Math in the US

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Integrated math is usually done very poorly. When I looked at after school programs the best of them like AOPS and RSM do algebra and geometry classes. The worst are integrated math like Kumon and Mathnasium, which are more a random collection of worksheets. I can see how in a class setting integrated math is going to be a sprinkling of everything while barely scratching the surface before moving on to something else.

We prefer the traditional approach and went with AOPS. It’s not only algebra and geometry but other courses as well, number theory, counting and probability, precalculus etc. I don’t see how anyone could do all of them at the same time or why even attempt it. How would that even work? Like a week each of geometry, algebra, number theory, statistics trigonometry, precalculus. The topics would be so spaced out that the poor kids will forget half before getting to the next topic.

Integrated math is one of those educational fads that end up going nowhere.

I don’t know anything about the after school programs but I think it’s odd to call integrated math a fad when the whole point of this thread is that it’s extremely common in other countries, some of whom are known to be much better at teaching math than the US

What countries are you talking about and by what metric are they much better at teaching math?

Just looking at PISA really. Obviously I don’t know the curricula of every country. Poland, Estonia, Netherlands are all countries with very high levels of math education that is integrated. And just anecdotally, the last 2 tech companies I have worked at have huge portions of their software engineer teams based in Poland. Something is being done well in their STEM education

I don’t think PISA is the right way to look at it. There are many ways to measure success. I come from an Eastern European country like the ones you listed and I think the American education is actually quite good because it’s flexible and students have the opportunity to succeed at many points along the way.

Presumably the companies you worked at were American so something must be done right in our STEM education.

I agree about the flexibility of American education but I think that’s a different point to the math one.
And yes, these are American companies with plenty of American employees but the founders and senior tech people are European immigrants and the majority of the engineers are non American.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Integrated math is usually done very poorly. When I looked at after school programs the best of them like AOPS and RSM do algebra and geometry classes. The worst are integrated math like Kumon and Mathnasium, which are more a random collection of worksheets. I can see how in a class setting integrated math is going to be a sprinkling of everything while barely scratching the surface before moving on to something else.

We prefer the traditional approach and went with AOPS. It’s not only algebra and geometry but other courses as well, number theory, counting and probability, precalculus etc. I don’t see how anyone could do all of them at the same time or why even attempt it. How would that even work? Like a week each of geometry, algebra, number theory, statistics trigonometry, precalculus. The topics would be so spaced out that the poor kids will forget half before getting to the next topic.

Integrated math is one of those educational fads that end up going nowhere.

I don’t know anything about the after school programs but I think it’s odd to call integrated math a fad when the whole point of this thread is that it’s extremely common in other countries, some of whom are known to be much better at teaching math than the US

What countries are you talking about and by what metric are they much better at teaching math?

Just looking at PISA really. Obviously I don’t know the curricula of every country. Poland, Estonia, Netherlands are all countries with very high levels of math education that is integrated. And just anecdotally, the last 2 tech companies I have worked at have huge portions of their software engineer teams based in Poland. Something is being done well in their STEM education

I don’t think PISA is the right way to look at it. There are many ways to measure success. I come from an Eastern European country like the ones you listed and I think the American education is actually quite good because it’s flexible and students have the opportunity to succeed at many points along the way.

Presumably the companies you worked at were American so something must be done right in our STEM education.

I agree about the flexibility of American education but I think that’s a different point to the math one.
And yes, these are American companies with plenty of American employees but the founders and senior tech people are European immigrants and the majority of the engineers are non American.

Don’t know the details related to your companies but often it’s immigrants and first generation that make the most of American educational and economic system. I also know smaller companies that recruit in Eastern Europe because technical people are good but also cheaper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Integrated math is usually done very poorly. When I looked at after school programs the best of them like AOPS and RSM do algebra and geometry classes. The worst are integrated math like Kumon and Mathnasium, which are more a random collection of worksheets. I can see how in a class setting integrated math is going to be a sprinkling of everything while barely scratching the surface before moving on to something else.

We prefer the traditional approach and went with AOPS. It’s not only algebra and geometry but other courses as well, number theory, counting and probability, precalculus etc. I don’t see how anyone could do all of them at the same time or why even attempt it. How would that even work? Like a week each of geometry, algebra, number theory, statistics trigonometry, precalculus. The topics would be so spaced out that the poor kids will forget half before getting to the next topic.

Integrated math is one of those educational fads that end up going nowhere.

I don’t know anything about the after school programs but I think it’s odd to call integrated math a fad when the whole point of this thread is that it’s extremely common in other countries, some of whom are known to be much better at teaching math than the US

What countries are you talking about and by what metric are they much better at teaching math?

Just looking at PISA really. Obviously I don’t know the curricula of every country. Poland, Estonia, Netherlands are all countries with very high levels of math education that is integrated. And just anecdotally, the last 2 tech companies I have worked at have huge portions of their software engineer teams based in Poland. Something is being done well in their STEM education

I don’t think PISA is the right way to look at it. There are many ways to measure success. I come from an Eastern European country like the ones you listed and I think the American education is actually quite good because it’s flexible and students have the opportunity to succeed at many points along the way.

Presumably the companies you worked at were American so something must be done right in our STEM education.

I agree about the flexibility of American education but I think that’s a different point to the math one.
And yes, these are American companies with plenty of American employees but the founders and senior tech people are European immigrants and the majority of the engineers are non American.

Don’t know the details related to your companies but often it’s immigrants and first generation that make the most of American educational and economic system. I also know smaller companies that recruit in Eastern Europe because technical people are good but also cheaper.

Both Ericsson and Nokia also opened offices in eastern Europe because good technical people are lower cost yet high quality.

[Anonymous]

My experience interacting with graduate students at two of the HYPSM schools was that American students were brighter, better prepared, had more initiative, much better writing skills (expected) and worked harder than their counterparts coming from top universities in undergrad like Tsinghua (China) or IIT (India). Small number to make an assessment but for the supposed weak math education in US, that doesn’t translate into international students being superior both for grad and undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Integrated math is not that effective for advanced courses. Looking at how Calculus is taught in countries that do well in PISA like Japan, South Korea, China, European countries etc. usually it’s taught over 2-3 years at a slower pace than US AP classes, and they end up covering less material than BC, most of them are equivalent to AP Calculus AB.

Statistics is not as good either, most of these countries cover about half of the AP Statistics course, ie not much of the inferential statistics.

Us math education is actually quite good for the very top students that take AP classes, maybe 5% of the student body, but lags behind by 1-2 grades up to high school.

Since the American education is highly differentiated compared to other countries, PISA rankings are not looking good, but they don’t tell the whole story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My experience interacting with graduate students at two of the HYPSM schools was that American students were brighter, better prepared, had more initiative, much better writing skills (expected) and worked harder than their counterparts coming from top universities in undergrad like Tsinghua (China) or IIT (India). Small number to make an assessment but for the supposed weak math education in US, that doesn’t translate into international students being superior both for grad and undergrad.

IIT is not a single university, it's a very large group of universities, sort of like saying someone went to "the university of California".

UC Merced is a good school, but it's not Berkeley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Integrated math is usually done very poorly. When I looked at after school programs the best of them like AOPS and RSM do algebra and geometry classes. The worst are integrated math like Kumon and Mathnasium, which are more a random collection of worksheets. I can see how in a class setting integrated math is going to be a sprinkling of everything while barely scratching the surface before moving on to something else.

We prefer the traditional approach and went with AOPS. It’s not only algebra and geometry but other courses as well, number theory, counting and probability, precalculus etc. I don’t see how anyone could do all of them at the same time or why even attempt it. How would that even work? Like a week each of geometry, algebra, number theory, statistics trigonometry, precalculus. The topics would be so spaced out that the poor kids will forget half before getting to the next topic.

Integrated math is one of those educational fads that end up going nowhere.

I don’t know anything about the after school programs but I think it’s odd to call integrated math a fad when the whole point of this thread is that it’s extremely common in other countries, some of whom are known to be much better at teaching math than the US

What countries are you talking about and by what metric are they much better at teaching math?

Just looking at PISA really. Obviously I don’t know the curricula of every country. Poland, Estonia, Netherlands are all countries with very high levels of math education that is integrated. And just anecdotally, the last 2 tech companies I have worked at have huge portions of their software engineer teams based in Poland. Something is being done well in their STEM education

I don’t think PISA is the right way to look at it. There are many ways to measure success. I come from an Eastern European country like the ones you listed and I think the American education is actually quite good because it’s flexible and students have the opportunity to succeed at many points along the way.

Presumably the companies you worked at were American so something must be done right in our STEM education.

Agree. Simply looking at success is very MAGA. The real success comes from a deep-dive into how equitable a system is.

On that scale, America is doing quite well!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience interacting with graduate students at two of the HYPSM schools was that American students were brighter, better prepared, had more initiative, much better writing skills (expected) and worked harder than their counterparts coming from top universities in undergrad like Tsinghua (China) or IIT (India). Small number to make an assessment but for the supposed weak math education in US, that doesn’t translate into international students being superior both for grad and undergrad.

IIT is not a single university, it's a very large group of universities, sort of like saying someone went to "the university of California".

UC Merced is a good school, but it's not Berkeley.

It’s still saying something, in the sense that it’s a top 10% university.

The concern about math education in US doesn’t translate in students being poorly prepared for college. If that were the case there would be a huge discrepancy in capability for US vs international college freshmen, which certainly is not the case at top universities.

Since the original post was about integrated math, I haven’t seen compelling evidence that this works better than the traditional teaching sequence in US, on the contrary there is some circumstantial evidence that it works better, at least the way it is currently implemented in US.

The actual issue in US is that for lower grades the curriculum is slower, and that results in kids being 1-2 grades behind other countries by middle school. That’s mitigated by the common practice to accelerate kids in math, by at least a grade if not two, which ends up putting them on track to take AP classes and be on par or above their international peers. For about 70% of students this opportunity is not given, or they are not capable of taking advantage of. It’s not the algebra, geometry, precalculus, calculus course organization.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Integrated math is usually done very poorly. When I looked at after school programs the best of them like AOPS and RSM do algebra and geometry classes. The worst are integrated math like Kumon and Mathnasium, which are more a random collection of worksheets. I can see how in a class setting integrated math is going to be a sprinkling of everything while barely scratching the surface before moving on to something else.

We prefer the traditional approach and went with AOPS. It’s not only algebra and geometry but other courses as well, number theory, counting and probability, precalculus etc. I don’t see how anyone could do all of them at the same time or why even attempt it. How would that even work? Like a week each of geometry, algebra, number theory, statistics trigonometry, precalculus. The topics would be so spaced out that the poor kids will forget half before getting to the next topic.

Integrated math is one of those educational fads that end up going nowhere.

I don’t know anything about the after school programs but I think it’s odd to call integrated math a fad when the whole point of this thread is that it’s extremely common in other countries, some of whom are known to be much better at teaching math than the US

What countries are you talking about and by what metric are they much better at teaching math?

Just looking at PISA really. Obviously I don’t know the curricula of every country. Poland, Estonia, Netherlands are all countries with very high levels of math education that is integrated. And just anecdotally, the last 2 tech companies I have worked at have huge portions of their software engineer teams based in Poland. Something is being done well in their STEM education

I don’t think PISA is the right way to look at it. There are many ways to measure success. I come from an Eastern European country like the ones you listed and I think the American education is actually quite good because it’s flexible and students have the opportunity to succeed at many points along the way.

Presumably the companies you worked at were American so something must be done right in our STEM education.

Agree. Simply looking at success is very MAGA. The real success comes from a deep-dive into how equitable a system is.

On that scale, America is doing quite well!

Success has different measures, not just PISA ranking.

Integrated high school math is not as rigorous compared to algebra-geometry-algebra.

International Baccalaureate which is integrated math is worse than AP Calculus and AP statistics.

Colleges don’t teach integrated math, instead teach by focused topics so it’s clear what course is in the sequence, less chance for repetition or gaps.

Many high school students take dual enrollment classes at community colleges, again not integrated.

The difference is that in integrated math there are more opportunities to review material while traditional courses go deeper and faster, which arguably is better for top students that don’t need as much review.