What happens to Kamala’s momentum now the DNC is over?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Independent voter. I am very upset that Harris won’t do press interviews.

Why? And let me be transparent, I don’t think anything you say will be neutral and independent.

I guess growing up in this country I thought that’s what candidates do? That if you want that job, you answer questions from the press? She says she can handle all the tough foreign leaders- ok, I sort of believe that may be true, but then why not the press?

She’s been BUSY. voting doesn’t start at the earliest in 26 days so you have plenty of time to get your interview and make up your mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She would be in a better position if she had an earlier debate scheduled.

Kennedy and Trump is all you’ll hear about until a debate.

Debate is in two weeks. And Kennedy positive buzz will last as long as JD Vance’s did. Because “a worm at my brain and I put a dead bear in Central Park” is weirder than even couch humping. Incels understand couch humping. No one understands brain worms and putting dead animals in public parks.

You actually think most Americans listen to this shit? They care about policy, what is Kamala’s policy?

Anyone
Anyone

Many Americans care about debate performance. It is a good stress test for the candidates. Last one had both candidates struggling. One withdrew and one is going to try to debate again and struggle against Harris

Hilary Clinton won her debates again Trump. So did Kerry vs. Bush. Even Obama lost his first debate to Romney. Debates matter a lot less than people think. They only matter if they're a total disaster and when the candidate already is facing questions about age as Biden was.

Democrats: Trump is shaking in his lifts thinking about debating Biden! He is so terrified he won’t show up! The orange coward will never debate Biden!

Also democrats: meh. debate, schemate. Who cares about policy/debates, anyway. 🐝🎤💃🏽

[Anonymous]

So my main question is since she is a staunch supporter of Israel, will she continue to send billions of dollars of aid to Israel for their retaliatory war against the citizens of Gaza?

I m disappointed honestly, even though it was expected. Posters here kept saying she was against the war in Gaza and would support the Palestinian citizens. Turns out it was all a lie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She would be in a better position if she had an earlier debate scheduled.

Kennedy and Trump is all you’ll hear about until a debate.

Debate is in two weeks. And Kennedy positive buzz will last as long as JD Vance’s did. Because “a worm at my brain and I put a dead bear in Central Park” is weirder than even couch humping. Incels understand couch humping. No one understands brain worms and putting dead animals in public parks.

You actually think most Americans listen to this shit? They care about policy, what is Kamala’s policy?

Anyone
Anyone

Many Americans care about debate performance. It is a good stress test for the candidates. Last one had both candidates struggling. One withdrew and one is going to try to debate again and struggle against Harris

Hilary Clinton won her debates again Trump. So did Kerry vs. Bush. Even Obama lost his first debate to Romney. Debates matter a lot less than people think. They only matter if they're a total disaster and when the candidate already is facing questions about age as Biden was.

Democrats: Trump is shaking in his lifts thinking about debating Biden! He is so terrified he won’t show up! The orange coward will never debate Biden!

Also democrats: meh. debate, schemate. Who cares about policy/debates, anyway. 🐝🎤💃🏽

Who keeps trying to wriggle out or change the terms of the upcoming debate? It ain't Harris.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s so telling that when a democrat insists Kamala had policy positions online and no one can find them, someone starts ranting about abortion/Roe v Wade.

Concern trolls keep concerning. You don't actually care about her policies or her positions. Trump literally didn't have a platform in 2020 (it was a rehash of the 2016 platform) and has shown with his current "policies" that he has no follow through on how to implement these. The funny thing, policy positions only matter to the informed and educated, which would exclude 98% of MAGA voters. Those who are educated and informed openly despise what Trump, Project 2025 and the GOP presently stands for -- rendering the publishing of any policy position by Harris moot. Most voters identify with and vibe with the candidate, not the policies. But you knew that, didn't you?

So you don’t know where to find the policies on her website either?

+1

Where is KH’s policy positions? The only information on the website is her background and multiple links to donate money.

Calm down. She's been the presumptive nominee for just over a month. Feel free to look at the policies that the Biden administration implemented or defended in the meantime. You, of course, act like she's entirely removed from her current position as VP (you know, a heartbeat away from leading the current administration).

Biden has gotten us into this mess. She has to do better than that.

Which mess?

He inherited an economic dumpster fire and now the US is the envy of the world.
Trump created a vacuum in Ukraine, and the US is supporting our allies.
Trump created a vaccum in Gaza and the US is supporting our allies.

It is really hard to understand what news the right consumes to be so ill-informed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s so telling that when a democrat insists Kamala had policy positions online and no one can find them, someone starts ranting about abortion/Roe v Wade.

Concern trolls keep concerning. You don't actually care about her policies or her positions. Trump literally didn't have a platform in 2020 (it was a rehash of the 2016 platform) and has shown with his current "policies" that he has no follow through on how to implement these. The funny thing, policy positions only matter to the informed and educated, which would exclude 98% of MAGA voters. Those who are educated and informed openly despise what Trump, Project 2025 and the GOP presently stands for -- rendering the publishing of any policy position by Harris moot. Most voters identify with and vibe with the candidate, not the policies. But you knew that, didn't you?

So you don’t know where to find the policies on her website either?

+1

Where is KH’s policy positions? The only information on the website is her background and multiple links to donate money.

Off the top of my head:
* Cap insulin costs at $35
* $2k cap on prescription costs
* Expand child tax credit to $3,600 per child, $6k credit for parents of newborns
* $25k down payment assistance for first-time homebuyers

Those are goodies for voters. These are easy. What about the hard issues?

Bribes- vote for KH, she is going to make it financially advantageous for you.

Trump is running on tax cuts (i.e., bribes) for billionaires and electric cars for Mush. He already delivered on the tax cuts last time. That's the whole GOP platform and the only thing they can implement with any sort of consistency. Are you suggesting that being the candidate that is financially advantageous for you isn't a winning strategy? Because if you are, then I have a bridge to sell you.

SEAL THE BORDER AND STOP THE MIGRANT INVASION
2
CARRY OUT THE LARGEST DEPORTATION OPERATION IN AMERICAN HISTORY
3
END INFLATION, AND MAKE AMERICA AFFORDABLE AGAIN
4
MAKE AMERICA THE DOMINANT ENERGY PRODUCER IN THE WORLD, BY FAR!
5
STOP OUTSOURCING, AND TURN THE UNITED STATES INTO A MANUFACTURING SUPERPOWER
6
LARGE TAX CUTS FOR WORKERS, AND NO TAX ON TIPS!
7
DEFEND OUR CONSTITUTION, OUR BILL OF RIGHTS, AND OUR FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOMS, INCLUDING FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREEDOM OF RELIGION, AND THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS
8
PREVENT WORLD WAR THREE, RESTORE PEACE IN EUROPE AND IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND BUILD A GREAT IRON DOME MISSILE DEFENSE SHIELD OVER OUR ENTIRE COUNTRY -- ALL MADE IN AMERICA
9
END THE WEAPONIZATION OF GOVERNMENT AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
10
STOP THE MIGRANT CRIME EPIDEMIC, DEMOLISH THE FOREIGN DRUG CARTELS, CRUSH GANG VIOLENCE, AND LOCK UP VIOLENT OFFENDERS
11
REBUILD OUR CITIES, INCLUDING WASHINGTON DC, MAKING THEM SAFE, CLEAN, AND BEAUTIFUL AGAIN.
12
STRENGTHEN AND MODERNIZE OUR MILITARY, MAKING IT, WITHOUT QUESTION, THE STRONGEST AND MOST POWERFUL IN THE WORLD
13
KEEP THE U.S. DOLLAR AS THE WORLD'S RESERVE CURRENCY
14
FIGHT FOR AND PROTECT SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE WITH NO CUTS, INCLUDING NO CHANGES TO THE RETIREMENT AGE
15
CANCEL THE ELECTRIC VEHICLE MANDATE AND CUT COSTLY AND BURDENSOME REGULATIONS
16
CUT FEDERAL FUNDING FOR ANY SCHOOL PUSHING CRITICAL RACE THEORY, RADICAL GENDER IDEOLOGY, AND OTHER INAPPROPRIATE RACIAL, SEXUAL, OR POLITICAL CONTENT ON OUR CHILDREN
17
KEEP MEN OUT OF WOMEN'S SPORTS
18
DEPORT PRO-HAMAS RADICALS AND MAKE OUR COLLEGE CAMPUSES SAFE AND PATRIOTIC AGAIN
19
SECURE OUR ELECTIONS, INCLUDING SAME DAY VOTING, VOTER IDENTIFICATION, PAPER BALLOTS, AND PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP
20
UNITE OUR COUNTRY BY BRINGING IT TO NEW AND RECORD LEVELS OF SUCCESS
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/platform

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She would be in a better position if she had an earlier debate scheduled.

Kennedy and Trump is all you’ll hear about until a debate.

what I’m hearing about is how Ukraine is calling Putin‘s bluff and he’s blinking.

Trump is old (news), Kennedy does not have the sway you think he has. Harris Will be back out on the road next week speaking to crowd in the 10,000s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She would be in a better position if she had an earlier debate scheduled.

Kennedy and Trump is all you’ll hear about until a debate.

Debate is in two weeks. And Kennedy positive buzz will last as long as JD Vance’s did. Because “a worm at my brain and I put a dead bear in Central Park” is weirder than even couch humping. Incels understand couch humping. No one understands brain worms and putting dead animals in public parks.

You actually think most Americans listen to this shit? They care about policy, what is Kamala’s policy?

Anyone
Anyone

Many Americans care about debate performance. It is a good stress test for the candidates. Last one had both candidates struggling. One withdrew and one is going to try to debate again and struggle against Harris

Hilary Clinton won her debates again Trump. So did Kerry vs. Bush. Even Obama lost his first debate to Romney. Debates matter a lot less than people think. They only matter if they're a total disaster and when the candidate already is facing questions about age as Biden was.

Democrats: Trump is shaking in his lifts thinking about debating Biden! He is so terrified he won’t show up! The orange coward will never debate Biden!

Also democrats: meh. debate, schemate. Who cares about policy/debates, anyway. 🐝🎤💃🏽

Who keeps trying to wriggle out or change the terms of the upcoming debate? It ain't Harris.

Change/wriggle out? Trump proposed more debates, which Harris refused to do.

Now dems are saying debates don’t even matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She would be in a better position if she had an earlier debate scheduled.

Kennedy and Trump is all you’ll hear about until a debate.

Debate is in two weeks. And Kennedy positive buzz will last as long as JD Vance’s did. Because “a worm at my brain and I put a dead bear in Central Park” is weirder than even couch humping. Incels understand couch humping. No one understands brain worms and putting dead animals in public parks.

You actually think most Americans listen to this shit? They care about policy, what is Kamala’s policy?

Anyone
Anyone

Many Americans care about debate performance. It is a good stress test for the candidates. Last one had both candidates struggling. One withdrew and one is going to try to debate again and struggle against Harris

Hilary Clinton won her debates again Trump. So did Kerry vs. Bush. Even Obama lost his first debate to Romney. Debates matter a lot less than people think. They only matter if they're a total disaster and when the candidate already is facing questions about age as Biden was.

Democrats: Trump is shaking in his lifts thinking about debating Biden! He is so terrified he won’t show up! The orange coward will never debate Biden!

Also democrats: meh. debate, schemate. Who cares about policy/debates, anyway. 🐝🎤💃🏽

Who keeps trying to wriggle out or change the terms of the upcoming debate? It ain't Harris.

Change/wriggle out? Trump proposed more debates, which Harris refused to do.

Now dems are saying debates don’t even matter.

He’s being an utter foot stamping child in trying to control and change the date, location, time. He’ll only do it if he feels like it’s totally on his terms. He’s not leadership material, has no concept of others, compromise - ETHICS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She would be in a better position if she had an earlier debate scheduled.

Kennedy and Trump is all you’ll hear about until a debate.

Debate is in two weeks. And Kennedy positive buzz will last as long as JD Vance’s did. Because “a worm at my brain and I put a dead bear in Central Park” is weirder than even couch humping. Incels understand couch humping. No one understands brain worms and putting dead animals in public parks.

You actually think most Americans listen to this shit? They care about policy, what is Kamala’s policy?

Anyone
Anyone

Many Americans care about debate performance. It is a good stress test for the candidates. Last one had both candidates struggling. One withdrew and one is going to try to debate again and struggle against Harris

Hilary Clinton won her debates again Trump. So did Kerry vs. Bush. Even Obama lost his first debate to Romney. Debates matter a lot less than people think. They only matter if they're a total disaster and when the candidate already is facing questions about age as Biden was.

Democrats: Trump is shaking in his lifts thinking about debating Biden! He is so terrified he won’t show up! The orange coward will never debate Biden!

Also democrats: meh. debate, schemate. Who cares about policy/debates, anyway. 🐝🎤💃🏽

Who keeps trying to wriggle out or change the terms of the upcoming debate? It ain't Harris.

Change/wriggle out? Trump proposed more debates, which Harris refused to do.

Now dems are saying debates don’t even matter.

Debates can matter a lot (see Biden v Trump 2024 and JFK v Nixon). But also, the consensus debate winner doesn’t always win the election. See the examples above.

I think this debate matters because of the co pressed time frame, and hope to see at least one more in October. Preferably moderated by the AP/NPR. With real time fact checking (by the AP) and mic cuts for over time. I think Harris wins them in a landslide.

BUT, I won’t get comfortable and say she’s won the election when she trounces Trump. The electorate has the memory of a gnat and lots of other factors are also important.

I know MAGA hates nuance. But reality is— debates matter. But they are only part of winning the Presidency.

TBH, policy matters much less since 2016. Trump is about noise and chaos and drowns out more boring substantive discussion. Trump is 100% running on vibes. Just angry negative ones. Until you neutralize that, your policy gets lost in the chaos.

[Anonymous]

Trump is running on tax cuts (i.e., bribes) for billionaires and electric cars for Mush. He already delivered on the tax cuts last time. That's the whole GOP platform and the only thing they can implement with any sort of consistency. Are you suggesting that being the candidate that is financially advantageous for you isn't a winning strategy? Because if you are, then I have a bridge to sell you.

SEAL THE BORDER AND STOP THE MIGRANT INVASION
2 - Explain this and how he plans to implement this without disrupting industry and causing massive inflation.
CARRY OUT THE LARGEST DEPORTATION OPERATION IN AMERICAN HISTORY
3 - This will be very expensive and massively inflationary.
END INFLATION, AND MAKE AMERICA AFFORDABLE AGAIN
4 - How? This is just slogan or sound bite. What policy, executive action or legislation does he plan to implement?
MAKE AMERICA THE DOMINANT ENERGY PRODUCER IN THE WORLD, BY FAR!
5 - It already is producing energy at record levels.
STOP OUTSOURCING, AND TURN THE UNITED STATES INTO A MANUFACTURING SUPERPOWER
6 - Biden already is doing this. What policy, executive action or legislation does he plan to implement? More tariffs that require bailouts of the ag sector?
LARGE TAX CUTS FOR WORKERS, AND NO TAX ON TIPS!
7 - Harris agrees with this but not on millionaire types.
DEFEND OUR CONSTITUTION, OUR BILL OF RIGHTS, AND OUR FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOMS, INCLUDING FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREEDOM OF RELIGION, AND THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS
8 - Hahahaha. This guy wants to be dictator day one and implement 2025. He literally tried to overthrow the government. He just this week said criticizing HIS Supreme Court picks should be illegal. Please help use understand what rights he wants to "defend" other than no restrictions on gun control.
PREVENT WORLD WAR THREE, RESTORE PEACE IN EUROPE AND IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND BUILD A GREAT IRON DOME MISSILE DEFENSE SHIELD OVER OUR ENTIRE COUNTRY -- ALL MADE IN AMERICA
9 - Doesn't he want the Israelis to finish the job and give Ukraine to Putin? I guess that's one way to ensure peace.
END THE WEAPONIZATION OF GOVERNMENT AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
10 - How? This is just slogan or sound bite. What policy, executive action or legislation does he plan to implement? Other than retribution for going after judges and prosecutors that have pursued legitimate cases against him, what does this mean

Aside from massive deportations, I don't see any "policies" here. Just soundbites. However, please back this up with actual policy proposals, executive action and legislation so I can do my homework.
STOP THE MIGRANT CRIME EPIDEMIC, DEMOLISH THE FOREIGN DRUG CARTELS, CRUSH GANG VIOLENCE, AND LOCK UP VIOLENT OFFENDERS
11
REBUILD OUR CITIES, INCLUDING WASHINGTON DC, MAKING THEM SAFE, CLEAN, AND BEAUTIFUL AGAIN.
12
STRENGTHEN AND MODERNIZE OUR MILITARY, MAKING IT, WITHOUT QUESTION, THE STRONGEST AND MOST POWERFUL IN THE WORLD
13
KEEP THE U.S. DOLLAR AS THE WORLD'S RESERVE CURRENCY
14
FIGHT FOR AND PROTECT SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE WITH NO CUTS, INCLUDING NO CHANGES TO THE RETIREMENT AGE
15
CANCEL THE ELECTRIC VEHICLE MANDATE AND CUT COSTLY AND BURDENSOME REGULATIONS
16
CUT FEDERAL FUNDING FOR ANY SCHOOL PUSHING CRITICAL RACE THEORY, RADICAL GENDER IDEOLOGY, AND OTHER INAPPROPRIATE RACIAL, SEXUAL, OR POLITICAL CONTENT ON OUR CHILDREN
17
KEEP MEN OUT OF WOMEN'S SPORTS
18
DEPORT PRO-HAMAS RADICALS AND MAKE OUR COLLEGE CAMPUSES SAFE AND PATRIOTIC AGAIN
19
SECURE OUR ELECTIONS, INCLUDING SAME DAY VOTING, VOTER IDENTIFICATION, PAPER BALLOTS, AND PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP
20
UNITE OUR COUNTRY BY BRINGING IT TO NEW AND RECORD LEVELS OF SUCCESS
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/platform

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Amazing people want to stimulate demand for homes when demand isn’t even close to the problem. The problem is supply. And they think a good solution is granting people more money to push prices higher. I live in an insane asylum.

Regarding housing supply:

“Kamala Harris unveiled a housing plan that includes building three million homes in four years. Her plan includes tax incentives for builders to construct small and affordable homes. Harris' supply-boosting policies could get the most traction among Republicans, but it'll be an uphill battle.“

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She would be in a better position if she had an earlier debate scheduled.

Kennedy and Trump is all you’ll hear about until a debate.

Debate is in two weeks. And Kennedy positive buzz will last as long as JD Vance’s did. Because “a worm at my brain and I put a dead bear in Central Park” is weirder than even couch humping. Incels understand couch humping. No one understands brain worms and putting dead animals in public parks.

You actually think most Americans listen to this shit? They care about policy, what is Kamala’s policy?

Anyone
Anyone

Many Americans care about debate performance. It is a good stress test for the candidates. Last one had both candidates struggling. One withdrew and one is going to try to debate again and struggle against Harris

Hilary Clinton won her debates again Trump. So did Kerry vs. Bush. Even Obama lost his first debate to Romney. Debates matter a lot less than people think. They only matter if they're a total disaster and when the candidate already is facing questions about age as Biden was.

Democrats: Trump is shaking in his lifts thinking about debating Biden! He is so terrified he won’t show up! The orange coward will never debate Biden!

Also democrats: meh. debate, schemate. Who cares about policy/debates, anyway. 🐝🎤💃🏽

Who keeps trying to wriggle out or change the terms of the upcoming debate? It ain't Harris.

Change/wriggle out? Trump proposed more debates, which Harris refused to do.

Now dems are saying debates don’t even matter.

Debates can matter a lot (see Biden v Trump 2024 and JFK v Nixon). But also, the consensus debate winner doesn’t always win the election. See the examples above.

I think this debate matters because of the co pressed time frame, and hope to see at least one more in October. Preferably moderated by the AP/NPR. With real time fact checking (by the AP) and mic cuts for over time. I think Harris wins them in a landslide.

BUT, I won’t get comfortable and say she’s won the election when she trounces Trump. The electorate has the memory of a gnat and lots of other factors are also important.

I know MAGA hates nuance. But reality is— debates matter. But they are only part of winning the Presidency.

TBH, policy matters much less since 2016. Trump is about noise and chaos and drowns out more boring substantive discussion. Trump is 100% running on vibes. Just angry negative ones. Until you neutralize that, your policy gets lost in the chaos.

Debates don't matter except to demonstrate "competence". The debates you cited had nothing to do with policy but presentation. You're not going to convince any MAGAs to change their vote based on a good debate by Harris. It's telling that aside from Biden-Trump 2024, you had to go back to JFK/Nixon and that was about Nixon sweating on tv, not his policies.

[Anonymous]

What happens is it pushes her higher and higher until November 5 when we elect her Madam President! Woot woot!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She would be in a better position if she had an earlier debate scheduled.

Kennedy and Trump is all you’ll hear about until a debate.

Debate is in two weeks. And Kennedy positive buzz will last as long as JD Vance’s did. Because “a worm at my brain and I put a dead bear in Central Park” is weirder than even couch humping. Incels understand couch humping. No one understands brain worms and putting dead animals in public parks.

You actually think most Americans listen to this shit? They care about policy, what is Kamala’s policy?

Anyone
Anyone

Many Americans care about debate performance. It is a good stress test for the candidates. Last one had both candidates struggling. One withdrew and one is going to try to debate again and struggle against Harris

Hilary Clinton won her debates again Trump. So did Kerry vs. Bush. Even Obama lost his first debate to Romney. Debates matter a lot less than people think. They only matter if they're a total disaster and when the candidate already is facing questions about age as Biden was.

Democrats: Trump is shaking in his lifts thinking about debating Biden! He is so terrified he won’t show up! The orange coward will never debate Biden!

Also democrats: meh. debate, schemate. Who cares about policy/debates, anyway. 🐝🎤💃🏽

Who keeps trying to wriggle out or change the terms of the upcoming debate? It ain't Harris.

Change/wriggle out? Trump proposed more debates, which Harris refused to do.

Now dems are saying debates don’t even matter.

He’s being an utter foot stamping child in trying to control and change the date, location, time. He’ll only do it if he feels like it’s totally on his terms. He’s not leadership material, has no concept of others, compromise - ETHICS.

Umm... didn't Trump give Biden exactly the types of debates that Biden wanted - and still beat him?

Also, if Kamala isn't afraid of Trump, why not do a FOX debate? That would seem to be exactly what Trump gave Biden - choice of channel, format, etc....