Gen Z has been warped by social media and victimhood culture: Jonathan haidt

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't take this thread seriously. My 13 yo is Gen Z and his only concern right now is really just sports and seeing his friends. You don't really know what this Gen will be like until another decade in.

It's like predicting how the 1962 Boomers would be based on the 1948 Boomers.

Agree we don’t know what awaits our younger Gen Z kids, but even at 13 there is a lot of peer pressure to use social media. It’s not good.

lol how old are you? Kids age 7 are on social media, its basically the way they all communicate, you need to get with the times.

NP. Dear God, no, you don’t. You don’t have to let your 13 year old use social media and you’re sure as hell shouldn’t let a 7 year old anywhere near it.

Agree. And so do the tech giants who brought us all of this:


Steve Jobs did not let his children play with the iPad he helped create.

Interviews with Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Sundar Pichai, and other tech power players reveal that Silicon Valley parents are strict about technology use.

A book suggests the signs may have been clear years ago that smartphone use should be regulated.

Here is one of innumerable links on this.


https://www.businessinsider.com/screen-time-limits-bill-gates-steve-jobs-red-flag-2017-10?amp

Steve jobs died 12 years a go. Bill gates and Sundar are old as shit they don't have kids of tween or younger so they are completely out of touch and in a different parenting decade. You need to get with 2015 times

DP. So what age do think it’s appropriate for kids to be on social media? Do you think there should be any limits to their internet access?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't take this thread seriously. My 13 yo is Gen Z and his only concern right now is really just sports and seeing his friends. You don't really know what this Gen will be like until another decade in.

It's like predicting how the 1962 Boomers would be based on the 1948 Boomers.

Agree we don’t know what awaits our younger Gen Z kids, but even at 13 there is a lot of peer pressure to use social media. It’s not good.

lol how old are you? Kids age 7 are on social media, its basically the way they all communicate, you need to get with the times.

NP. Dear God, no, you don’t. You don’t have to let your 13 year old use social media and you’re sure as hell shouldn’t let a 7 year old anywhere near it.

Agree. And so do the tech giants who brought us all of this:


Steve Jobs did not let his children play with the iPad he helped create.

Interviews with Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Sundar Pichai, and other tech power players reveal that Silicon Valley parents are strict about technology use.

A book suggests the signs may have been clear years ago that smartphone use should be regulated.

Here is one of innumerable links on this.


https://www.businessinsider.com/screen-time-limits-bill-gates-steve-jobs-red-flag-2017-10?amp

Steve jobs died 12 years a go. Bill gates and Sundar are old as shit they don't have kids of tween or younger so they are completely out of touch and in a different parenting decade. You need to get with 2015 times

DP. So what age do think it’s appropriate for kids to be on social media? Do you think there should be any limits to their internet access?

NP
Parents should decide. But "getting with the times" is not a good enough reason to let your kids use social media.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work in academia - although at a large school with tens of thousands of students.

The effects of social media that I see are:
Their views are based on quick sound bites and headlines. Most are very poorly informed about the positions they hold or the issues they are arguing for or against. They often aren't even aware of the fuller context of the quip or headline or clip they saw that shaped their view. There is a lot of group think as most who hold similar views access the same social media content and due to algorythms, they aren't exposed to views outside their own in any kind of meaningful way. It is kind of battle of the group think mind based on headlines and sound bites on both sides.

- the online SM cancel culture means that having an unpopular view or being an independent thinker can get your words or video taken out of context as well and spread across platforms and bring a lot of immediate hate your way. Again by those who know nothing other than a 10 second clip. SM brings a lot of social pressure.

The gender identity stuff is primarily the currently acceptable vehicle for the angst and confusion of that developmental stage. In the past it has been punk, grunge, emo, goth, now its non binary or trans. Once you get to college age, it is mostly prevalent in the kids with angst - mental health issues, disadvantaged, social awkwardness / exclusion, kids who have been bullied, don't fit in, not conventionally attractive or mainstream etc. Kids who are struggling within themselves and with their social environments. Again, there has always been these angsty kids - they just have used different forms of expression over the years. This is currently socially acceptable.

Most young adults in the environment I see are very hard working and we are mostly past the entitled / I am a special snowflake group of the past decade. There are a lot of very smart kids and while yes many are idealistic as they should be in their youth, they are getting things done in life. Still have some overly involved parents and some kids who have very poorly formed independence skills but most are actually pretty good.

Mental health has become a catch all. We really need a stronger focus on prevention and on building mental strength / endurance / fitness and on promoting and maintaining good mental health like we do physical health. Look at the money and time people put into sports, gym memberships, physical activity etc. Now that mental health is recognized as just as important - we need the same amount of energy and money going into staying mentally healthy and fit.

Thank you for these observations. I'm familiar with Haidt's work and agree with some. but not all, of his views. These observations go beyond the typical generational backlash ("Kids today!") because they aren't about music, hairstyles, clothes, or entertainment. The concerns center around the essence of what it is to be alive, happy, and fulfilled. Thanks to social media and mob mentality, people are sorted into desirable and undesirables (or canceled) based on a single viewpoint, action, or poorly worded tweet. The opportunity to have meaningful conversations about issues of disagreement isn't there, and that impacts how all of us, but especially Gen Z, approach the world. Of course, you can't capture an entire generation in these generalizations, but as a parent of Gen Zs, the issue seems to be figuring out where they fit in in a highly fractured society that has improved in some ways over their parents' world but is still in a state of flux. It is more difficult to form fulfilling friendships and in-person connections when you will be judged based on your affiliation with a person who, in turn, may be judged based on a single ideological position or even one bad day. You have to be incredibly confident and brave to put yourself out there, and most adolescents and young adults aren't there yet, partly due to protective parenting. Social media fills time, but ultimately, tends to inhibit real connections.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Gen Z! No more of them are ruined or sidetracked by victimhood than those in other generations are felled by stupid things. A certain portion of people are going to get stuck on something, no matter what. That’s life.

The first 45 seconds and sometimes several minutes of many videos are useless. You can see YouTube trying to fix its old content with “suggested clips” but tik tok is better for learning most things. In general the pressure to be fast makes people make better videos.

They’re having a gender revolution I don’t understand and I think it’s great. Of course it’s imperfect. Of course they’ll get big parts wrong. Godspeed, babies. Pull us to the future.

Um - if you think TikTok is anything but toxic, you are hopelessly naive and I am afraid this discussion has gone far over your head.

TikTok is toxic if you’re posting videos of yourself or your kids. If you’re showing how to replace an outlet or propagate a plant, it’s great! It’s not videos fault that people are narcissists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Gen Z! No more of them are ruined or sidetracked by victimhood than those in other generations are felled by stupid things. A certain portion of people are going to get stuck on something, no matter what. That’s life.

The first 45 seconds and sometimes several minutes of many videos are useless. You can see YouTube trying to fix its old content with “suggested clips” but tik tok is better for learning most things. In general the pressure to be fast makes people make better videos.

They’re having a gender revolution I don’t understand and I think it’s great. Of course it’s imperfect. Of course they’ll get big parts wrong. Godspeed, babies. Pull us to the future.

Um - if you think TikTok is anything but toxic, you are hopelessly naive and I am afraid this discussion has gone far over your head.

TikTok is toxic if you’re posting videos of yourself or your kids. If you’re showing how to replace an outlet or propagate a plant, it’s great! It’s not videos fault that people are narcissists.

DP. It’s not necessarily the content that’s the biggest issue, though. It’s the format that’s purposefully designed to keep you glued to your phone for more and more and more. Do you really not see how this could be an issue for young, developing minds? Who definitely aren’t looking for how to replace an outlet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A new paper talks about the danger of social media for the young. It appears to cause an increase in the sensitivity to peer feedback. No one is sure if that is good or bad.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/03/health/social-media-brain-adolescents.html

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2799812?guestAccessKey=7fedb432-3c46-496d-be6b-e9b7394a71f2

Which explains the increase in social anxiety. It’s so common now, it’s a Gen Z personality trait.

I think we have words for it and diagnose it at a much lower threshold now. I'm millennial and I'm beyond positive I would have been diagnosed with anxiety (general and social). Like, the signs were GLARING. But if it didn't keep you from leaving your house, it wasn't a mental health problem, it was probably just a personality flaw. Millennial with anxiety = "too much of a worrier," "shy," "hormonal," etc.

That said, AOL instant messenger made social drama feel inescapable, but I accessed it on a shared family computer in the living room. I 1000% believe that 24/7 access to social media on phones makes anxiety worse for Gen Z and hope I can put it off for my kids as long as possible.

GenX with anxiety = Who?

I hear you ... I was a shy, nerdy, skin-picker who was never diagnosed back in the day but certainly would be now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Gen Z! No more of them are ruined or sidetracked by victimhood than those in other generations are felled by stupid things. A certain portion of people are going to get stuck on something, no matter what. That’s life.

The first 45 seconds and sometimes several minutes of many videos are useless. You can see YouTube trying to fix its old content with “suggested clips” but tik tok is better for learning most things. In general the pressure to be fast makes people make better videos.

They’re having a gender revolution I don’t understand and I think it’s great. Of course it’s imperfect. Of course they’ll get big parts wrong. Godspeed, babies. Pull us to the future.

Um - if you think TikTok is anything but toxic, you are hopelessly naive and I am afraid this discussion has gone far over your head.

TikTok is toxic if you’re posting videos of yourself or your kids. If you’re showing how to replace an outlet or propagate a plant, it’s great! It’s not videos fault that people are narcissists.

DP. It’s not necessarily the content that’s the biggest issue, though. It’s the format that’s purposefully designed to keep you glued to your phone for more and more and more. Do you really not see how this could be an issue for young, developing minds? Who definitely aren’t looking for how to replace an outlet?

The format AND the content are terrible. Like anything a little sus and it sends you down the rabbit hole.

https://mashable.com/article/tiktok-recommendations-far-right-wing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the 1970s and 1980s, as a GenXer, I never feared being gunned down by one of my classmates in my own school.

Fight, GenZ! I am on your side.

Neither did I. However, kids would also drive to school with a gun in the gun rack in their pickup.

That was back when guns were used for hunting/sport, not toxic co-splay gun culture.

Yep, the attitude toward guns was very different. I am GenX, and had friends who've owned guns in high school; those were hunting or sport rifles, not weapons of mass destruction, and the kids spent time practicing at the shooting ranges and were very proud of their sharpshooting skills. There was a certain "respect for the gun" culture that was instilled by their fathers. I once asked a friend if I could try shooting a gun, and he said sure, and then I had to sit through a looong lecture from him on how to handle the gun safely, and he took me to a shooting range.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work in academia - although at a large school with tens of thousands of students.

The effects of social media that I see are:
Their views are based on quick sound bites and headlines. Most are very poorly informed about the positions they hold or the issues they are arguing for or against. They often aren't even aware of the fuller context of the quip or headline or clip they saw that shaped their view. There is a lot of group think as most who hold similar views access the same social media content and due to algorythms, they aren't exposed to views outside their own in any kind of meaningful way. It is kind of battle of the group think mind based on headlines and sound bites on both sides.

-

I agree with most of your observations, but the above is certainly not limited to Gen Z. Take a look at what boomers are posting on Facebook and it's no different that what Gen Z is doing.

[Anonymous]

Teens always sucked in all these ways. It just manifests slightly differently in each new decade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Gen Z! No more of them are ruined or sidetracked by victimhood than those in other generations are felled by stupid things. A certain portion of people are going to get stuck on something, no matter what. That’s life.

The first 45 seconds and sometimes several minutes of many videos are useless. You can see YouTube trying to fix its old content with “suggested clips” but tik tok is better for learning most things. In general the pressure to be fast makes people make better videos.

They’re having a gender revolution I don’t understand and I think it’s great. Of course it’s imperfect. Of course they’ll get big parts wrong. Godspeed, babies. Pull us to the future.

Um - if you think TikTok is anything but toxic, you are hopelessly naive and I am afraid this discussion has gone far over your head.

And it is not a matter of not liking gen Z - it is a matter of seeing the way they are struggling much more than previous generations and connecting the dots.

whats your answer? Get rid of all screens, Get them land lines and read books? that's not going to happen

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Gen Z! No more of them are ruined or sidetracked by victimhood than those in other generations are felled by stupid things. A certain portion of people are going to get stuck on something, no matter what. That’s life.

The first 45 seconds and sometimes several minutes of many videos are useless. You can see YouTube trying to fix its old content with “suggested clips” but tik tok is better for learning most things. In general the pressure to be fast makes people make better videos.

They’re having a gender revolution I don’t understand and I think it’s great. Of course it’s imperfect. Of course they’ll get big parts wrong. Godspeed, babies. Pull us to the future.

Um - if you think TikTok is anything but toxic, you are hopelessly naive and I am afraid this discussion has gone far over your head.

And it is not a matter of not liking gen Z - it is a matter of seeing the way they are struggling much more than previous generations and connecting the dots.

whats your answer? Get rid of all screens, Get them land lines and read books? that's not going to happen

You can put limits on things. But some people don’t want to parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work in academia - although at a large school with tens of thousands of students.

The effects of social media that I see are:
Their views are based on quick sound bites and headlines. Most are very poorly informed about the positions they hold or the issues they are arguing for or against. They often aren't even aware of the fuller context of the quip or headline or clip they saw that shaped their view. There is a lot of group think as most who hold similar views access the same social media content and due to algorythms, they aren't exposed to views outside their own in any kind of meaningful way. It is kind of battle of the group think mind based on headlines and sound bites on both sides.

- the online SM cancel culture means that having an unpopular view or being an independent thinker can get your words or video taken out of context as well and spread across platforms and bring a lot of immediate hate your way. Again by those who know nothing other than a 10 second clip. SM brings a lot of social pressure.

The gender identity stuff is primarily the currently acceptable vehicle for the angst and confusion of that developmental stage. In the past it has been punk, grunge, emo, goth, now its non binary or trans. Once you get to college age, it is mostly prevalent in the kids with angst - mental health issues, disadvantaged, social awkwardness / exclusion, kids who have been bullied, don't fit in, not conventionally attractive or mainstream etc. Kids who are struggling within themselves and with their social environments. Again, there has always been these angsty kids - they just have used different forms of expression over the years. This is currently socially acceptable.

Most young adults in the environment I see are very hard working and we are mostly past the entitled / I am a special snowflake group of the past decade. There are a lot of very smart kids and while yes many are idealistic as they should be in their youth, they are getting things done in life. Still have some overly involved parents and some kids who have very poorly formed independence skills but most are actually pretty good.

Mental health has become a catch all. We really need a stronger focus on prevention and on building mental strength / endurance / fitness and on promoting and maintaining good mental health like we do physical health. Look at the money and time people put into sports, gym memberships, physical activity etc. Now that mental health is recognized as just as important - we need the same amount of energy and money going into staying mentally healthy and fit.

These are great observations!

I will say that the way you are talking about "the gender identity stuff" was the same way people talked about homosexuality 30 or 40 years ago. It was only in 1973 that homosexuality was declared to not me a mental disorder, and it took a while for being gay to be associated with normal mental health. Only 11 years ago being transgender was considered a mental disorder and in time, it will no longer be associated with mental illness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like Gen Z! No more of them are ruined or sidetracked by victimhood than those in other generations are felled by stupid things. A certain portion of people are going to get stuck on something, no matter what. That’s life.

The first 45 seconds and sometimes several minutes of many videos are useless. You can see YouTube trying to fix its old content with “suggested clips” but tik tok is better for learning most things. In general the pressure to be fast makes people make better videos.

They’re having a gender revolution I don’t understand and I think it’s great. Of course it’s imperfect. Of course they’ll get big parts wrong. Godspeed, babies. Pull us to the future.

Um - if you think TikTok is anything but toxic, you are hopelessly naive and I am afraid this discussion has gone far over your head.

And it is not a matter of not liking gen Z - it is a matter of seeing the way they are struggling much more than previous generations and connecting the dots.

whats your answer? Get rid of all screens, Get them land lines and read books? that's not going to happen

DP - no, of course screens in everyone's pocket is not going away. Don't believe anyone is suggesting that.

But isn't acceptance the first step in addressing any problem?

I beleive we, as a society, first need to accept social media IS a problem for many people, and especially young people. In particular:

- Social Media is addictive.

Just as with alcohol, not every user is addicted. But so many are. And,

- numerous studies have strongly suggested TikTok's proprietary (secret) algorythm is designed to trigger dopamine releases in the brains of users. This dopamine release is thought to be key in understanding addiction science. TikTok is not alone in triggering dopamine release. Other SM have a similar effect.

Addiction is a problem. Can we agree on that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such a boring, played out generational trope. You can find dozens of this article written about millennials ten years ago. Not surprised the boomers are eating it up.

“I didn’t really read it, not am I aware of how toxic social media is, from evidence based on peer reviewed studies, but I can speak confidently out of my rear end. This entire topic is just old people bthcing about young people as has been done for centuries. There is no rise in anxiety among the young because I said said so and like I just want to chill and eat some fast food and like stop writing stuff.”

This is actually quite funny

But we do have to be wary of academia and their never ending studies. They have a study for everything. And only if we listened to all of their studies, our lives would be perfect. There is intense pressure on these people to come up with research that is earth shattering. Then of course we have to accept the results 100% because it is science. And then 10 years later there is a new study that disproves the old study. But it is a lot better than pulling stuff out of butt ha

I disagree. Common sense as well as various peer reviewed studies confirm that many young people are struggling mentally and emotionally since social media has becomes wide spread part of growing up.

I see the differences in my own children - older child young millennial and just escaped the ubiquity of social media while younger DC in HS struggles much more. We were able to control social media before the pandemic but once they were on computer all day for virtual learning, it was extremely difficult to control. Younger DC has so many friends and acquaintances who are struggling also with all the issues the article raised.

The evidence is there. Mental health facilities for teens are full. Wait lists for teen psychiatrists and good therapists are long. Teen Psych units are bustling. Attempted suicides, suicides, self harm, vaping/ substance abuse and eating disorders are way up. The social media poisoning has been especially destructive for girls. So much subtle and non subtle misogyny online. No wonder so many more teen girls want to change genders.

This stuff is real and the shoot the messenger antics represent vapid denialism.

I'm the PP and I agree with what you are saying. Sometimes stuff gets lost in translation on the internet..probably my fault. My comment was meant to be a general comment about studies coming out of academia. They can be very helpful, but we usually don't know as much as we think we know. Anyway, I think the lack of physical activity and kids not spending much time with friends is a really big factor. I just don't think it is fulfilling for kids (adults included) to be on the internet all the time. I know it drives me nuts.