Narcissistic SIL

[Anonymous]

Could you describe your narcissistic SIL who seems to initially fool people she meets until they catch on, albeit slowly, because she’s so good at hiding it? it even took me a while, and I’m usually good at spotting them fairly quickly.

[Anonymous]

This seems very specific. I don’t have a narcissistic SIL, but have another narcissistic in my life…but we only want SILs on here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This seems very specific. I don’t have a narcissistic SIL, but have another narcissistic in my life…but we only want SILs on here?

Who’s the narc in your life?

[Anonymous]

You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

[Anonymous]

It’s a thing— covert narcissists

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

Agree. So many armchair psychologists/psychiatrists. And even worse - “I’m usually good at spotting them fairly quickly.” Yeah right.

[Anonymous]

I am pretty old and, to the best of my knowledge, I don’t know a narcissist. Am I lucky, an outlier or I simply never become entangled with someone who I thought of as off/too intense?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

Not the PP, but let me take a stab at this: My SiL generally doesn't like me. Some of it may be due to self esteem even though she attended elite institutions (in case she hadn't told you) and has had a fairly successful career in the arts and literature (not as successful as she would like, but much more so than many of her peers). Some of it may be due to having been the "only" girl for awhile with her dad, husband, and brother (now DH) and didn't like having to share the spotlight (look, that term would have never occurred to me, but a mutual friend of DH and SiL mentioned it after one of her outbursts about me).

I was raised to be a good IL, so I wasn't prepared for someone who didn't understand give and take in family life. It's always about them and their family. Their kids are older, so their "firsts" come first. When it comes around to our kids, well, it's not a "first in the family," so it's not a first and not worthy of any inconvenience.

I also didn't expect to learn that I'm "not an aunt" to her children because I'm not a blood relative. Her kids somehow have overridden her instruction to refer to us as "Uncle X" and "Y" and do use aunt. I had really looked forward to being an aunt but being a present one simply wasn't worth the conflict ("send money for BDs and holidays, but don't really interact with our kids otherwise").

SiL is super nice with DH's and my friends when they are visiting and we have friends over. One friend just doesn't get what I am saying - "she seems so nice." I learned, however, from another friend that this kind of "bait and switch" isn't unusual - she may be nice with them, but that doesn't mean she is nice to me. In fact, she may be extra nice to them in front of me in order to underscore how I'm not worthy of even her passing interest.

SiL and BiL visited recently. In some ways it was a good visit - bonding over their ailing parents, etc. I suggested the visit to DH as I know he wants to keep a relationship with her, preferably a good one. If anything, I've provided insight to him over time on how he should be transparent with her about their parents' finances, health, etc (they turn to him more than her), even if it takes extra time he doesn't always have, etc because it's the best way to handle sibling relations, especially in the later years.

But it wasn't an easy weekend in some ways. Some time after they left, I kinda broke down in front of DH and told him that it's just so hard to have to be around someone who really has no interest and can't even bother to feign it. I explained, for example, that I can pretty much write a narrative of her life, especially from HS on about what his sister has done, names of her friends, what she studied in college/grad school and where, the jobs that she has held, even the names of some. Then I told him that your sister would never be able to tell me my parents' names, what I studied in college, where I've lived, the jobs I've held, where I worked overseas, etc. She has never asked and is not interested in my past or present. FWIW, I've not necessarily asked her all these questions, I've simply listened when she was talking.

DH did acknowledge my feelings. On more than one occasion, he has mentioned that he doesn't always return her calls because after the perfunctory exchange of pleasantries, the conversation devolves into being one about her. I also know in some ways he wishes I would just accept it as he has. Alas, I don't think that's always as easy to do when you are not related.

So yeah, it's a strained relationship, at least for me, but I think that has more to do with her self-involvement, perhaps even narcissism, than just the ebb and flow of "human" relationships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

Not the PP, but let me take a stab at this: My SiL generally doesn't like me. Some of it may be due to self esteem even though she attended elite institutions (in case she hadn't told you) and has had a fairly successful career in the arts and literature (not as successful as she would like, but much more so than many of her peers). Some of it may be due to having been the "only" girl for awhile with her dad, husband, and brother (now DH) and didn't like having to share the spotlight (look, that term would have never occurred to me, but a mutual friend of DH and SiL mentioned it after one of her outbursts about me).

I was raised to be a good IL, so I wasn't prepared for someone who didn't understand give and take in family life. It's always about them and their family. Their kids are older, so their "firsts" come first. When it comes around to our kids, well, it's not a "first in the family," so it's not a first and not worthy of any inconvenience.

I also didn't expect to learn that I'm "not an aunt" to her children because I'm not a blood relative. Her kids somehow have overridden her instruction to refer to us as "Uncle X" and "Y" and do use aunt. I had really looked forward to being an aunt but being a present one simply wasn't worth the conflict ("send money for BDs and holidays, but don't really interact with our kids otherwise").

SiL is super nice with DH's and my friends when they are visiting and we have friends over. One friend just doesn't get what I am saying - "she seems so nice." I learned, however, from another friend that this kind of "bait and switch" isn't unusual - she may be nice with them, but that doesn't mean she is nice to me. In fact, she may be extra nice to them in front of me in order to underscore how I'm not worthy of even her passing interest.

SiL and BiL visited recently. In some ways it was a good visit - bonding over their ailing parents, etc. I suggested the visit to DH as I know he wants to keep a relationship with her, preferably a good one. If anything, I've provided insight to him over time on how he should be transparent with her about their parents' finances, health, etc (they turn to him more than her), even if it takes extra time he doesn't always have, etc because it's the best way to handle sibling relations, especially in the later years.

But it wasn't an easy weekend in some ways. Some time after they left, I kinda broke down in front of DH and told him that it's just so hard to have to be around someone who really has no interest and can't even bother to feign it. I explained, for example, that I can pretty much write a narrative of her life, especially from HS on about what his sister has done, names of her friends, what she studied in college/grad school and where, the jobs that she has held, even the names of some. Then I told him that your sister would never be able to tell me my parents' names, what I studied in college, where I've lived, the jobs I've held, where I worked overseas, etc. She has never asked and is not interested in my past or present. FWIW, I've not necessarily asked her all these questions, I've simply listened when she was talking.

DH did acknowledge my feelings. On more than one occasion, he has mentioned that he doesn't always return her calls because after the perfunctory exchange of pleasantries, the conversation devolves into being one about her. I also know in some ways he wishes I would just accept it as he has. Alas, I don't think that's always as easy to do when you are not related.

So yeah, it's a strained relationship, at least for me, but I think that has more to do with her self-involvement, perhaps even narcissism, than just the ebb and flow of "human" relationships.

Thanks for sharing. You’ve articulated a lot of what I go through and endure. You are more than a decent human being, as is your husband. The fact that he acknowledges what you say/experience is HUGE. He’s not trying to bury his head in the sand about the whole thing while asking you to accept his sister’s behavior. It’s also commendable that you are not trying to come in between their relationship.

FWIW, his sister’s behavior is deep rooted and she’s unlikely to change. Don’t take it personally (easier said than done especially when you feel rejection, I totally get it). And it doesn’t help that she’s two-faced acting one way with you and one way with your friends. But that only matters if you’re trying to "expose" her. Just ignore her.

I hope I can take my own advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

Not the PP, but let me take a stab at this: My SiL generally doesn't like me. Some of it may be due to self esteem even though she attended elite institutions (in case she hadn't told you) and has had a fairly successful career in the arts and literature (not as successful as she would like, but much more so than many of her peers). Some of it may be due to having been the "only" girl for awhile with her dad, husband, and brother (now DH) and didn't like having to share the spotlight (look, that term would have never occurred to me, but a mutual friend of DH and SiL mentioned it after one of her outbursts about me).

I was raised to be a good IL, so I wasn't prepared for someone who didn't understand give and take in family life. It's always about them and their family. Their kids are older, so their "firsts" come first. When it comes around to our kids, well, it's not a "first in the family," so it's not a first and not worthy of any inconvenience.

I also didn't expect to learn that I'm "not an aunt" to her children because I'm not a blood relative. Her kids somehow have overridden her instruction to refer to us as "Uncle X" and "Y" and do use aunt. I had really looked forward to being an aunt but being a present one simply wasn't worth the conflict ("send money for BDs and holidays, but don't really interact with our kids otherwise").

SiL is super nice with DH's and my friends when they are visiting and we have friends over. One friend just doesn't get what I am saying - "she seems so nice." I learned, however, from another friend that this kind of "bait and switch" isn't unusual - she may be nice with them, but that doesn't mean she is nice to me. In fact, she may be extra nice to them in front of me in order to underscore how I'm not worthy of even her passing interest.

SiL and BiL visited recently. In some ways it was a good visit - bonding over their ailing parents, etc. I suggested the visit to DH as I know he wants to keep a relationship with her, preferably a good one. If anything, I've provided insight to him over time on how he should be transparent with her about their parents' finances, health, etc (they turn to him more than her), even if it takes extra time he doesn't always have, etc because it's the best way to handle sibling relations, especially in the later years.

But it wasn't an easy weekend in some ways. Some time after they left, I kinda broke down in front of DH and told him that it's just so hard to have to be around someone who really has no interest and can't even bother to feign it. I explained, for example, that I can pretty much write a narrative of her life, especially from HS on about what his sister has done, names of her friends, what she studied in college/grad school and where, the jobs that she has held, even the names of some. Then I told him that your sister would never be able to tell me my parents' names, what I studied in college, where I've lived, the jobs I've held, where I worked overseas, etc. She has never asked and is not interested in my past or present. FWIW, I've not necessarily asked her all these questions, I've simply listened when she was talking.

DH did acknowledge my feelings. On more than one occasion, he has mentioned that he doesn't always return her calls because after the perfunctory exchange of pleasantries, the conversation devolves into being one about her. I also know in some ways he wishes I would just accept it as he has. Alas, I don't think that's always as easy to do when you are not related.

So yeah, it's a strained relationship, at least for me, but I think that has more to do with her self-involvement, perhaps even narcissism, than just the ebb and flow of "human" relationships.

Thanks for sharing. You’ve articulated a lot of what I go through and endure. You are more than a decent human being, as is your husband. The fact that he acknowledges what you say/experience is HUGE. He’s not trying to bury his head in the sand about the whole thing while asking you to accept his sister’s behavior. It’s also commendable that you are not trying to come in between their relationship.

FWIW, his sister’s behavior is deep rooted and she’s unlikely to change. Don’t take it personally (easier said than done especially when you feel rejection, I totally get it). And it doesn’t help that she’s two-faced acting one way with you and one way with your friends. But that only matters if you’re trying to "expose" her. Just ignore her.

I hope I can take my own advice.

Thanks. Yes, taking your advice is easier said than done. TBH, DH is not always so understanding. Sometimes he really does want me to stifle it, possibly because he doesn't want to face his own disappointment. But other times he truly is, especially when he has also spent the same time together, so he can't deny what's happening.

Their mom is fairly similar and SiL is pretty locked in on it. I don't think the mom does it as much with me or SiL's DH, probably trying to keep in check with the kid-in-laws. But she also has a hard time when the convo doesn't involve her. In a weak moment ~2ish decades ago, MiL did share that she did think that SiL was fairly "selfish" (her preferred term of art) - had been as a kid and hadn't grown out of it. I simply sat on other end of phone and occasionally said "uh unh" to signal I was still there.

The following day, MiL called, apologized, and said it wasn't appropriate to have shared those feelings. I get that. I don't know why she had even chosen to have that convo with me, but guessing there must've been some dust up between them.

Thanks again. Sending you good vibes for you to be able to do the best that you can under the circumstances. It's not easy.

[Anonymous]

FFS, every other post on DCUM seems to be someone diagnosing someone they don't particularly like as a narcissist.

OP, your SIL isn't a narcissist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am pretty old and, to the best of my knowledge, I don’t know a narcissist. Am I lucky, an outlier or I simply never become entangled with someone who I thought of as off/too intense?

Did you ever work in corporate? There are many as you climb up the ladder.

[Anonymous]

Hey folks, just because somebody doesn't like you, doesn't make them a narcissist. Both you of you seem fairly high conflict and high maintenance (by both, I mean the two posters lifting each other up here).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

Not the PP, but let me take a stab at this: My SiL generally doesn't like me. Some of it may be due to self esteem even though she attended elite institutions (in case she hadn't told you) and has had a fairly successful career in the arts and literature (not as successful as she would like, but much more so than many of her peers). Some of it may be due to having been the "only" girl for awhile with her dad, husband, and brother (now DH) and didn't like having to share the spotlight (look, that term would have never occurred to me, but a mutual friend of DH and SiL mentioned it after one of her outbursts about me).

I was raised to be a good IL, so I wasn't prepared for someone who didn't understand give and take in family life. It's always about them and their family. Their kids are older, so their "firsts" come first. When it comes around to our kids, well, it's not a "first in the family," so it's not a first and not worthy of any inconvenience.

I also didn't expect to learn that I'm "not an aunt" to her children because I'm not a blood relative. Her kids somehow have overridden her instruction to refer to us as "Uncle X" and "Y" and do use aunt. I had really looked forward to being an aunt but being a present one simply wasn't worth the conflict ("send money for BDs and holidays, but don't really interact with our kids otherwise").

SiL is super nice with DH's and my friends when they are visiting and we have friends over. One friend just doesn't get what I am saying - "she seems so nice." I learned, however, from another friend that this kind of "bait and switch" isn't unusual - she may be nice with them, but that doesn't mean she is nice to me. In fact, she may be extra nice to them in front of me in order to underscore how I'm not worthy of even her passing interest.

SiL and BiL visited recently. In some ways it was a good visit - bonding over their ailing parents, etc. I suggested the visit to DH as I know he wants to keep a relationship with her, preferably a good one. If anything, I've provided insight to him over time on how he should be transparent with her about their parents' finances, health, etc (they turn to him more than her), even if it takes extra time he doesn't always have, etc because it's the best way to handle sibling relations, especially in the later years.

But it wasn't an easy weekend in some ways. Some time after they left, I kinda broke down in front of DH and told him that it's just so hard to have to be around someone who really has no interest and can't even bother to feign it. I explained, for example, that I can pretty much write a narrative of her life, especially from HS on about what his sister has done, names of her friends, what she studied in college/grad school and where, the jobs that she has held, even the names of some. Then I told him that your sister would never be able to tell me my parents' names, what I studied in college, where I've lived, the jobs I've held, where I worked overseas, etc. She has never asked and is not interested in my past or present. FWIW, I've not necessarily asked her all these questions, I've simply listened when she was talking.

DH did acknowledge my feelings. On more than one occasion, he has mentioned that he doesn't always return her calls because after the perfunctory exchange of pleasantries, the conversation devolves into being one about her. I also know in some ways he wishes I would just accept it as he has. Alas, I don't think that's always as easy to do when you are not related.

So yeah, it's a strained relationship, at least for me, but I think that has more to do with her self-involvement, perhaps even narcissism, than just the ebb and flow of "human" relationships.

Thanks for sharing. You’ve articulated a lot of what I go through and endure. You are more than a decent human being, as is your husband. The fact that he acknowledges what you say/experience is HUGE. He’s not trying to bury his head in the sand about the whole thing while asking you to accept his sister’s behavior. It’s also commendable that you are not trying to come in between their relationship.

FWIW, his sister’s behavior is deep rooted and she’s unlikely to change. Don’t take it personally (easier said than done especially when you feel rejection, I totally get it). And it doesn’t help that she’s two-faced acting one way with you and one way with your friends. But that only matters if you’re trying to "expose" her. Just ignore her.

I hope I can take my own advice.

I’m in a similar SIL situation. It’s tough. I basically do the barest amount of interacting as possible. It’s pretty easy since she doesn’t want to interact with me anyway. My husband keeps her more at arm’s length than she realizes, although he isn’t obvious about it. Every friendship of hers has gone sour eventually, so I know it’s not just me.

I agree with don’t take personally; don’t think you are going to change it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am pretty old and, to the best of my knowledge, I don’t know a narcissist. Am I lucky, an outlier or I simply never become entangled with someone who I thought of as off/too intense?

You probably don't.

Lots of posters here fancy themselves armchair psychologists and feel like they have to exaggerate and apply labels to people who are just toxic and selfish (which is terrible enough) to be taken seriously. When I hear someone label people like this without actual knowledge of any diagnosis it makes me suspect they are being dramatic. Would be far more effective to say "my SIL is self centered to the point that she alienates me and ignores my kids to brag about hers."