Homeless Man Killed by Fellow Passenger on NYC Subway

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sad. Vigilante justice cannot be condoned.

That is not what happened here. Self-defense or defense of others is not vigilantism. It is defense.

+1

Penny didn't target Neely. He acted to protect himself and others on an enclosed subway car when a man with serious mental health deficits demanded money and threatened violence. And I believe the killing was an accident -- I don't think Penny wanted to kill someone that day. He wanted to incapacitate someone who posed a threat, and I think in doing so accidentally killed him. He never should have been charged with the higher charge to begin with, and the situation does not really meet the requirements for manslaughter either.

Holding a choke for a minute after someone is unconscious is an accident? Most people would probably say that it's reckless, and that's all they need for a conviction on the manslaughter charge.

Apparently most people don’t say it’s reckless.

I say this as a New Yorker----it is really unpleasant and sometimes downright frightening to be trapped in a subway car with a disturbed and unpredictable individual. It's not an uncommon occurrence, and probably everyone on that jury had such an experience to color their perception of what's "reckless" or "negligent" in the heat of the moment under such circumstances. It's tragic all the way around, and one can only hope that we as a society find an effective way to help people like Jordan Neely get the kind of compassionate care and safe shelter they need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am fine with Penny being exonerated -- I do think he acted in self-defense and I think the testimony of other passengers should carry heavy weight as he was acting to protect them (and himself). But the whole incident is still tragic. I feel bad for Penny that he has to carry this death on his conscience even if it was justified. I feel bad for Neely's family to have lost him even if he had serious problems that should have been treated. And I feel bad for Neely, who obviously had serious mental health issues and a tragic history -- his mother was murdered and he had to testify against her killer, who he knew and had killed her in a particularly gruesome way.

This is a just outcome but also there is absolutely nothing to celebrate here.

You have a reasonable outlook on this. I think you’re right, but while I’m celebrating, I’m not celebrating Neely’s death, but rather the fact that Daniel Penny was acquitted. None of this is good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mentally ill people need to be off the streets and receiving in-patient care (institutionalization) for their own benefit and the benefit of others. It’s shameful that we have people with severe mental health issues wandering the streets unable to care for themselves and threatening harm to others.

Men will use it to lock up their wives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone seen interview with the jurors? I'm very confused by how this unfolded because I don't understand how they were deadlocked on the higher charge (indicating that at least one person wanted to convict for manslaughter) but then unanimous in finding him not guilty of the lower charge of criminally negligent homicide. That doesn't make sense.

That’s not what happened. The DA dropped the higher charge before the juror could consider it, perhaps understanding that they had a weak case and perhaps in part expecting the juror to return a hung verdict so they could use the prospect of another prosecution on the higher charge as leverage for a plea agreement. It looks like there was probably only one or two jurors who were in favor of conviction and it took a little time for the rest of the jury to convince them.

[Anonymous]

I see that the usual race grifters are out looking for a payday. Utterly pathetic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am fine with Penny being exonerated -- I do think he acted in self-defense and I think the testimony of other passengers should carry heavy weight as he was acting to protect them (and himself). But the whole incident is still tragic. I feel bad for Penny that he has to carry this death on his conscience even if it was justified. I feel bad for Neely's family to have lost him even if he had serious problems that should have been treated. And I feel bad for Neely, who obviously had serious mental health issues and a tragic history -- his mother was murdered and he had to testify against her killer, who he knew and had killed her in a particularly gruesome way.

This is a just outcome but also there is absolutely nothing to celebrate here.

Well said. The system truly failed Neely - he should have been institutionalized & medicated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone seen interview with the jurors? I'm very confused by how this unfolded because I don't understand how they were deadlocked on the higher charge (indicating that at least one person wanted to convict for manslaughter) but then unanimous in finding him not guilty of the lower charge of criminally negligent homicide. That doesn't make sense.

Because negligence is a different concept and mindset than manslaughter.

[Anonymous]

As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sad. Vigilante justice cannot be condoned.

That is not what happened here. Self-defense or defense of others is not vigilantism. It is defense.

+1

Penny didn't target Neely. He acted to protect himself and others on an enclosed subway car when a man with serious mental health deficits demanded money and threatened violence. And I believe the killing was an accident -- I don't think Penny wanted to kill someone that day. He wanted to incapacitate someone who posed a threat, and I think in doing so accidentally killed him. He never should have been charged with the higher charge to begin with, and the situation does not really meet the requirements for manslaughter either.

Holding a choke for a minute after someone is unconscious is an accident? Most people would probably say that it's reckless, and that's all they need for a conviction on the manslaughter charge.

For someone who is not a police office, who is acting on instinct and out of fear, yes.

A minute is nothing. It's really not that long. Have you ever been in a situation where you feared for your life or that of a loved one, and had the adrenaline pumping and your heart pounding in your ears? Hyper vigilance in a situation like that frequently lasts past when the threat has been neutralized. It takes time for your body to respond to new information about your safety. That it only took Penny a minute to re-acclimate and let go is likely actually a testament to his training as a marine, making him more accustomed to processing intense fear and managing fight or flight.

I have worked in victim advocacy (specifically with rape victims) and this is a frequent problem with how people evaluate the behavior of victims after the fact. People want to impose impassioned logic on the behavior of someone who is experiencing an intense fear response, and it is very common to misread behavior. Your brain cannot process logic when it is flooded with adrenaline.

So he's not a trained police officer, but he is a trained marine.

Your charcterization of the situation is very misleading. Why would you do that? This is not an adrenaline dump type situation like a close quarters shooting or violent rape. Penny had back control and a rear naked choke applied to someone who has no idea how to fight. He held this position for several minutes and even had bystanders ready to help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

Yes, I think many people will justify criminal behavior due to fear or frustration with a system that has allowed things to get out of control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is so sad. Vigilante justice cannot be condoned.

That is not what happened here. Self-defense or defense of others is not vigilantism. It is defense.

+1

Penny didn't target Neely. He acted to protect himself and others on an enclosed subway car when a man with serious mental health deficits demanded money and threatened violence. And I believe the killing was an accident -- I don't think Penny wanted to kill someone that day. He wanted to incapacitate someone who posed a threat, and I think in doing so accidentally killed him. He never should have been charged with the higher charge to begin with, and the situation does not really meet the requirements for manslaughter either.

Holding a choke for a minute after someone is unconscious is an accident? Most people would probably say that it's reckless, and that's all they need for a conviction on the manslaughter charge.

For someone who is not a police office, who is acting on instinct and out of fear, yes.

A minute is nothing. It's really not that long. Have you ever been in a situation where you feared for your life or that of a loved one, and had the adrenaline pumping and your heart pounding in your ears? Hyper vigilance in a situation like that frequently lasts past when the threat has been neutralized. It takes time for your body to respond to new information about your safety. That it only took Penny a minute to re-acclimate and let go is likely actually a testament to his training as a marine, making him more accustomed to processing intense fear and managing fight or flight.

I have worked in victim advocacy (specifically with rape victims) and this is a frequent problem with how people evaluate the behavior of victims after the fact. People want to impose impassioned logic on the behavior of someone who is experiencing an intense fear response, and it is very common to misread behavior. Your brain cannot process logic when it is flooded with adrenaline.

So he's not a trained police officer, but he is a trained marine.

Your charcterization of the situation is very misleading. Why would you do that? This is not an adrenaline dump type situation like a close quarters shooting or violent rape. Penny had back control and a rear naked choke applied to someone who has no idea how to fight. He held this position for several minutes and even had bystanders ready to help.

You don't think a situation where a group of people were threatened by an apparently unstable man in a small sealed tube is going to result in an adrenaline flood? Of course it is. He held the position until he felt it was safe. This wound up being slightly longer (but only slightly) than when it was in fact actually safe.

And yes, marines and police officers are trained different. It is more normal for a marine to maintain an offensive posture for longer than it would be for a police officer because marines have to operate in places where deadly violence might come from anywhere.

You are also overlooking the fact that the specific action Penny took -- to physically disable Neely by placing him in a choke hold -- engaged his full body and required sustained engagement. Unlike shooting a gun or even brandishing a knife, a choke hold requires you to maintain tension in your body because it puts you in very close physical contact with exactly the person you are afraid of. It does not surprise me at all that it would take a minute or longer for Penny's brain to comprehend that the danger had passed and then to send the message to the rest of his body to release the hold. I have worked with rape survivors who even years later will have an uncontrolled physical response to certain triggers because your body doesn't understand logic and adrenaline and other hormones can have such a powerful and immobilizing control over the body. You really have to work to to counteract those hormones. Fear turns humans into animals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

Yes, I think many people will justify criminal behavior due to fear or frustration with a system that has allowed things to get out of control.

I’m the PP you’re responding to. In addition to being a NYC resident and regular subway rider, I’m also a lawyer, and I don’t agree that Penny’s behavior was criminal. I think it met the legal elements of self defense. I think the decision to charge him was stupid and a waste of prosecutorial resources, on the legal merits, and was likely significantly influenced by the fact that Penny is white and Neely is Black (which had zero relevance to this situation).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

Yes, I think many people will justify criminal behavior due to fear or frustration with a system that has allowed things to get out of control.

I’m the PP you’re responding to. In addition to being a NYC resident and regular subway rider, I’m also a lawyer, and I don’t agree that Penny’s behavior was criminal. I think it met the legal elements of self defense. I think the decision to charge him was stupid and a waste of prosecutorial resources, on the legal merits, and was likely significantly influenced by the fact that Penny is white and Neely is Black (which had zero relevance to this situation).

+1

Not a New Yorker but also a lawyer. He was charged for emotional reasons, not because of the facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who lived in NYC and regularly rode the subway both then and later, Penny’s acquittal is great news. Riding the subway is often not for the faint of heart and riders depend on the guardian angels not to sit back passively when crazy people start harassing riders.

As for Alvin Bragg, he is a disgrace who has no business having any prosecutorial authority. His decision to charge Penny in the first place made most New Yorkers feel less safe in their city, and the sooner this incompetent buffoon leaves his position the better.

+1000. I am a NYC resident and I completely agree with you. It was an insane decision to charge Penny on these facts, and I am very, very relieved he was acquitted.

Yes, I think many people will justify criminal behavior due to fear or frustration with a system that has allowed things to get out of control.

I’m the PP you’re responding to. In addition to being a NYC resident and regular subway rider, I’m also a lawyer, and I don’t agree that Penny’s behavior was criminal. I think it met the legal elements of self defense. I think the decision to charge him was stupid and a waste of prosecutorial resources, on the legal merits, and was likely significantly influenced by the fact that Penny is white and Neely is Black (which had zero relevance to this situation).

+1

Not a New Yorker but also a lawyer. He was charged for emotional reasons, not because of the facts.

+1