Should I send my kids to mathnasium?

[Anonymous]

The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I have a friend from Singapore. She talks about malls that are devoted to tutoring and music lessons that are open to 11 PM and full. The reality is that there is massive pressure to excel in school and be advanced. From elementary school, to make sure you are in the right track, to tests for the elite schools at each level. They stop planes from flying in South Korea during testing for college admissions. Suicide rates spike at test time in Japan.

My kid can take differential equations in college, he’ll be fine. Heck, he’ll probably be fine if he never takes calculus. I never took it and I am pretty happy with where I am. Only three years of high school math but I earned my PhD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I have a friend from Singapore. She talks about malls that are devoted to tutoring and music lessons that are open to 11 PM and full. The reality is that there is massive pressure to excel in school and be advanced. From elementary school, to make sure you are in the right track, to tests for the elite schools at each level. They stop planes from flying in South Korea during testing for college admissions. Suicide rates spike at test time in Japan.

My kid can take differential equations in college, he’ll be fine. Heck, he’ll probably be fine if he never takes calculus. I never took it and I am pretty happy with where I am. Only three years of high school math but I earned my PhD.

While I agree with you on the problem in this area of people trying to unreasonably accelerate their kids, I don't think your lackadaisical generalization of "they'll be fine because I was" is useful at all. The reality is that many kids are not fine and don't understand what's going on in math class. Others are bored because of the lack of challenge or critical thinking. There's also kids like the OP's kids who may be fine, but are not feeling ok at all because they perceive they are dumb, or behind the curve. Your personal anecdote worked great for you but predicts nothing about others situations. Clearly there is a significant problem in the classroom or we wouldn't have a multitude of parents concerned on these threads. For some kids, doing math outside the class is the right thing to do and fixes the problem. For others it doesn't (they get more bored, or they feel pressured to stay ahead, etc.)

It's amazing to me how hit and miss classroom experience is in this area, given that the math standards are very static. If the teacher is good and class is relatively well behaved, students are likely to happy and learn a lot. If they're not or kids are disruptive, or worse, both, the learning experience greatly suffers. In elementary school it's particularly important to have an overall good learning environment. When it doesn't work out, kids are generally already behind in middle school and start checking out by high school. Parents, if you want your kids to be prepared for the modern world, engage with them in critical thinking, creative reasoning, and logic. And do it in elementary school when they're still young. I can promise you that countless kids are done with math by middle school (i.e unable to creatively reason beyond basic procedural steps).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The US turns out a good number of Engineers, Doctors, Architects, hell all sorts of people in jobs requiring advanced math. I would guess the vast majority of those focus did not attend centers like Mathnasium or do Beast Academy.

Families should do what they feel is best for their kids but this notion that math in the US is awful is silly. No, we don’t use a system of education similar to the ones found through out Asia. Heck, the IB program is meant to be similar to the European system. And yet lots of kids take advanced math in high school and go into math related fields. Most are not drilling on math outside of school.

OP: Your kid is not behind. He is where he should be. Ask him if he wants to spend 2-5 hours a week outside of school doing math at a math center. If he says yes, have at it. I would be shocked if he said yes. Otherwise, he is where he should be and the “advanced” kids are where they are because they are studying math as an extra curricular to get ahead.

These engineers, doctors and architects are not who they are thanks to US. They are who they are thanks to who they are, if you know what I mean, and not because of anything the US does. The US is not capable of offering good basic education to all. Keep bragging about the top performers who we all know would be fine even when they never set foot to a school.
In fact, the school probably does get in the way of their education.

I grew up in an Irish Catholic community. I know a good number of Doctors and Engineers who attended the same school I did. I promise you they did not go to math programs after school. I attended Graduate school and earned a PhD with a math based programs. Three quarters of my classmates where non-Asian and did just fine solving and developing Game Theoretic Models.

No offense, but there are plenty of US born kids attending Engineering and Medical schools who were not taking Algebra at a tutoring center in fifth or sixth grade.

Anecdotally, one of my co-workers is Korean and her kids did go to math programs and Korean school and TJ. None of them are using that STEM in their jobs. My co-worker flat out said the kids didn’t want to go to TJ but they provided incentives so the kids did. All that money, time and effort and her kids are not using those skills.

I asked my co-worker why the emphasized math they way they did and she said that is what everyone in her neighborhood did so that is what she did. She wanted the best for her kids. Her kids had great success in a competitive environment but it wasn’t because they were interested.

I fully get that there are kids who love math and learning, my DH and son are both in that category. We play math games, have robotics stuff at the house, and do summer workbooks. I have asked my son if he wants to take additional math classes and he thought I was crazy. He likes playing at the park, playing sports, building with his blocks/marble runs/legos and other things. He will be just fine.

This is the oldest fallacy in the book. Your anecdotal stance seems to be why bother learning something because "when will we use this?" That is a totally acceptable question when kids genuinely want to know why they're learning what they're learning in math class, but it's sad when adults essentially parrot this same argument. Of course there's issues if parents chose to push their kids to TJ, but that's not the point. The main purpose of learning math in school isn't because you are planning on using it on the job, it's to learn how to develop your mind. Kids don't play sports after school and on weekends because they plan on being professional athletes, it's because they enjoy it and it makes them healthier and more physically fit. And you can't be serious implying that because most people don't use the math they learned in school on the job, they should not bother learning it at all in the first place. It's even more surprising, coming from you, a professed PhD. And not to sidetrack from the original topic, but do you realize that most of the research and high tech jobs in our country are not Americans? Do you realize that the tech world can't currently find enough smart people to fill their positions and they have to scour the rest of the world and import them with visas? What does that say on average about US STEM college graduates?

Under your advice of letting everything just be, most kids here are already locked out of any of these exciting opportunities before they even hit college. Sure, they go to college, many realize that they need to retake some math from high school (aka freshman year remedial math), and barely make it through a STEM field. They think they're not smart enough, or equivalently falsely believe that only the super smart people must work at the multitude of cutting edge companies that actually create new things. A few lucky ones overcome this by working incredibly hard through college and crack through these stereotypes. The rest find something they like in STEM if they're lucky and brave, or just settle by working in the average corporate office job. But all the exciting high tech and research jobs, high paying finance jobs, etc. are not available to most people who want them and one significant reason is that the average STEM US college graduates are not mathematically qualified to fill them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an immigrant and Asian, I rolled my eyes to those immigrant Asian acquaintances who sent their children to "tutoring". But, not anymore.

When my child was in 3rd grade AAP class, I spent sometime to understand what was going on in the classroom, and had a sudden realization that the school work is not enough. My kid naturally is good with math, but his work is messy and written all over the place. Actually he rarely wrote anything done since it was not required in school and he could do those questions in his head. You could say that he is smart but I know this habit will only create big troubles when he is at higher grades. (I teach science in college and have seen plenty of students.) I honestly do not understand why we do not use textbook in FCPS. Students need to see organized and consistent examples of problem solving - not random worksheets from different resources, they need to know how to read by highlighting and taking notes on the books directly... Well, my child is now going to "tutoring" so he can have a textbook and associated homework, and can learn things in a structured way.

I'm an immigrant and Asian and my AAP kids don't get formal tutoring- YET. The one in third grade is learning Pre-algebra and the one in fourth grade is learning Algebra. They are working on some kind math competition in the school and there is a very tight sense of community. My kid don't appear to struggle, but they do seem to enjoy the competitiveness that the program is starting now.

I don't think textbooks (Kumon or Mathnasium) are absolutely necessary. FCPS provides prodigy for us at home and we work with novel math problems (we work on identifying patterns). I think it's more of seeing the beauty of math in the patterns and repitition that truly helps kids at this stage. This being said: my fourth grader loves the Everything You Need to Ace Math in One Big Fat Notebook: The Complete Middle School Study Guide (Big Fat Notebooks) and I use games from Math with Bad Drawings. But in general, at this age, I feel like tutoring is silly. Maybe in 7th and 8th grade we will re-address it.

What book/website etc are you using for the pattern identification problems? Thank you

PP here.

The Everything Math book listed above: https://www.amazon.com/Everything-You-Need-Math-Notebook/dp/0761160965/ref=asc_df_0761160965/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312089887152&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15650503756624360425&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008130&hvtargid=pla-422986923983&psc=1

And Math with Bad Drawings:https://www.amazon.com/Math-Bad-Drawings-Illuminating-Reality/dp/0316509035/ref=sr_1_2?crid=165BWX2BY0OOW&keywords=math+with+bad+drawings&qid=1579152572&s=books&sprefix=math+with+%2Cstripbooks%2C145&sr=1-2

We do pattern identification by simple x-y graphs, number lines, exponents vs. multiplication vs. addition. I don't teach math as a profession: I just teach it to my kids the way I think of math. We sit on a sofa and we look at patterns and talk about numbers. In car rides we do multiplication and division problems and simple pre-aglebra while I drive. Geometry will be fun, I'm planning a lesson on how calculus explains geometry and physics (no problems, just basics of circles.) If you can't do this as a parent, youtube can.

I find it fun. But it's also completely nurturing: no worksheets no pressure. Just hey: isn't this cool?

I don't do workbooks: they get a lot of repitition in school as is, but also, they don't really respond to it well. Last night we went through cubes and cube routes before going to bed and we did it in terms of looking at their legos and blocks.

But patterns help kids with math more than math tutoring. Because they can connect patterns. And patterns are things that are easily remembered.

As for Prodigy: ask your kid about it. I know our school uses it as well as many others as a reward. They also use AoPS in our school as well as other things. You can download the app and have them play at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an immigrant and Asian, I rolled my eyes to those immigrant Asian acquaintances who sent their children to "tutoring". But, not anymore.

When my child was in 3rd grade AAP class, I spent sometime to understand what was going on in the classroom, and had a sudden realization that the school work is not enough. My kid naturally is good with math, but his work is messy and written all over the place. Actually he rarely wrote anything done since it was not required in school and he could do those questions in his head. You could say that he is smart but I know this habit will only create big troubles when he is at higher grades. (I teach science in college and have seen plenty of students.) I honestly do not understand why we do not use textbook in FCPS. Students need to see organized and consistent examples of problem solving - not random worksheets from different resources, they need to know how to read by highlighting and taking notes on the books directly... Well, my child is now going to "tutoring" so he can have a textbook and associated homework, and can learn things in a structured way.

I'm an immigrant and Asian and my AAP kids don't get formal tutoring- YET. The one in third grade is learning Pre-algebra and the one in fourth grade is learning Algebra. They are working on some kind math competition in the school and there is a very tight sense of community. My kid don't appear to struggle, but they do seem to enjoy the competitiveness that the program is starting now.

I don't think textbooks (Kumon or Mathnasium) are absolutely necessary. FCPS provides prodigy for us at home and we work with novel math problems (we work on identifying patterns). I think it's more of seeing the beauty of math in the patterns and repitition that truly helps kids at this stage. This being said: my fourth grader loves the Everything You Need to Ace Math in One Big Fat Notebook: The Complete Middle School Study Guide (Big Fat Notebooks) and I use games from Math with Bad Drawings. But in general, at this age, I feel like tutoring is silly. Maybe in 7th and 8th grade we will re-address it.

What book/website etc are you using for the pattern identification problems? Thank you

PP here.

The Everything Math book listed above: https://www.amazon.com/Everything-You-Need-Math-Notebook/dp/0761160965/ref=asc_df_0761160965/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312089887152&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15650503756624360425&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008130&hvtargid=pla-422986923983&psc=1

And Math with Bad Drawings:https://www.amazon.com/Math-Bad-Drawings-Illuminating-Reality/dp/0316509035/ref=sr_1_2?crid=165BWX2BY0OOW&keywords=math+with+bad+drawings&qid=1579152572&s=books&sprefix=math+with+%2Cstripbooks%2C145&sr=1-2

We do pattern identification by simple x-y graphs, number lines, exponents vs. multiplication vs. addition. I don't teach math as a profession: I just teach it to my kids the way I think of math. We sit on a sofa and we look at patterns and talk about numbers. In car rides we do multiplication and division problems and simple pre-aglebra while I drive. Geometry will be fun, I'm planning a lesson on how calculus explains geometry and physics (no problems, just basics of circles.) If you can't do this as a parent, youtube can.

I find it fun. But it's also completely nurturing: no worksheets no pressure. Just hey: isn't this cool?

I don't do workbooks: they get a lot of repitition in school as is, but also, they don't really respond to it well. Last night we went through cubes and cube routes before going to bed and we did it in terms of looking at their legos and blocks.

But patterns help kids with math more than math tutoring. Because they can connect patterns. And patterns are things that are easily remembered.

As for Prodigy: ask your kid about it. I know our school uses it as well as many others as a reward. They also use AoPS in our school as well as other things. You can download the app and have them play at home.

Thank you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I don't think the US is terrible. I think FCPS is terrible, largely because they don't have a curriculum or textbook. The classes look to me like the teacher is downloading worksheets from the internet, cobbling together a curriculum the best she can, and using time fillers as stations otherwise. I also don't think the centers model is beneficial to anyone after maybe 2nd grade.

The classes I had back in the 1980s in flyover country were much more rigorous and demanding than what I'm seeing in FCPS AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Ask him if he wants to spend 2-5 hours a week outside of school doing math at a math center. If he says yes, have at it. I would be shocked if he said yes.

Why would you be shocked? Some kids love math and are thrilled to do math that is more challenging. My kid was asked the same question a few years ago and said yes! His outside math class is his favorite part of the week.

[Anonymous]

I agree, kids are different. My kid loves his AoPS class, he is looking forward to it every week. He will miss one class soon and has asked me to sit in on it so I can teach him later. One of my friend's kid hates math, dad was graduated from a top STEM university but the kid just does not have any math sense. Art is his thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Meh... everyone is prepping like crazy, the ones saying their kids are "naturally gifted" are the biggest frauds. BTDT.

+1000. naturally gifted but needs to go to tutoring to learn the concepts earlier than peers. Oh, but it’s enrichment. And my kid begs to go do extra math. Ok, then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I don't think the US is terrible. I think FCPS is terrible, largely because they don't have a curriculum or textbook. The classes look to me like the teacher is downloading worksheets from the internet, cobbling together a curriculum the best she can, and using time fillers as stations otherwise. I also don't think the centers model is beneficial to anyone after maybe 2nd grade.

The classes I had back in the 1980s in flyover country were much more rigorous and demanding than what I'm seeing in FCPS AAP.

This is true for DC's class. They have a spiral notebook for math and the first few minutes of every class are spent cutting a worksheet down to size to fit on the notebook paper and gluing it in. They get about 10 mins of direct instruction while they're sitting on a carpet, and some of that time is spent getting everyone to find a spot, be quiet, and listen. They then go back to their tables (they don't have desks) to work on their worksheet. I haven't been able to figure out where the centers come in to play in this chain of events but I know they do them because DD complains kids just mess around. This is 4th grade.

She was previously in Catholic school but the social situation was tough for her/us, it was expensive, and I drank the kool-aid that math and science are so much better in public. She was rejected from AAP this year with all of her scores in the high 120s so we do Mathnasium to ensure she's actually getting an education. The irony is that monthly fees for Mathnasium cost about 50% of her entire Catholic school tuition but that's life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:....

I grew up in an Irish Catholic community. I know a good number of Doctors and Engineers who attended the same school I did. I promise you they did not go to math programs after school. I attended Graduate school and earned a PhD with a math based programs. Three quarters of my classmates where non-Asian and did just fine solving and developing Game Theoretic Models.

No offense, but there are plenty of US born kids attending Engineering and Medical schools who were not taking Algebra at a tutoring center in fifth or sixth grade.

Anecdotally, one of my co-workers is Korean and her kids did go to math programs and Korean school and TJ. None of them are using that STEM in their jobs. My co-worker flat out said the kids didn’t want to go to TJ but they provided incentives so the kids did. All that money, time and effort and her kids are not using those skills.

I asked my co-worker why the emphasized math they way they did and she said that is what everyone in her neighborhood did so that is what she did. She wanted the best for her kids. Her kids had great success in a competitive environment but it wasn’t because they were interested.

I fully get that there are kids who love math and learning, my DH and son are both in that category. We play math games, have robotics stuff at the house, and do summer workbooks. I have asked my son if he wants to take additional math classes and he thought I was crazy. He likes playing at the park, playing sports, building with his blocks/marble runs/legos and other things. He will be just fine.

My sibling took every non-math AP TJ offered, took their easiest math and science tracks, and is now a lawyer. TJ got both of us every job we've ever had. TJ isn't (or at least wasn't) just good for STEM. I hate when people act like it is - I realize science and tech is in the name, but it's good for achievers overall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I don't think the US is terrible. I think FCPS is terrible, largely because they don't have a curriculum or textbook. The classes look to me like the teacher is downloading worksheets from the internet, cobbling together a curriculum the best she can, and using time fillers as stations otherwise. I also don't think the centers model is beneficial to anyone after maybe 2nd grade.

The classes I had back in the 1980s in flyover country were much more rigorous and demanding than what I'm seeing in FCPS AAP.

This is true for DC's class. They have a spiral notebook for math and the first few minutes of every class are spent cutting a worksheet down to size to fit on the notebook paper and gluing it in. They get about 10 mins of direct instruction while they're sitting on a carpet, and some of that time is spent getting everyone to find a spot, be quiet, and listen. They then go back to their tables (they don't have desks) to work on their worksheet. I haven't been able to figure out where the centers come in to play in this chain of events but I know they do them because DD complains kids just mess around. This is 4th grade.

She was previously in Catholic school but the social situation was tough for her/us, it was expensive, and I drank the kool-aid that math and science are so much better in public. She was rejected from AAP this year with all of her scores in the high 120s so we do Mathnasium to ensure she's actually getting an education. The irony is that monthly fees for Mathnasium cost about 50% of her entire Catholic school tuition but that's life.

Op here. This is my concern. There is no textbook. Teacher groups kids by ability. 3rd grade DS apparently Is in the lowest group who doesn’t already know the material. They do small groups. There is this math prodigy computer program that they do in class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

I don't think the US is terrible. I think FCPS is terrible, largely because they don't have a curriculum or textbook. The classes look to me like the teacher is downloading worksheets from the internet, cobbling together a curriculum the best she can, and using time fillers as stations otherwise. I also don't think the centers model is beneficial to anyone after maybe 2nd grade.

The classes I had back in the 1980s in flyover country were much more rigorous and demanding than what I'm seeing in FCPS AAP.

This is true for DC's class. They have a spiral notebook for math and the first few minutes of every class are spent cutting a worksheet down to size to fit on the notebook paper and gluing it in. They get about 10 mins of direct instruction while they're sitting on a carpet, and some of that time is spent getting everyone to find a spot, be quiet, and listen. They then go back to their tables (they don't have desks) to work on their worksheet. I haven't been able to figure out where the centers come in to play in this chain of events but I know they do them because DD complains kids just mess around. This is 4th grade.

She was previously in Catholic school but the social situation was tough for her/us, it was expensive, and I drank the kool-aid that math and science are so much better in public. She was rejected from AAP this year with all of her scores in the high 120s so we do Mathnasium to ensure she's actually getting an education. The irony is that monthly fees for Mathnasium cost about 50% of her entire Catholic school tuition but that's life.

Ten minutes of direct instruction and then time doing a worksheet is math class. Whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not isn't an issue. For all those people lamenting the quality of grade school math, they seem to be forgetting that it is grade school math.

[Anonymous]

Reading this thread reassure me the decision to pull kids out and put them in a private school. My kids were in AAP, 4th and 6th. This was a well regarded center. Teachers mentioned nothing about math differentiation within AAP, and I was completely shocked when my 4th grader asked me to sign him up for Kumon (because he felt stupid sitting next to kids that did Kumon). My 6th grader begged for Sunshine Academy (because many classmates were preparing for TJ and have started outside tutoring since earlier grades). I checked with their teachers, they all said that my kids were doing fine, and yes, they were not in the top math group, but it is OK. They had never mentioned how kids were assessed and grouped.