission to one T15.

Where is 60% chance coming from? LOL

Statistics. Distribution of 1570 scorers spread across Ivy, Ivy plus and top selective colleges. Hint: the top 50 contain the vast majority of these scorers. The top 15 contain more than 1/3rd. While colleges intentionally hide their admission rates by SAT, and the college board only gives out percentiles now, the data is the data.

It doesn't add up, 1/3rd of 1570+ to T15, that's 33%, but only 60% of all applicants submit SAT score, so it's only 20% of chance.

From Chatgpt, each year there are about average 10k scores 1570+, for T15, in best case, 2500 students are 1570+, worst case, is just 1200. So, it's 12%-25% chance in terms of SAT submitter, not overall chance.

Julius says there are 7,000-8,000 1570+, not 10,000. Basic extreme value theory.

20,000 known 1530 scorers (College Board published percentile data)
Unknown: 1570 or higher
Unknown: 1570 or higher superscorers

1570 scorers or higher will be at most half of 1530 scorers by even a basic IRT regression analysis.

Charitably, assume 9,000 1570 scorers. Then look how many of these scorers are at Ivy or Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Hopkins, Duke.

Then tell me again that a 1570 is going to get shut out of a T15.

What shut out you are talking about? let's take low of 7000, take high of 2500 in T15(Chatgpt number), that's about 1/3rd chance for SAT submitter, overall is 20% chance considering 40% not submitting SAT.

[Anonymous]

Endless bickering by sad losers. The fact that Asians and JHU were brought up together in a completely unrelated thread is very telling about the kind of people who live their lives on this forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

Agreed, but you overlooked another important perspective, curriculum rigor of a school.

I would think everyone here will agree Sidwell is much more rigorous than Anacostia. I remembered, discussed here or somewhere, a kid with 4.9 WGPA, basically all APs, I don't know how could it be, but the high school was ranked after 12000. UMC have advantage, but intelligence and diligence play bigger part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

Why didn't rural and urban kids have access to practice test workbooks? Come on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

Why didn't rural and urban kids have access to practice test workbooks? Come on.

Their base education is worse than those at ritzy private schools. I don’t know why inequality is so hard to get through the heads of wealthy people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

Why didn't rural and urban kids have access to practice test workbooks? Come on.

Exactly. The previous post viewed rural kids as dumb kids who are capable of scoring 1300 or 1400 only. A lot of big state schools are in rural areas of flyover states (e.g., Kansas State, Ole Miss, Oklahoma State, Clemson, etc.). These schools have lots of faculty members with PhDs whose offsprings easily achieve 1500+/34+, enough to supply t20s with competitive applicants from their flyover states. Not everyone in rural areas are lowly-educated red necks with missing teeth and no access to test prep material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

Why didn't rural and urban kids have access to practice test workbooks? Come on.

Their base education is worse than those at ritzy private schools. I don’t know why inequality is so hard to get through the heads of wealthy people.

This theory is always being brought up, but there are very bad private too, and there are lots of good public can crush private.
TJ probably has best faculties and most resources in Fairfax, plus most talented student body, but, there still quite some kids go to mediocre colleges, like Marymount, it's up to individual after all.