Child is severely left out
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Anonymous
What am I referencing? The tone and content Why do people actually (not allegedly) suggest not going to the counselor? Because they end up making the situation worse. |
Anonymous
If you can't explain how or why it makes the situation worse, then your comments really don't mean anything. What about the tone or content actually lead to seeking advice from a counselor making things worse for the student being left out? Explain what you mean, if you can't, it's because you literally aren't talking facts. |
Anonymous
By "tone and content" I was referring to the post by "someone who works in schools". It was dismissive, antagonistic and bureaucratic in tone. Content wise it demanded a bunch of CYA legalistic explicit instructions to be given that very clearly show a disconnect between how things work in theory and how they work in practice. Overall it seemed very ignorant about how information spreads among students in a school. All of which is very ironic and does not engender trust. Substantively, those that say that going to a counselor will make things worse say so because: the school does not have either the ability or the inclination to fix things while information inevitably leaks and gets distorted which is exacerbated because the "victim" is out of the communication loop. School counselors are equivalent to a company's HR department. |
Anonymous
Respectfully, you haven’t explained how or why you’d help make the situation better by knowing the details, with substantive suggestions. That’s the point PP was making. If you have concrete examples of actions counselors and teachers could take that would benefit the student—that you’ve actually used and seen work to improve the experience of the student being treated poorly—why not say what they are? -np |
Anonymous
| We moved out of the area to a mid-size city. It's been awesome. Our DDs made lasting friendships and they haven't been bullied and marginalized like they were in the DMV. They don't even want to visit the DMV. Something toxic is truly in the water there. |
Anonymous
It does not stay confidential. Kids find out and increase bullying. This is obvious So sorry someone is in this situation |
Anonymous
The details are what matters. But to give you examples based on OP's original scenario, school counselors are supposed to have counseling experience (imagine that!). Which means, at MINIMUM they can have some helpful advice to teens on how to understand the way they're being treated, what it usually really IS about and what so often it is NOT about, what she should focus on instead, and ways to protect yourself and possibly where opportunities are in the school programming to connect with other students. The size of the school matters, so the advice a counselor in a tiny school might give (where there are fewer students and less choice in other friends to look for) vs. a larger school (where there may be more students and more opportunities to engage, like more clubs or afterschool programs), but the main point is that that is the counselor in THAT school. They know the climate, they know the teachers, they know many of the students. And there are very basic types of advice they can give depending on the personality of the student being left out, and the rest of the context around who the girls leaving her out are, the school's liklihood (or unliklihood) of intervening depending on what the behaviors are, and also knowing history of the girls doing the leaving out. The counselor can't tell OP and her DD any personal details about any other students, but they can use what they know about DD and the social circles at the school and psychology in general and maybe give DD and her mom advice on different ways to think about making friends, to process how people treat her, and maybe places/ways in that school to look for other friends. Again, there are so many details that dictate how a counselor sees what's happening and what advice they give. But to not go to the very person in the school building whose JOB it is to understand the age group of the students, understand school dynamics, social dynamics, and know the classroom dynamics too (because some teachers manage this better than others), to see what advice they have or how they see the situation, is not talking to the person with the most info about the big picture. Everyone has a choice not to talk to the counselor. But coming to DCUM and only listening to 10 pages of conflicting advice, and NOT talking to a couple of DD's teachers and the school counselor, is missing the people with the most helpful perspectives. And if what any of them say sounds terrible to OP and her DD, well at least they asked. But far more often than not, the counselor and/or a teacher is going to actually give helpful perspective and helpful advice. That's about as specific as I can be without a lot more specific detail. |
Anonymous
You seem clueless. |
Anonymous
And you just say things like "You seem clueless" and "This is why no one talks to the counselor", without saying a single word of what I said that is inaccurate or what someone "with a clue" would say or do differently. And that just is what it is. This is DCUM, and there are a million opinions, most of them interesting, but also many of them people who just say stuff like "You seem clueless" as if that actually dismisses or discounts everything they're responding to. Go for it, have fun. You haven't made a single valid point that you've explained, so I'm not worried at all that you think I'm clueless. What I do hope is that anyone going through anything like OP (like, really going through it) doesn't skip the step of talking to at least one of their DC's teachers, and also the school counselor, to run the situation by them and ask for advice. If you are worried about any school staff talking to the mean girls/mean boys, bullies or parents of any of them, say that before you give details to find out what the school's protocol is with dealing with harassment or meanness or bullying. Find that out first if you're worried about it, then do what feels right to you. But as interesting and sometimes helpful as DCUM is, it's also full of people who don't have a clue, and whether you (not the "you're clueless" PP but anyone else) think I'm clueless or not, talk to the people in your DC's life who know the most about your DC (teachers), the school social environment (teachers and the counselor), and the psychology behind what students do and what has been shown to work best in similar situations with similar types of behaviors. If you're really really worried about your DC, why wouldn't you want those people's advice? DCUM doesn't know your child or your child's school. Maybe talk to some people who really do, at least hear what advise or insights they have. Or, don't. In the end, it really is up to you. |
Anonymous
| You make some good points but, in the same spirit of honesty, if the Counselor is, "the very person in the school building whose JOB it is to understand the age group of the students, understand school dynamics, social dynamics, and know the classroom dynamics too (because some teachers manage this better than others)," then shouldn't they know about what's going on before the parents do? |
Anonymous
That's a really good question. If you go back to OP's original post and the posts after that describing the behaviors, and then you imagine a busy school, ask yourself how much of how the girls are treating her would be obviously visible to a counselor who is definitely moving around in the hallways, in the lunch room, in wherever they do recess or outdoor time, yes they're usually moving around (when they're not having actual meetings with students and parents and teachers, which obviously also takes up a ton of their time). How visible do you think OP's DD's dynamics with her friends are? In a lot of cases depending on the dynamics it's way more likely a teacher will notice before the counselor, because if a student looks upset or there's a verbal exchange that is loud enough and happens repeatedly that the teacher hears and finds concerning, it'll be the teacher who is with the students for however long class is, they have longer to notice. And teachers who aren't struggling just to stay on task and deliver the lesson may notice and check in with the student who looks upset or starts acting differently than they usually do, but obviously there is a lot going on before, during and after class, so if it doesn't rise to level of an outright violation of school rules (like disrupting class or saying really inappropriate things or physical exchanges), a teacher may not check in. But also some teachers tell the counselor, or some teachers check in with the child first and then tell the counselor. But just like in all other areas of life, if the behavior that is the problem isn't very visible and noticeable on its face, even the best counselors are not always going to notice it in a busy school. But you know what they do notice and most teachers notice? They notice who sits together, who sits alone. They notice who's always disrupting class or being disrespectful. They notice which students are always making fun of others, and which students are always making fun of. And where there are serious mean things that happen when most people don't notice, ONLY if someone (the victim, or someone observing) tells a teacher or a counselor will a teacher or a counselor know. Counselors know who they get repeated complaints about. Counselors will know which students are struggling if they go to the counselor and tell them what's going on. Because counselors are the point people for helping students struggling in ways other than with classwork, they and the Principals are usually the people who know the most about what is happening. And the counselors are the people most walking the school paying attention to dynamics and stand out students (for good or bad reasons). But it's still impossible for them to notice everything or know about verbal, non-obvious dynamics like leaving someone out of conversations or lunches etc. And, depending on the school, some schools have so many major problems or so many kids acting up, the counselor is busy with the most challenging situations and even more it falls on students or families to let them know what's going on with their student. No matter how you cut it though, counselors and your kid's teachers are always going to be the people who know the most because they have the most exposure and parents, kids and others report most to those people. Going back to OP's post, imagine yourself in a normal busy school, how much do you think the behaviors OP's DD are going through are going to stand out to anyone in the midst of all else that's going on? That's a sincere question for you, I'm interested in what you think would be very visible so that the responsibility for noticing or knowing might fall on a teacher or counselor, vs. the importance of raising these issues with them so they now CAN pay closer attention or maybe they already have plenty of advice for navigating it? |
Anonymous
| NP This conversation has steered into place that drives me nuts as a parent. I've got a DS and a DD who are both kids their friends trust and tell them al their problems. MOstly it's regular drama for their age group, but a cuople of times it's serious: cutting, eating issues, bullying, sexual harassment, more. Our kids tell us cuz they worry about their friends. The serious stuff, I've gone to the school and talked to someone (we've moved twice in last 10 yrs so we've done this at many very diff schools). Talked to a counsellor or a dean. I don't name kids with the problems til I hear how school handles it, but usually we get advice about how that school thinks plans to act. Things are diff sometimes in diff cities but it's too much for my kids to carry around and we're all worried about the kids so we always ask what school advises and usually school does something. Never ever had a counsellor just gone to the kid or the bullly and said "We know about *****" or "So and so told us and you need to stop". They always generally checked in with the kid cutting or being bullied, like "Hey there you seem a little down, how are you?" and all. Talked to victim and our kids have never been outed. But how is the school supposed to respond if no one tells them what's going on? This makes me nuts. |
Anonymous
At what grade levels did yours leave? |
Anonymous
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The problem, as the school adminstrator/counselor points out, is that for a host of practical reasons the counselor cannot and does not know what is going on. The kids on the other hand all do. Thus when a kid goes to see the counselor it's noticed. When questions, no matter how general or circumspect, start getting asked that's noticed as well.
Meanwhile the parents only find out after the damage has been done and are generally dealing with the immediate fall out from whatever straw was placed upon their camel's back. Counselors are good for helping in the beginning, but the adults don't know what's percolating yet, and after the acceptance phase, but at that point it's usually too late and the issues are different. There's also the slight problem that some of the potential solutions are not things that anyone who works at a school can ever recommend or suggest. A counselor can never, for ethical and liability reasons, suggest to punch back. By going to the counselor the "victim" is effectively limiting their own response options. It's a horrible conundrum for kids, parents and school officials because there are no solutions and every action creates a reaction. Acknowledging both the pros and cons is important. Counselors can be helpful but are not a solution. |
Anonymous
| This post represents our situation so well. My DD who’s in the 8th grade, her friends randomly started leaving her out too. They are having a friendsgiving tomorrow, and a secret Santa together. My DD also asked if they were mad at her, and they all said no. This is the popular crowd as well. Ugh. Middle school girls can be terrible. Just know you and your daughter aren’t alone. |