Anyone else educated by FCPS and sees the decline?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would love to know the graduation rates in fcps per high school over the last 30 years.

Why? They’ve made it easier to graduate in recent years while reducing what’s needed to graduate.

False.

FCPS follows state of VA graduation requirements.

In 1983: students were required to complete 18 "Carnegie credits",

In 1990 they were required to complete 21 Carnegie credits including core requirements of 4 English, 3 Social Studies, 2 Math, 2 Science,

In 2023, they are required to complete 22 Carnegie credits, including core requirements of 4 English, 3 Social Sciences, 3 Math, 3 Lab Science,

So there has been an increased requirement of an additional math course and an additional lab science course to get a HS diploma.

That part might be true, but grades are so unbelievably inflated now that it is far easier to get those credits than it was 20-40 years ago.

I graduated from an FCPS high school in the mid-1990s. Back then:

* we received zeros for unsubmitted assignments (not the 50% of today)
* late work was never accepted (as opposed to the "turn it is whenever you feel like it" approach today)
* there were no retakes of anything ever (unlike the "retake everything" policy today)
* the grading scale was much more rigorous (94-100= A; 90-93= B+, 84-89= B; 80-83= C+, and so on).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would love to know the graduation rates in fcps per high school over the last 30 years.

Why? They’ve made it easier to graduate in recent years while reducing what’s needed to graduate.

This is correct. There are many factors which go into graduation requirements. In addition to standard units of credit, there are also requirements for verified credits, which require passing the associated SOL in order to get course credit. For students entering high school in 2018-19 & beyond, Virginia reduced the number of verified credits needed to get a standard diploma from six to five and reduced the verified credits needed for an advanced diploma from nine to five. This was done as part of a generalized effort to de-emphasize standardized testing and also to allow more students who fail their SOLs to still get credit for the course and be able to count the course toward their graduation requirements. Thus, some kids who might not have graduated given SOL failures, are now able to graduate due to these changes. Virginia also reduced the minimum passing score needed for math SOLs in 2018-19 and reading SOLs in 2019-20. Lots of lowering the bar in recent years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would love to know the graduation rates in fcps per high school over the last 30 years.

Why? They’ve made it easier to graduate in recent years while reducing what’s needed to graduate.

This is correct. There are many factors which go into graduation requirements. In addition to standard units of credit, there are also requirements for verified credits, which require passing the associated SOL in order to get course credit. For students entering high school in 2018-19 & beyond, Virginia reduced the number of verified credits needed to get a standard diploma from six to five and reduced the verified credits needed for an advanced diploma from nine to five. This was done as part of a generalized effort to de-emphasize standardized testing and also to allow more students who fail their SOLs to still get credit for the course and be able to count the course toward their graduation requirements. Thus, some kids who might not have graduated given SOL failures, are now able to graduate due to these changes. Virginia also reduced the minimum passing score needed for math SOLs in 2018-19 and reading SOLs in 2019-20. Lots of lowering the bar in recent years.

That "lowering the bar" followed "raising the bar" too high before. It just returned things back to where they were before.

Also, it's pretty hard to 'lower the reqs" of an AP or IB course which has established external standards, or even math courses which have expected content. Students used to regularly not take Calculus in high school and now they do. Students used to take a handful of APs, now many take 10. There's a greater diversity of students in FCPS--socioeconomically, so wider gaps between the groups, but the top quartile of students have increased in the rigor of their courseload over the past 30 years for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I graduated from FCPS when you only had six classes and no block schedule. Did they lengthen the day for the 7th class? If not, have we not reduced the amount of time spent on core subjects like math and English?

Depending on when you graduated, in HS the number of math and science requirements have gone up (English remained the same). All classes have to meet the units of time required for a Carnegie unit, but they can arrange them differently. I graduated in the early 1990s and it was still unusual then to complete calculus in high school--and many college prep students who were more of a humanities bent only took 2-3 years of math in HS. That would be so rare now! My friend got into a T20 school and only took up to geometry. The requirements really were quite less then. I think the greater emphasis on math/science has led to a lesser emphasis on English/Literature.

Let's look across a two-week window in FCPS to compare:

1980's and before: 10 class meetings across two weeks, 50 minutes per class, for a total of 500 class minutes (same classes every day, no blocks)

Today: 5 class meetings across two weeks, 90 minutes per class, for a total of 450 class minutes (block schedule)

Is this correct? Perhaps the blocks are longer than 90 minutes? If not, I don't see how students are not getting less time in any one class than they were back in the day. Makes sense since there are 7 classes now versus 6 back then and they did not make the day substantially longer (if at all). Adding the extra class for more electives (or mandatory state courses) came at the expense of core subjects, no?

Every high school also seems to have some random extra period where students are not in an actual class (Bruin Time, Spartan Time, etc.). This also takes away time in an actual class, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would love to know the graduation rates in fcps per high school over the last 30 years.

Why? They’ve made it easier to graduate in recent years while reducing what’s needed to graduate.

This is correct. There are many factors which go into graduation requirements. In addition to standard units of credit, there are also requirements for verified credits, which require passing the associated SOL in order to get course credit. For students entering high school in 2018-19 & beyond, Virginia reduced the number of verified credits needed to get a standard diploma from six to five and reduced the verified credits needed for an advanced diploma from nine to five. This was done as part of a generalized effort to de-emphasize standardized testing and also to allow more students who fail their SOLs to still get credit for the course and be able to count the course toward their graduation requirements. Thus, some kids who might not have graduated given SOL failures, are now able to graduate due to these changes. Virginia also reduced the minimum passing score needed for math SOLs in 2018-19 and reading SOLs in 2019-20. Lots of lowering the bar in recent years.

That "lowering the bar" followed "raising the bar" too high before. It just returned things back to where they were before.

Also, it's pretty hard to 'lower the reqs" of an AP or IB course which has established external standards, or even math courses which have expected content. Students used to regularly not take Calculus in high school and now they do. Students used to take a handful of APs, now many take 10. There's a greater diversity of students in FCPS--socioeconomically, so wider gaps between the groups, but the top quartile of students have increased in the rigor of their courseload over the past 30 years for sure.

The higher number of verified credits referenced above were in place for Virginia students entering high school from 2011-12 through 2017-18. You may think these criteria were too high; others would feel they are appropriate. Other examples of watering down are the elimination of midterms and finals in some schools. AP content gets revised as well. Look at the new AP Precalculus whose exam content falls well short of the prior FCPS honors Precalculus course content. I agree with you that kids are taking more AP exams although previously kids did have final exams and standard achievement tests to pass. And as prior PPs have mentioned, letter grade scales for exams have been made more generous too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And also music used to be much better.

And thanks to Kennedy there were very, very few chubby out of shape kids. We all could do push ups and pull ups and run without passing out. The Presidential physical fitness award ceremony was the biggest event of the school year. Wheat from chaff baby!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would love to know the graduation rates in fcps per high school over the last 30 years.

Why? They’ve made it easier to graduate in recent years while reducing what’s needed to graduate.

This is correct. There are many factors which go into graduation requirements. In addition to standard units of credit, there are also requirements for verified credits, which require passing the associated SOL in order to get course credit. For students entering high school in 2018-19 & beyond, Virginia reduced the number of verified credits needed to get a standard diploma from six to five and reduced the verified credits needed for an advanced diploma from nine to five. This was done as part of a generalized effort to de-emphasize standardized testing and also to allow more students who fail their SOLs to still get credit for the course and be able to count the course toward their graduation requirements. Thus, some kids who might not have graduated given SOL failures, are now able to graduate due to these changes. Virginia also reduced the minimum passing score needed for math SOLs in 2018-19 and reading SOLs in 2019-20. Lots of lowering the bar in recent years.

That "lowering the bar" followed "raising the bar" too high before. It just returned things back to where they were before.

Also, it's pretty hard to 'lower the reqs" of an AP or IB course which has established external standards, or even math courses which have expected content. Students used to regularly not take Calculus in high school and now they do. Students used to take a handful of APs, now many take 10. There's a greater diversity of students in FCPS--socioeconomically, so wider gaps between the groups, but the top quartile of students have increased in the rigor of their courseload over the past 30 years for sure.

The prior policy raised the bar too high? The prior policy limited kids' ability to get graduation credits for a course if they failed the associated SOL. Why isn't that a good thing? You think it's better that kids can now get graduation credit even if they fail the associated SOL? We should care about what students know and not be indiscriminately graduating kids irrespective of their skill set. It does students no favors if we graduate them and they haven't learned necessary skills.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I remember book reports and research projects in elementary school. I even remember having to memorize the Emmancipation Proclamation and recite it in front of our class. When I told my kid about that they were stunned. I’m very disappointed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One data point:

My child in Honors 9th grade English at Langley is reading an abridged version of the Odyssey. It’s about 1/3 the length of the original book and the language is simplified.

I read the full book when I was in 9th grade in FCPS and her older cousin also read the full book about 10 years ago in another FCPS high school.

I've heard the reason that middle school classes read excerpts now instead of novels, analyze short passages instead of long ones, is that kids today just don't have the reading ability and stamina that previous children did. When I think of the doorstoppers that I read in grade school and middle school, compared to the books that my bookworm DC reads, I can see that kids today simply cannot read as well as kids used to. The best readers today, compared to the best readers of the past. How do the middling readers compare?

When the DogMan theory of literacy goes wrong. Who needs books, we have laptops for all kids, let technology be the great equalizer now they all can hunt and peck to their hearts content, and work on mind numbing worksheets where they can practice their reading comp skills with one paragraph passages. Laptops and ST math and Lexia for all.

They said “the classics are passé grandma right along with your abacus”. And now Johnny can’t read or count back change, and the ST math penguin has made him manic, and they are about to take away the TikTok. What ever will become of functionality illiterate Johnny and his 3 minute attention span. Will he be able to emoji his way out of the mess?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I remember book reports and research projects in elementary school. I even remember having to memorize the Emmancipation Proclamation and recite it in front of our class. When I told my kid about that they were stunned. I’m very disappointed.

Book reports and research projects ok. Memorizing the emancipation proclamation sounds like a hilarious waste of time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I graduated from FCPS when you only had six classes and no block schedule. Did they lengthen the day for the 7th class? If not, have we not reduced the amount of time spent on core subjects like math and English?

Depending on when you graduated, in HS the number of math and science requirements have gone up (English remained the same). All classes have to meet the units of time required for a Carnegie unit, but they can arrange them differently. I graduated in the early 1990s and it was still unusual then to complete calculus in high school--and many college prep students who were more of a humanities bent only took 2-3 years of math in HS. That would be so rare now! My friend got into a T20 school and only took up to geometry. The requirements really were quite less then. I think the greater emphasis on math/science has led to a lesser emphasis on English/Literature.

Maybe this was the standard but we were all prepped to accomplish more then the standard everyone I know took 4 years science (bio, chem, physics and earth) math (algebra I, trig/II, geometry and at least pre calc) many took calculus. I was a lit person so only took up to precalc, but my brainy friends absolutely all did calc. The only students who didn’t do 4 years math in my order were the vocational kids the rest of us whether you were going or not were prepped for success in college and beyond. This was the 80s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I remember book reports and research projects in elementary school. I even remember having to memorize the Emmancipation Proclamation and recite it in front of our class. When I told my kid about that they were stunned. I’m very disappointed.

Book reports and research projects ok. Memorizing the emancipation proclamation sounds like a hilarious waste of time.

NP I also think book reports are dumb. And pointless nowadays in the age of Cliffnotes and Wikipedia. Writing short paragraphs or essays (depending on grade level) that analyze various aspects of the book - sure

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One data point:

My child in Honors 9th grade English at Langley is reading an abridged version of the Odyssey. It’s about 1/3 the length of the original book and the language is simplified.

I read the full book when I was in 9th grade in FCPS and her older cousin also read the full book about 10 years ago in another FCPS high school.

I've heard the reason that middle school classes read excerpts now instead of novels, analyze short passages instead of long ones, is that kids today just don't have the reading ability and stamina that previous children did. When I think of the doorstoppers that I read in grade school and middle school, compared to the books that my bookworm DC reads, I can see that kids today simply cannot read as well as kids used to. The best readers today, compared to the best readers of the past. How do the middling readers compare?

When the DogMan theory of literacy goes wrong. Who needs books, we have laptops for all kids, let technology be the great equalizer now they all can hunt and peck to their hearts content, and work on mind numbing worksheets where they can practice their reading comp skills with one paragraph passages. Laptops and ST math and Lexia for all.

They said “the classics are passé grandma right along with your abacus”. And now Johnny can’t read or count back change, and the ST math penguin has made him manic, and they are about to take away the TikTok. What ever will become of functionality illiterate Johnny and his 3 minute attention span. Will he be able to emoji his way out of the mess?

I lol’d

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I graduated from FCPS when you only had six classes and no block schedule. Did they lengthen the day for the 7th class? If not, have we not reduced the amount of time spent on core subjects like math and English?

Depending on when you graduated, in HS the number of math and science requirements have gone up (English remained the same). All classes have to meet the units of time required for a Carnegie unit, but they can arrange them differently. I graduated in the early 1990s and it was still unusual then to complete calculus in high school--and many college prep students who were more of a humanities bent only took 2-3 years of math in HS. That would be so rare now! My friend got into a T20 school and only took up to geometry. The requirements really were quite less then. I think the greater emphasis on math/science has led to a lesser emphasis on English/Literature.

Let's look across a two-week window in FCPS to compare:

1980's and before: 10 class meetings across two weeks, 50 minutes per class, for a total of 500 class minutes (same classes every day, no blocks)

Today: 5 class meetings across two weeks, 90 minutes per class, for a total of 450 class minutes (block schedule)

Is this correct? Perhaps the blocks are longer than 90 minutes? If not, I don't see how students are not getting less time in any one class than they were back in the day. Makes sense since there are 7 classes now versus 6 back then and they did not make the day substantially longer (if at all). Adding the extra class for more electives (or mandatory state courses) came at the expense of core subjects, no?

Every high school also seems to have some random extra period where students are not in an actual class (Bruin Time, Spartan Time, etc.). This also takes away time in an actual class, right?

You didn't have study hall in HS? Also, the more class sessions included more state requirements for core classes (3 years each of math and science rather than 2 years each). And with a block schedule less time is spent on passing periods--and sadly lunch times are reduced from earlier years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would love to know the graduation rates in fcps per high school over the last 30 years.

Why? They’ve made it easier to graduate in recent years while reducing what’s needed to graduate.

False.

FCPS follows state of VA graduation requirements.

In 1983: students were required to complete 18 "Carnegie credits",

In 1990 they were required to complete 21 Carnegie credits including core requirements of 4 English, 3 Social Studies, 2 Math, 2 Science,

In 2023, they are required to complete 22 Carnegie credits, including core requirements of 4 English, 3 Social Sciences, 3 Math, 3 Lab Science,

So there has been an increased requirement of an additional math course and an additional lab science course to get a HS diploma.

That part might be true, but grades are so unbelievably inflated now that it is far easier to get those credits than it was 20-40 years ago.

I graduated from an FCPS high school in the mid-1990s. Back then:

* we received zeros for unsubmitted assignments (not the 50% of today)
* late work was never accepted (as opposed to the "turn it is whenever you feel like it" approach today)
* there were no retakes of anything ever (unlike the "retake everything" policy today)
* the grading scale was much more rigorous (94-100= A; 90-93= B+, 84-89= B; 80-83= C+, and so on).

I did too and hated that there was no A minus. It was a dumb system. 92-100 should be some form of an A. Glad that change went through. Also I believe you could drop a bad grade per semester. You could also sometimes turn work in late but like one day late.