Banned books at Jackson-Reed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:JR did the right thing. You all are freaking out about nothing. And the title of this thread is deliberately misleading which is disgusting to me. I agree that JR can handle sensitive discussions between students and teachers but parents often suck and cause problems where none exist

The parents aren’t freaking out. The teachers freaked out unnecessarily and therein lies the problem and implicit bias here. What parents would have freaked out or caused a fuss if they went ahead with the lesson on time about the Holocaust as planned? What would the objection have been?No one has yet to tell me what the Holocaust has to do with the current situation in Gaza. Go ahead - I’ll wait.

Yes - the parents are freaking out and they are the ones causing the problems here. Coupled with the fact that DCPS Central refuses to give any guidance which the school wants so they know they are covered. I put this one squarely on parents who don't want their kids to be upset. I am totally against antisemitism but hard discussions can happen. Look at our political divisions - no one can actually listen to the other side and consider their points.

There. Are. Not. Two. Sides. To. The. Holocaust. Why is this so hard for so many of you?

No one has suggested there are two sides to the Holocaust. And do was has equated Israel's actions to the Nazis -- that's a straw man argument.

But there are a range of views on the specific issues in the current Israel/Hamas conflict.

For example, a PP earlier in the thread has said the "truth" is that Israel "is not deliberately targeting civilians." Yet people do have different views on what level of collateral damage is acceptable when responding to terrorism -- where is the line between unavoidable and negligent?

There are not clear answers to that, and if the idea is that Israel's government and policies are above question due to past history, then a community-wide conversation is not possible.

Ok …. but the “postponed”
books are about the Holocaust. Not Israel. Not Gaza.

It’s starting to dawn on me that people actually believe that deploring the Holocaust is the same thing as Zionism.

This was discussed above. It's obtuse to think the Holocaust can be discussed at this time without also discussing current events.

I'm fine with both getting discussed. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the same people who are offended by any postponement of the Holocaust books would also be upset with hearing diverse perspectives about the current conflict.

The only way you can equate the Holocaust with the current conflict is by saying, "well, they both involve Jews." The subtext here is that the rightness or wrongness of the Holocaust changes based on current events. The other subtext here is that maybe the Jews had it coming. Or it was ok because look what the Jews are doing now.

No one has "equated" the events. That's a distorted interpretation. Posters have said they are *related*, which they obviously are.

The Holocaust was carried out on a scale, with a deliberation, and for 'reasoning' that is hard to fathom. Nothing about today's events change that.

And the subtexts you proffer are not ones that anyone thinks. No one except wackos thinks the Holocaust was "ok."

There are issues here -- the idea that violence begets violence, that conflicts can last for millenia, and that religion and culture bind people and divide people, etc etc.

The key historical echo that arises at the immediate time is the morality of killing innocent civilians.

There is no way to discuss the Holocaust and simultaneously see headlines about Israel--created in the aftermath of the Holocaust--using 2,000 lb bombs and "Israel struck some areas it directed civilians to in Gaza, CNN analysis shows" and not have that question arise.

The answer for many may be that Israel has no choice and is justified, but the there is no way to block brains from asking the question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:JR did the right thing. You all are freaking out about nothing. And the title of this thread is deliberately misleading which is disgusting to me. I agree that JR can handle sensitive discussions between students and teachers but parents often suck and cause problems where none exist

The parents aren’t freaking out. The teachers freaked out unnecessarily and therein lies the problem and implicit bias here. What parents would have freaked out or caused a fuss if they went ahead with the lesson on time about the Holocaust as planned? What would the objection have been?No one has yet to tell me what the Holocaust has to do with the current situation in Gaza. Go ahead - I’ll wait.

Yes - the parents are freaking out and they are the ones causing the problems here. Coupled with the fact that DCPS Central refuses to give any guidance which the school wants so they know they are covered. I put this one squarely on parents who don't want their kids to be upset. I am totally against antisemitism but hard discussions can happen. Look at our political divisions - no one can actually listen to the other side and consider their points.

There. Are. Not. Two. Sides. To. The. Holocaust. Why is this so hard for so many of you?

No one has suggested there are two sides to the Holocaust. And do was has equated Israel's actions to the Nazis -- that's a straw man argument.

But there are a range of views on the specific issues in the current Israel/Hamas conflict.

For example, a PP earlier in the thread has said the "truth" is that Israel "is not deliberately targeting civilians." Yet people do have different views on what level of collateral damage is acceptable when responding to terrorism -- where is the line between unavoidable and negligent?

There are not clear answers to that, and if the idea is that Israel's government and policies are above question due to past history, then a community-wide conversation is not possible.

Ok …. but the “postponed”
books are about the Holocaust. Not Israel. Not Gaza.

It’s starting to dawn on me that people actually believe that deploring the Holocaust is the same thing as Zionism.

This was discussed above. It's obtuse to think the Holocaust can be discussed at this time without also discussing current events.

I'm fine with both getting discussed. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the same people who are offended by any postponement of the Holocaust books would also be upset with hearing diverse perspectives about the current conflict.

The only way you can equate the Holocaust with the current conflict is by saying, "well, they both involve Jews." The subtext here is that the rightness or wrongness of the Holocaust changes based on current events. The other subtext here is that maybe the Jews had it coming. Or it was ok because look what the Jews are doing now.

No one has "equated" the events. That's a distorted interpretation. Posters have said they are *related*, which they obviously are.

The Holocaust was carried out on a scale, with a deliberation, and for 'reasoning' that is hard to fathom. Nothing about today's events change that.

And the subtexts you proffer are not ones that anyone thinks. No one except wackos thinks the Holocaust was "ok."

There are issues here -- the idea that violence begets violence, that conflicts can last for millenia, and that religion and culture bind people and divide people, etc etc.

The key historical echo that arises at the immediate time is the morality of killing innocent civilians.

There is no way to discuss the Holocaust and simultaneously see headlines about Israel--created in the aftermath of the Holocaust--using 2,000 lb bombs and "Israel struck some areas it directed civilians to in Gaza, CNN analysis shows" and not have that question arise.

The answer for many may be that Israel has no choice and is justified, but the there is no way to block brains from asking the question.

You actually are equating the events but dressing it up as “historical echo”. Congratulations. You are a part of the problem. Yes. There IS a way to discuss the holocaust without discussing Gaza. But if there is not, as you say, we may as well discuss the nuclear bomb dropped by the US on Japanese civilians and the bombs dropped by the allies on German civilians as well when discussing the Holocaust. Or maybe we should discuss how Hamas started this way and uses their civilians as Human shields?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:JR did the right thing. You all are freaking out about nothing. And the title of this thread is deliberately misleading which is disgusting to me. I agree that JR can handle sensitive discussions between students and teachers but parents often suck and cause problems where none exist

The parents aren’t freaking out. The teachers freaked out unnecessarily and therein lies the problem and implicit bias here. What parents would have freaked out or caused a fuss if they went ahead with the lesson on time about the Holocaust as planned? What would the objection have been?No one has yet to tell me what the Holocaust has to do with the current situation in Gaza. Go ahead - I’ll wait.

Yes - the parents are freaking out and they are the ones causing the problems here. Coupled with the fact that DCPS Central refuses to give any guidance which the school wants so they know they are covered. I put this one squarely on parents who don't want their kids to be upset. I am totally against antisemitism but hard discussions can happen. Look at our political divisions - no one can actually listen to the other side and consider their points.

There. Are. Not. Two. Sides. To. The. Holocaust. Why is this so hard for so many of you?

No one has suggested there are two sides to the Holocaust. And do was has equated Israel's actions to the Nazis -- that's a straw man argument.

But there are a range of views on the specific issues in the current Israel/Hamas conflict.

For example, a PP earlier in the thread has said the "truth" is that Israel "is not deliberately targeting civilians." Yet people do have different views on what level of collateral damage is acceptable when responding to terrorism -- where is the line between unavoidable and negligent?

There are not clear answers to that, and if the idea is that Israel's government and policies are above question due to past history, then a community-wide conversation is not possible.

Ok …. but the “postponed”
books are about the Holocaust. Not Israel. Not Gaza.

It’s starting to dawn on me that people actually believe that deploring the Holocaust is the same thing as Zionism.

This was discussed above. It's obtuse to think the Holocaust can be discussed at this time without also discussing current events.

I'm fine with both getting discussed. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the same people who are offended by any postponement of the Holocaust books would also be upset with hearing diverse perspectives about the current conflict.

The only way you can equate the Holocaust with the current conflict is by saying, "well, they both involve Jews." The subtext here is that the rightness or wrongness of the Holocaust changes based on current events. The other subtext here is that maybe the Jews had it coming. Or it was ok because look what the Jews are doing now.

No one has "equated" the events. That's a distorted interpretation. Posters have said they are *related*, which they obviously are.

The Holocaust was carried out on a scale, with a deliberation, and for 'reasoning' that is hard to fathom. Nothing about today's events change that.

And the subtexts you proffer are not ones that anyone thinks. No one except wackos thinks the Holocaust was "ok."

There are issues here -- the idea that violence begets violence, that conflicts can last for millenia, and that religion and culture bind people and divide people, etc etc.

The key historical echo that arises at the immediate time is the morality of killing innocent civilians.

There is no way to discuss the Holocaust and simultaneously see headlines about Israel--created in the aftermath of the Holocaust--using 2,000 lb bombs and "Israel struck some areas it directed civilians to in Gaza, CNN analysis shows" and not have that question arise.

The answer for many may be that Israel has no choice and is justified, but the there is no way to block brains from asking the question.

You actually are equating the events but dressing it up as “historical echo”. Congratulations. You are a part of the problem. Yes. There IS a way to discuss the holocaust without discussing Gaza. But if there is not, as you say, we may as well discuss the nuclear bomb dropped by the US on Japanese civilians and the bombs dropped by the allies on German civilians as well when discussing the Holocaust. Or maybe we should discuss how Hamas started this way and uses their civilians as Human shields?

Those topics are definitely merit discussion when thinking about the ethics of war!

Frankly, comparing the damage of Israel/Hamas war to the deaths in the Holocaust emphasizes the unparalleled horror of the Holocaust -- millions of deaths vs 20,000; provoked vs just demented, etc.

But, again, if you want the Holocaust discussed, current events will come up whether in-class or out. Asking for an isolated discussion of the Holocaust is not reasonable.

[Anonymous]

make that "not realistic". Reasonableness is a different matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.blacklivesmatteratschool.com/teachingpalestine.html

“BLM@School wants to be clear in our recognition that this unfolding loss of Palestinian and Israeli lives is the direct result of decades of Israeli settler colonialism, land dispossession, occupation, blockade, apartheid, and attempted genocide of millions of Palestinians. Palestinians are reminding us that decolonization is not a metaphor or abstraction, but requires real, daily struggle.”

Does dcps actually use this group as guidance?

Yes.

https://www.dcareaeducators4socialjustice.org/news/dcps-endorsed-black-lives-matter-at-school-week-of-action

[Anonymous]

As a society we need to stop letting the dumbest among us become public school administrators.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a society we need to stop letting the dumbest among us become public school administrators.

We also need to stop plastering teachers on the national news and firing them for thoughtcrimes.

[Anonymous]

Can we take a step back for a second. I know JR swapped the timing of the reading so they could spend more time preparing. But do we know it as fact that the reason they are doing that is so that they can push counter points that are pro Palestinian? If not stated by JR, why are we jumping to that conclusion?

When I first heard of the pause my thought was they were preparing teachers to manage better any student discussion that may be anti semitic and have the tools to correct that thinking. That, to me, is not nefarious but helpful. Could that not equally be the reason? Or are you saying that trying to better prepare oneself to help your student avoid thoughts and acts of antisemitism is antisemitic?

I’m so confused how we got to this place in the dialogue. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Even if the administrators are well-meaning and want to protect teachers, prepare their instruction and not push a pro-Palestinian agenda, it’s still an awful move. It’s offensive and yet again isolates the Jewish narrative as expendable.

To not understand the optics of removing Holocaust literature from the curricula shows they operate in an echo chamber that ignores Jewish suffering and doesn’t care about antisemitic trends. I’ve always noticed but never particularly cared about the large Christmas trees displayed at dcps schools. But it’s clearly part of a larger problem.

[Anonymous]

The best are the “allies” on here telling Jews that our real enemies are the right wing nuts when most of us find the groupthink dems much more dangerous to our children’s future and the safety of Jews worldwide.

Would you dare tell Black Americans where to focus *their* criticism and activism? Lecture them on who to trust?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even if the administrators are well-meaning and want to protect teachers, prepare their instruction and not push a pro-Palestinian agenda, it’s still an awful move. It’s offensive and yet again isolates the Jewish narrative as expendable.

To not understand the optics of removing Holocaust literature from the curricula shows they operate in an echo chamber that ignores Jewish suffering and doesn’t care about antisemitic trends. I’ve always noticed but never particularly cared about the large Christmas trees displayed at dcps schools. But it’s clearly part of a larger problem.

If you are determined to feel insulted, no matter what, then go ahead I guess. No one can stop you from freaking out. For the last time, they are not removing the content, just postponing it. I highly recommend you listen to the Ezra Klein podcast. He has a thoughtful deliberate approach and well reasoned analysis and avoids jumping to hysterical conclusions.

[Anonymous]

Dude I do not want DCPS teachers to stumble into this. It is NOT every day that something you teach has huge moral relevance. I want teachers who can get the kids to see that an attempted genocide and a response to a terrorist attack are not the same, and are armed to leave good distinctions in kids’ minds even if there are cheap comparisons to be made.

Yeah war begets war, got it. Was pacifism or international intervention going to save European Jewish people? Would it save Israel? If self defense is justifiable and attacks on people for their nationhood or identity are wrong, what are justifiable responses? What are correct lessons to learn from people othering and killing their neighbors?

These are not bullshit. It doesn’t take much to realize teachers might need to be prepared.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:JR did the right thing. You all are freaking out about nothing. And the title of this thread is deliberately misleading which is disgusting to me. I agree that JR can handle sensitive discussions between students and teachers but parents often suck and cause problems where none exist

The parents aren’t freaking out. The teachers freaked out unnecessarily and therein lies the problem and implicit bias here. What parents would have freaked out or caused a fuss if they went ahead with the lesson on time about the Holocaust as planned? What would the objection have been?No one has yet to tell me what the Holocaust has to do with the current situation in Gaza. Go ahead - I’ll wait.

Yes - the parents are freaking out and they are the ones causing the problems here. Coupled with the fact that DCPS Central refuses to give any guidance which the school wants so they know they are covered. I put this one squarely on parents who don't want their kids to be upset. I am totally against antisemitism but hard discussions can happen. Look at our political divisions - no one can actually listen to the other side and consider their points.

There. Are. Not. Two. Sides. To. The. Holocaust. Why is this so hard for so many of you?

No one has suggested there are two sides to the Holocaust. And do was has equated Israel's actions to the Nazis -- that's a straw man argument.

But there are a range of views on the specific issues in the current Israel/Hamas conflict.

For example, a PP earlier in the thread has said the "truth" is that Israel "is not deliberately targeting civilians." Yet people do have different views on what level of collateral damage is acceptable when responding to terrorism -- where is the line between unavoidable and negligent?

There are not clear answers to that, and if the idea is that Israel's government and policies are above question due to past history, then a community-wide conversation is not possible.

Ok …. but the “postponed”
books are about the Holocaust. Not Israel. Not Gaza.

It’s starting to dawn on me that people actually believe that deploring the Holocaust is the same thing as Zionism.

This was discussed above. It's obtuse to think the Holocaust can be discussed at this time without also discussing current events.

I'm fine with both getting discussed. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the same people who are offended by any postponement of the Holocaust books would also be upset with hearing diverse perspectives about the current conflict.

The only way you can equate the Holocaust with the current conflict is by saying, "well, they both involve Jews." The subtext here is that the rightness or wrongness of the Holocaust changes based on current events. The other subtext here is that maybe the Jews had it coming. Or it was ok because look what the Jews are doing now.

No one has "equated" the events. That's a distorted interpretation. Posters have said they are *related*, which they obviously are.

The Holocaust was carried out on a scale, with a deliberation, and for 'reasoning' that is hard to fathom. Nothing about today's events change that.

And the subtexts you proffer are not ones that anyone thinks. No one except wackos thinks the Holocaust was "ok."

There are issues here -- the idea that violence begets violence, that conflicts can last for millenia, and that religion and culture bind people and divide people, etc etc.

The key historical echo that arises at the immediate time is the morality of killing innocent civilians.

There is no way to discuss the Holocaust and simultaneously see headlines about Israel--created in the aftermath of the Holocaust--using 2,000 lb bombs and "Israel struck some areas it directed civilians to in Gaza, CNN analysis shows" and not have that question arise.

The answer for many may be that Israel has no choice and is justified, but the there is no way to block brains from asking the question.

Yes there is a way to discuss the Holocaust full stop. Just like we can discuss chattel slavery in the US without discussing slavery in Africa. Moreover I don’t think anyone was saying that there needs to be a moritorium on where the discussion goes of Maus and Night - including perhaps the antisemitism currently rampant in the Middle East. It’s the implication that the Holocaust cannot be discussed “due to current events” that is so disturbing to some of us. The Holocaust is NOT Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:JR did the right thing. You all are freaking out about nothing. And the title of this thread is deliberately misleading which is disgusting to me. I agree that JR can handle sensitive discussions between students and teachers but parents often suck and cause problems where none exist

The parents aren’t freaking out. The teachers freaked out unnecessarily and therein lies the problem and implicit bias here. What parents would have freaked out or caused a fuss if they went ahead with the lesson on time about the Holocaust as planned? What would the objection have been?No one has yet to tell me what the Holocaust has to do with the current situation in Gaza. Go ahead - I’ll wait.

Yes - the parents are freaking out and they are the ones causing the problems here. Coupled with the fact that DCPS Central refuses to give any guidance which the school wants so they know they are covered. I put this one squarely on parents who don't want their kids to be upset. I am totally against antisemitism but hard discussions can happen. Look at our political divisions - no one can actually listen to the other side and consider their points.

There. Are. Not. Two. Sides. To. The. Holocaust. Why is this so hard for so many of you?

No one has suggested there are two sides to the Holocaust. And do was has equated Israel's actions to the Nazis -- that's a straw man argument.

But there are a range of views on the specific issues in the current Israel/Hamas conflict.

For example, a PP earlier in the thread has said the "truth" is that Israel "is not deliberately targeting civilians." Yet people do have different views on what level of collateral damage is acceptable when responding to terrorism -- where is the line between unavoidable and negligent?

There are not clear answers to that, and if the idea is that Israel's government and policies are above question due to past history, then a community-wide conversation is not possible.

Ok …. but the “postponed”
books are about the Holocaust. Not Israel. Not Gaza.

It’s starting to dawn on me that people actually believe that deploring the Holocaust is the same thing as Zionism.

This was discussed above. It's obtuse to think the Holocaust can be discussed at this time without also discussing current events.

I'm fine with both getting discussed. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the same people who are offended by any postponement of the Holocaust books would also be upset with hearing diverse perspectives about the current conflict.

The only way you can equate the Holocaust with the current conflict is by saying, "well, they both involve Jews." The subtext here is that the rightness or wrongness of the Holocaust changes based on current events. The other subtext here is that maybe the Jews had it coming. Or it was ok because look what the Jews are doing now.

No one has "equated" the events. That's a distorted interpretation. Posters have said they are *related*, which they obviously are.

The Holocaust was carried out on a scale, with a deliberation, and for 'reasoning' that is hard to fathom. Nothing about today's events change that.

And the subtexts you proffer are not ones that anyone thinks. No one except wackos thinks the Holocaust was "ok."

There are issues here -- the idea that violence begets violence, that conflicts can last for millenia, and that religion and culture bind people and divide people, etc etc.

The key historical echo that arises at the immediate time is the morality of killing innocent civilians.

There is no way to discuss the Holocaust and simultaneously see headlines about Israel--created in the aftermath of the Holocaust--using 2,000 lb bombs and "Israel struck some areas it directed civilians to in Gaza, CNN analysis shows" and not have that question arise.

The answer for many may be that Israel has no choice and is justified, but the there is no way to block brains from asking the question.

You actually are equating the events but dressing it up as “historical echo”. Congratulations. You are a part of the problem. Yes. There IS a way to discuss the holocaust without discussing Gaza. But if there is not, as you say, we may as well discuss the nuclear bomb dropped by the US on Japanese civilians and the bombs dropped by the allies on German civilians as well when discussing the Holocaust. Or maybe we should discuss how Hamas started this way and uses their civilians as Human shields?

Those topics are definitely merit discussion when thinking about the ethics of war!

Frankly, comparing the damage of Israel/Hamas war to the deaths in the Holocaust emphasizes the unparalleled horror of the Holocaust -- millions of deaths vs 20,000; provoked vs just demented, etc.

But, again, if you want the Holocaust discussed, current events will come up whether in-class or out. Asking for an isolated discussion of the Holocaust is not reasonable.

And nobody asked for an “isolated discussion”!! Stop distorting what happened. The extraordinary event is thay the Holocaust discussion was cancelled until further notice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if the administrators are well-meaning and want to protect teachers, prepare their instruction and not push a pro-Palestinian agenda, it’s still an awful move. It’s offensive and yet again isolates the Jewish narrative as expendable.

To not understand the optics of removing Holocaust literature from the curricula shows they operate in an echo chamber that ignores Jewish suffering and doesn’t care about antisemitic trends. I’ve always noticed but never particularly cared about the large Christmas trees displayed at dcps schools. But it’s clearly part of a larger problem.

If you are determined to feel insulted, no matter what, then go ahead I guess. No one can stop you from freaking out. For the last time, they are not removing the content, just postponing it. I highly recommend you listen to the Ezra Klein podcast. He has a thoughtful deliberate approach and well reasoned analysis and avoids jumping to hysterical conclusions.

Principal Brown could not even articulate what the actual concern was. As far as anyone knows he’s going to include “resources” that equate Zionism with Nazi-ism for “context.” The fact he, he and the English teachers are pathetic cowards who cannot figure out an appropriate way to teach Maus, including handling any questions that may come up about Israel. This seriously comes close to me taking JR off my list for my child. My child’s T1 middle school can handle teaching very difficult material - not sure why the flagship DCPS HS cannot. Come on. Pathetic!