Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

Same here. ATN wanted to put some wind under Mencken's wings for the upcoming reckoning about Milwaukee. But presumably we'll hear more about both Milwaukee and the other networks' calls next week.

I don't think Tom will get fired over the call. Look at what happened over at Fox last presidential election, and I wouldn't say ATN's management and owners are better than at Fox. Tom's reputation will take a hit though. They'll probably fire the numbers guy who didn't want to call it.

Did you see the previews for next week? Everyone is blaming Tom.

ATN called it for Mencken in exchange for him to act like he wants it to be fair and go through the courts. So they will throw ATN under the bus.

I missed that in the preview I saw.

But again, look at Fox. It's not like they fired Tucker or Hannity or anybody else for calling FOR Biden, even though that enraged their viewers. The only real consequences were for libeling the counting machines.

So unless ATN has libeled something or someone I can't see how their hands would be forced to do anything they don't want to do.

They'll throw ATN under the bus if ATN isn't profitable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

The point is that to ATN's viewers it's the only call that matters, and much like our own current landscape, actual facts aren't as important as the narrative.

I also found this episode very stressful to watch/a likely glimpse of the future.

+1. ATN laid the groundwork for election theft outrage. To fire Tom would be to say, very clearly, "oops, Mencken didn't win," and that doesn't help Mencken or help ATN retain viewers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tom seemed really surprised about the pregnancy, I think. But I agree an abortion won't happen. Sure, Shiv could probably pay somebody enough to do it, even as far a long as she is. She might even be thinking about an abortion and she told Tom just to be extra cruel to him. But now that he knows, he can stop it, maybe legally (I'm not sure), maybe by telling her family or by threatening to leak to the news that she's having a late-term abortion. And Shiv knows this. So I don't think she would have told Tom unless she was planning to have the baby.

I like Willa more and more. She was supportive of Collin, but she also expressed her reservations about Mencken. At least as much as the spouse-and-former-escort of the least important sibling has any leeway to express reservations.

She wasn't just supportive of him, she was using him as her puppet. She knew that Connor staying in the race would help get a Democrat in the White House and she told him not to drop out (he said she was the only one he was listening to). Even though it cost them over $100 million. How could any far left democrat marry into that family. Total gold digger. I have zero respect for her.

My impression of Willa is that she is simply not that political at all and doesn't care about any of it. She knows some semi-political people who hate Menken because he's a Nazi, but she's always speaking out of self interest (she didn't want to move to Oman, now that Connor for sure is 100% losing, she likes the idea of bouncing around Europe with all their money).

Honestly, I knew lots of young people like this back in 2016. Had never voted before, were maybe vaguely left-leaning based purely on peer group attitudes, but had so little interest in politics that is was really more of a cultural association than an actual political belief. Some of them woke up enough to vote against Trump (or succumbed to the urging of others) but some didn't. Especially if you are in an economically advantaged position, it's very easy to ignore politics, which are "a bummer" to people who are very shallow and self-interested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NPR got it exactly right:

"The tension in Succession has always been that everybody knew these people were terrible, but they were also human. They could be, in some moments, kind or funny or even insightful. They could certainly be legitimately in pain. Still terrible people — but rounded-out human characters with stories and arcs. This episode is the one where I think the fundamental point of the entire enterprise is made: Their complicated humanity is genuine but so what? Sad, jealous, hurt, abused, mistreated, conflicted, they are all these things. But they operate upon the wider world as instruments of destruction in the lives of real people, and in this episode, the magnitude of that destruction is pushed right up to the front edge of the stage."

Yes to all of this -- I can tell it's Linda Holmes without checking and she nails it.

Waiting for the posters who want to tell us all that the show "isn't that deep!" and that it's still fun to pick one of these grotesque humans and root for them to win. Or the poster who though Roman would make a fun dinner guest.

It's all fun and games until the little billionaire sociopaths destroy democracy and get a bunch of people killed. And even then, it's still a game to them.

Why do you even watch if you hate the show and everybody in it so much?

I love the show. I'm not a simpleton who needs all the characters in a story to be likable or sympathetic in order to get something out of the story itself.

Who exactly do you LIKE on the show, and why? I don't mean who do you find funny (I think they can all be quite funny) or whose story you are interested in (I find the story fascinating), I mean who do you actually like as in "I think this is a cool person and I would be friends with them in real life"?

Since you're lecturing me now. You're either making this up or reading far more into peoples' posts here than they're actually saying. I don't think anybody here actually *likes* or "would be friends with" ANY of them, except for maybe Willa and Tom, and even Tom dropped off the "like" list when he revealed his bad side. Nobody, but nobody, here has said they want to "friends" with Shiv or Roman or Kendall or Collin. Sure, one poster thought Roman would be fun to have over to dinner, but even that was because he's amusing to listen to, not because "I want to be BFFs with Roman."

It's a lesser of multiple evils thing, can you see that?

You don't seem to understand the difference between rooting for a character vs. actually "liking" them or "wanting to be friends" with them.

Which makes it strange that you keep coming on to lecture us all about fangirling the characters. I think I'll ignore you from now on.

The only person lecturing is you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Roman would make a terrible dinner guest, FTR.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

Same here. ATN wanted to put some wind under Mencken's wings for the upcoming reckoning about Milwaukee. But presumably we'll hear more about both Milwaukee and the other networks' calls next week.

I don't think Tom will get fired over the call. Look at what happened over at Fox last presidential election, and I wouldn't say ATN's management and owners are better than at Fox. Tom's reputation will take a hit though. They'll probably fire the numbers guy who didn't want to call it.

Did you see the previews for next week? Everyone is blaming Tom.

ATN called it for Mencken in exchange for him to act like he wants it to be fair and go through the courts. So they will throw ATN under the bus.

What preview are you talking about? The one after the episode was all about the funeral. I don’t think Tom was even in the preview.

Sorry, it was the last scene in the episode. Greg says "your phone is red hot" and Tom is watching other networks say Tom was in the wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NPR got it exactly right:

"The tension in Succession has always been that everybody knew these people were terrible, but they were also human. They could be, in some moments, kind or funny or even insightful. They could certainly be legitimately in pain. Still terrible people — but rounded-out human characters with stories and arcs. This episode is the one where I think the fundamental point of the entire enterprise is made: Their complicated humanity is genuine but so what? Sad, jealous, hurt, abused, mistreated, conflicted, they are all these things. But they operate upon the wider world as instruments of destruction in the lives of real people, and in this episode, the magnitude of that destruction is pushed right up to the front edge of the stage."

Yes to all of this -- I can tell it's Linda Holmes without checking and she nails it.

Waiting for the posters who want to tell us all that the show "isn't that deep!" and that it's still fun to pick one of these grotesque humans and root for them to win. Or the poster who though Roman would make a fun dinner guest.

It's all fun and games until the little billionaire sociopaths destroy democracy and get a bunch of people killed. And even then, it's still a game to them.

I found myself thoroughly dismayed at Roman being such an incredible weasel. I like Roman even if he was sort of a jerk. Holmes' recap is so good. Here's the link to it:

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/14/1175751402/succession-season-4-episode-8-america-decides

I was waiting for something truly terrible to happen in this episode - like a bomb or the equivalent - but realized as it went on that the portrayal of realities likely to occur (or that have occurred) was the bomb. Just a really disheartening episode as every person who could have done the right thing just didn't.

Highlight moments for me were Shiv breaking the news of her pregnancy to Tom when he's in the biggest pressure cooker moment of his entire career and him doubting and disbelieving her, and her shock at that. She's like the boy who cried wolf.

And when Greg gives Shiv that little shrug after he's ratted her out to Kendall, demonstrating that he's very much in the game and always has been.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

Same here. ATN wanted to put some wind under Mencken's wings for the upcoming reckoning about Milwaukee. But presumably we'll hear more about both Milwaukee and the other networks' calls next week.

I don't think Tom will get fired over the call. Look at what happened over at Fox last presidential election, and I wouldn't say ATN's management and owners are better than at Fox. Tom's reputation will take a hit though. They'll probably fire the numbers guy who didn't want to call it.

Did you see the previews for next week? Everyone is blaming Tom.

ATN called it for Mencken in exchange for him to act like he wants it to be fair and go through the courts. So they will throw ATN under the bus.

ATN called it for Mencken because Roman cut a deal with him to block the sale of Waystar to GoJo. It had nothing to do with the election being decided by the courts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NPR got it exactly right:

"The tension in Succession has always been that everybody knew these people were terrible, but they were also human. They could be, in some moments, kind or funny or even insightful. They could certainly be legitimately in pain. Still terrible people — but rounded-out human characters with stories and arcs. This episode is the one where I think the fundamental point of the entire enterprise is made: Their complicated humanity is genuine but so what? Sad, jealous, hurt, abused, mistreated, conflicted, they are all these things. But they operate upon the wider world as instruments of destruction in the lives of real people, and in this episode, the magnitude of that destruction is pushed right up to the front edge of the stage."

Yes to all of this -- I can tell it's Linda Holmes without checking and she nails it.

Waiting for the posters who want to tell us all that the show "isn't that deep!" and that it's still fun to pick one of these grotesque humans and root for them to win. Or the poster who though Roman would make a fun dinner guest.

It's all fun and games until the little billionaire sociopaths destroy democracy and get a bunch of people killed. And even then, it's still a game to them.

I found myself thoroughly dismayed at Roman being such an incredible weasel. I like Roman even if he was sort of a jerk. Holmes' recap is so good. Here's the link to it:

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/14/1175751402/succession-season-4-episode-8-america-decides

I was waiting for something truly terrible to happen in this episode - like a bomb or the equivalent - but realized as it went on that the portrayal of realities likely to occur (or that have occurred) was the bomb. Just a really disheartening episode as every person who could have done the right thing just didn't.

Highlight moments for me were Shiv breaking the news of her pregnancy to Tom when he's in the biggest pressure cooker moment of his entire career and him doubting and disbelieving her, and her shock at that. She's like the boy who cried wolf.

And when Greg gives Shiv that little shrug after he's ratted her out to Kendall, demonstrating that he's very much in the game and always has been.

Regarding Greg, that conversation he had with Matsson in the last episode about how he's good at firing people because he can act like he cares but he doesn't really was a good reflection of where Greg's character now is. He's always been a person with very little integrity or character -- easily swayed by others and mostly acting with the goal of being liked. Put someone like that around the Roy siblings and Tom for a few years and that's what you wind up with -- someone who is good at playing the sycophant but doesn't actually care about anything.

Also, something I kept having to remind myself about Tom throughout the episode was that he was doing coke. Not a defense of him, but it colors how I perceive his interactions with Shiv, as well as the decisions he made regarding the election calls. Even if he just did the one bump earlier in the night, he was also very sleep deprived and stressed. For some of this stuff he was likely still in the euphoric stage of the coke and later he'd experience an especially harsh bottoming out because of the sleep deprivation and stress.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

Same here. ATN wanted to put some wind under Mencken's wings for the upcoming reckoning about Milwaukee. But presumably we'll hear more about both Milwaukee and the other networks' calls next week.

I don't think Tom will get fired over the call. Look at what happened over at Fox last presidential election, and I wouldn't say ATN's management and owners are better than at Fox. Tom's reputation will take a hit though. They'll probably fire the numbers guy who didn't want to call it.

Did you see the previews for next week? Everyone is blaming Tom.

ATN called it for Mencken in exchange for him to act like he wants it to be fair and go through the courts. So they will throw ATN under the bus.

What preview are you talking about? The one after the episode was all about the funeral. I don’t think Tom was even in the preview.

Sorry, it was the last scene in the episode. Greg says "your phone is red hot" and Tom is watching other networks say Tom was in the wrong.

Because Tom is in the wrong. But I can't see clear consequences for Tom one way or the other. We only have a few days before the end of the season, but if they fire Tom before this plays out in the courts over 1-2 years, then they're admitting Mencken actually lost, and they don't want to do that.

I'm still betting they'll throw the numbers guy under the bus and that will be the end of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

Same here. ATN wanted to put some wind under Mencken's wings for the upcoming reckoning about Milwaukee. But presumably we'll hear more about both Milwaukee and the other networks' calls next week.

I don't think Tom will get fired over the call. Look at what happened over at Fox last presidential election, and I wouldn't say ATN's management and owners are better than at Fox. Tom's reputation will take a hit though. They'll probably fire the numbers guy who didn't want to call it.

Did you see the previews for next week? Everyone is blaming Tom.

ATN called it for Mencken in exchange for him to act like he wants it to be fair and go through the courts. So they will throw ATN under the bus.

What preview are you talking about? The one after the episode was all about the funeral. I don’t think Tom was even in the preview.

Sorry, it was the last scene in the episode. Greg says "your phone is red hot" and Tom is watching other networks say Tom was in the wrong.

I think Tom will be squarely thrown under the bus here. I don't think the show ends with us knowing Tom's fate at ATN, but likely knowing that Tom has been ousted from the Roy inner circle. The other possibility is that Tom more or less blackmails the Roys/Shiv to keep his spot. I think it's 50/50. I don't think we see much more in detail about the election because the outcome doesn't matter to any of them other than they have Mencken who will torpedo their deal.

I don't have a read on what happens at the end. This episode had several interesting turns as far as who might seize power at Waystar - Roman being ruthless and focused in a way we haven't really seen before. Greg betraying Shiv. Shiv floundering, totally out of her depth. Tom also floundering. Kendall mumbling like a big pile of mush while he tries to claw back a semblance of family life.

The preview for next week has Roman practicing a speech where he clearly intends to claim his father's legacy as his own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NPR got it exactly right:

"The tension in Succession has always been that everybody knew these people were terrible, but they were also human. They could be, in some moments, kind or funny or even insightful. They could certainly be legitimately in pain. Still terrible people — but rounded-out human characters with stories and arcs. This episode is the one where I think the fundamental point of the entire enterprise is made: Their complicated humanity is genuine but so what? Sad, jealous, hurt, abused, mistreated, conflicted, they are all these things. But they operate upon the wider world as instruments of destruction in the lives of real people, and in this episode, the magnitude of that destruction is pushed right up to the front edge of the stage."

Yes to all of this -- I can tell it's Linda Holmes without checking and she nails it.

Waiting for the posters who want to tell us all that the show "isn't that deep!" and that it's still fun to pick one of these grotesque humans and root for them to win. Or the poster who though Roman would make a fun dinner guest.

It's all fun and games until the little billionaire sociopaths destroy democracy and get a bunch of people killed. And even then, it's still a game to them.

Why do you even watch if you hate the show and everybody in it so much?

I love the show. I'm not a simpleton who needs all the characters in a story to be likable or sympathetic in order to get something out of the story itself.

Who exactly do you LIKE on the show, and why? I don't mean who do you find funny (I think they can all be quite funny) or whose story you are interested in (I find the story fascinating), I mean who do you actually like as in "I think this is a cool person and I would be friends with them in real life"?

Since you're lecturing me now. You're either making this up or reading far more into peoples' posts here than they're actually saying. I don't think anybody here actually *likes* or "would be friends with" ANY of them, except for maybe Willa and Tom, and even Tom dropped off the "like" list when he revealed his bad side. Nobody, but nobody, here has said they want to "friends" with Shiv or Roman or Kendall or Collin. Sure, one poster thought Roman would be fun to have over to dinner, but even that was because he's amusing to listen to, not because "I want to be BFFs with Roman."

It's a lesser of multiple evils thing, can you see that?

You don't seem to understand the difference between rooting for a character vs. actually "liking" them or "wanting to be friends" with them.

Which makes it strange that you keep coming on to lecture us all about fangirling the characters. I think I'll ignore you from now on.

The only person lecturing is you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Roman would make a terrible dinner guest, FTR.

Agree that Roman would make an obnoxious dinner guest.

But you can't lob your "Waiting for the posters who want to tell us all that the show "isn't that deep!" and that it's still fun to pick one of these grotesque humans and root for them to win" and pretend you're not up on your high horse again. You seem to think you're the only one who understands the whole point of the show is that these billionaires are screwing the little people. But we all get it.

[Anonymous]

Anybody else catch that there may be some sort of twist with Alaska? They mentioned that it was the last numbers to report (and still hadn't reported at the end of the episode) and it's there that Connor actually had some votes......

[Anonymous]

They can't leave the GoJo deal and Waystar's fate hanging. If the show ends in two days but the Mencken election is winding its way through the courts, they'll have to find another way to wrap up the GoJo plotline. I don't know what that would look like, but Waystar and GoJo have financial dirt on each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anybody else catch that there may be some sort of twist with Alaska? They mentioned that it was the last numbers to report (and still hadn't reported at the end of the episode) and it's there that Connor actually had some votes......

The show didn't spend a lot of time talking about electoral college votes, but Alaska doesn't have all that many.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anybody else catch that there may be some sort of twist with Alaska? They mentioned that it was the last numbers to report (and still hadn't reported at the end of the episode) and it's there that Connor actually had some votes......

The show didn't spend a lot of time talking about electoral college votes, but Alaska doesn't have all that many.

I think it was Mencken 272 vs Jimenez 263 without Alaska being called, so Alaska wouldn't make a difference.