Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If Tom didn’t father Shiv’s baby, who did? They can’t spring a new baby daddy character on us in the last few episodes, can they?

No, it's def Tom. Why Shiv kept looking at him and suddenly felt ambivalent about their relationship, even giving it one final go.

The show runners have confirmed in a podcast that Tom is the father. For sure for sure, no more speculation.

I think that fight makes it slightly more likely that Shiv will terminate the pregnancy because right now her choices are awful. She can try to stick it out with Tom, knowing that he believe what he said about her and also knowing that he would probably stick it out anyway just to stay in proximity to the money and power. Or she can divorce him knowing that he will have parental rights and she will have to pay him probably a huge amount in child support (in divorces like this, child support can be massive because there is an expectation that the kids have some consistency in their lives between the rich parent and the not-rich parents, which means the rich parent forks over a lot of money for housing, tutoring, activities, private schools, etc. in order to make up for the difference in resources) plus they would be in each others lives for ever.

Shiv is in her 5th or 6th month, isn’t she? I’m guessing the super-rich can always pay someone to take care of it, but still it seems like a long-shot.

Neither Shiv nor Tom would make a great parent, but Tom might be marginally better.

How on earth can Tom NOT know that she’s pregnant? She looks different and they were sleeping together. You’d think he would have noticed or suspected.

Why isn’t she telling him??????

Full confession - I have become a little obsessed with this show.

I re-watched this episode and I think Tom knows she's pregnant. During their fight when he says he doesn't think she would be a very good mother the camera zooms in on Shiv and you can tell that really hit her lunch a punch in the gut, but her reaction is a weak, "Well, that's not a very nice thing to say, is it?" I'm not trying to go down a Lost type rabbit hole here, but if you cut out that part of the fight it's at a very different pace/level than the rest. Tom makes a big pause before he says that, and then Shiv has this very weak reaction - she doesn't attack Tom, she just kind of folds. And then they move on. Call me crazy, but this was a vicious fight and when Tom says that it's a perfect opening for Shiv to go for the jugular and really insult him where he's vulnerable, and she just doesn't.

^^ "like a punch in the gut," not lunch - LOL.

I more or less agree. He can't NOT know. I think he said that as a really low blow.

The way he paused and considered before he said it- I agree, I think he suspects, and said it to be a very low blow to her. He definitely has that side of him- to be incredibly cruel while maintaining plausible deniability about how cruel he is being.

He's certainly not any crueler than Shiv is.

I never argued that he was?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

I also couldn’t understand if the number of burned/missing ballots in Wisconsin were enough to make a difference even if all of them were democrat votes. If all of them had been democrat voted would it have changed Wisconsin’s overall vote? That wasn’t clear to me. Maybe ATN’s call of Wisconsin didn’t matter because the votes wouldn’t have affected the outcome.

Can anyone clarify?

Not sure, but they did say that they were absentee ballots from Milwaukee, which, is a heavily democratic area

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

I also couldn’t understand if the number of burned/missing ballots in Wisconsin were enough to make a difference even if all of them were democrat votes. If all of them had been democrat voted would it have changed Wisconsin’s overall vote? That wasn’t clear to me. Maybe ATN’s call of Wisconsin didn’t matter because the votes wouldn’t have affected the outcome.

Can anyone clarify?

Not sure, but they did say that they were absentee ballots from Milwaukee, which, is a heavily democratic area

PP here. Yes I know. They said about 100,000 ballots were missing/destroyed and it is assumed because they’re from Milwaukee which historically voted overwhelmingly Democratic that they’re mainly democrat votes. So assuming all 100,000 are votes for Jimenez, does that win Wisconsin for him or does the other douche have a lead over 100,000 so it doesn’t matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so traumatized by tonight’s episode (Election Night).

Same! I could not sleep well afterwards. Loved the wasabi la croix scene, I will really miss this show.

It was lemony.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor Tom

Tom will bounce back. Maybe he doesn’t have love, but he can spill the beans about so much that his financial position is secure whether it’s inside or outside ATN. He knows Shiv’s been negotiating with Mattson, he knows about the ship scandal, and he knows what Kendall did to the Living+ forecasts.

And will he have a role if Shiv has her child? Such as sharing custody or full custody. Because let’s face it, everybody is right about Shiv, just like Kendall she’s too damaged to be a great parent. That is, if Shiv is actually carrying Tom’s child and there’s no big reveal about the father.

Shiv is going to go through with the abortion that I had posited she was contemplating (a few weeks ago). Especially after what Tom said about her being a terrible (hypothetical) mother. She knows this is true. Mark it.

You need to give up on this weird imaginary abortion plot line

Agreed. She's too far along, and she's told Tom. Abortion's not gonna happen at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

I also couldn’t understand if the number of burned/missing ballots in Wisconsin were enough to make a difference even if all of them were democrat votes. If all of them had been democrat voted would it have changed Wisconsin’s overall vote? That wasn’t clear to me. Maybe ATN’s call of Wisconsin didn’t matter because the votes wouldn’t have affected the outcome.

Can anyone clarify?

Not sure, but they did say that they were absentee ballots from Milwaukee, which, is a heavily democratic area

PP here. Yes I know. They said about 100,000 ballots were missing/destroyed and it is assumed because they’re from Milwaukee which historically voted overwhelmingly Democratic that they’re mainly democrat votes. So assuming all 100,000 are votes for Jimenez, does that win Wisconsin for him or does the other douche have a lead over 100,000 so it doesn’t matter.

This was really bugging me so the nerd that I rewatched that scene and paused and I believe the numbers are 1,653,744 for Jimenez and 1,689,213 for Mencken which definitely is less than 100,000 so the missing ballots absolutely make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Tom didn’t father Shiv’s baby, who did? They can’t spring a new baby daddy character on us in the last few episodes, can they?

No, it's def Tom. Why Shiv kept looking at him and suddenly felt ambivalent about their relationship, even giving it one final go.

The show runners have confirmed in a podcast that Tom is the father. For sure for sure, no more speculation.

I think that fight makes it slightly more likely that Shiv will terminate the pregnancy because right now her choices are awful. She can try to stick it out with Tom, knowing that he believe what he said about her and also knowing that he would probably stick it out anyway just to stay in proximity to the money and power. Or she can divorce him knowing that he will have parental rights and she will have to pay him probably a huge amount in child support (in divorces like this, child support can be massive because there is an expectation that the kids have some consistency in their lives between the rich parent and the not-rich parents, which means the rich parent forks over a lot of money for housing, tutoring, activities, private schools, etc. in order to make up for the difference in resources) plus they would be in each others lives for ever.

Shiv is in her 5th or 6th month, isn’t she? I’m guessing the super-rich can always pay someone to take care of it, but still it seems like a long-shot.

Neither Shiv nor Tom would make a great parent, but Tom might be marginally better.

How on earth can Tom NOT know that she’s pregnant? She looks different and they were sleeping together. You’d think he would have noticed or suspected.

Why isn’t she telling him??????

Full confession - I have become a little obsessed with this show.

I re-watched this episode and I think Tom knows she's pregnant. During their fight when he says he doesn't think she would be a very good mother the camera zooms in on Shiv and you can tell that really hit her lunch a punch in the gut, but her reaction is a weak, "Well, that's not a very nice thing to say, is it?" I'm not trying to go down a Lost type rabbit hole here, but if you cut out that part of the fight it's at a very different pace/level than the rest. Tom makes a big pause before he says that, and then Shiv has this very weak reaction - she doesn't attack Tom, she just kind of folds. And then they move on. Call me crazy, but this was a vicious fight and when Tom says that it's a perfect opening for Shiv to go for the jugular and really insult him where he's vulnerable, and she just doesn't.

^^ "like a punch in the gut," not lunch - LOL.

I more or less agree. He can't NOT know. I think he said that as a really low blow.

The way he paused and considered before he said it- I agree, I think he suspects, and said it to be a very low blow to her. He definitely has that side of him- to be incredibly cruel while maintaining plausible deniability about how cruel he is being.

This is a very insightful point about Tom. I also think his cruelty comes from being pretty intelligent and a good observer of other people, but he rarely gets to actually express these observations in this world because he knows he's an outsider and has to suck up to everyone, including his wife. It's why he's so cruel to Greg and sometimes to other underlings at Waystar (on the rare occasion we seem him interact with them). It's his chance to let his wit, which is naturally critical and cruel, come out.

Tom is Jared Kushner

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

I also couldn’t understand if the number of burned/missing ballots in Wisconsin were enough to make a difference even if all of them were democrat votes. If all of them had been democrat voted would it have changed Wisconsin’s overall vote? That wasn’t clear to me. Maybe ATN’s call of Wisconsin didn’t matter because the votes wouldn’t have affected the outcome.

Can anyone clarify?

It's not that complicated. Yes, we should assume that if the burned votes were counted, Wisconsin would go to the Dems and the Dems would win the election. It's not that ATN's call is the only one that counts, but it gives Menken some momentum going into a long, nasty court battle over what should be done about the missing ballots. The other networks have not made a call yet on Wisconsin or the presidency. If the Rs can succeed in not getting a revote in Wisconsin, then Menken will win, and if they can't, then presumably Jimenez will win and ATN will look ridiculous.

Much like Fox News got the crazies riled up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

I also couldn’t understand if the number of burned/missing ballots in Wisconsin were enough to make a difference even if all of them were democrat votes. If all of them had been democrat voted would it have changed Wisconsin’s overall vote? That wasn’t clear to me. Maybe ATN’s call of Wisconsin didn’t matter because the votes wouldn’t have affected the outcome.

Can anyone clarify?

It's not that complicated. Yes, we should assume that if the burned votes were counted, Wisconsin would go to the Dems and the Dems would win the election. It's not that ATN's call is the only one that counts, but it gives Menken some momentum going into a long, nasty court battle over what should be done about the missing ballots. The other networks have not made a call yet on Wisconsin or the presidency. If the Rs can succeed in not getting a revote in Wisconsin, then Menken will win, and if they can't, then presumably Jimenez will win and ATN will look ridiculous.

Much like Fox News got the crazies riled up.

Agree, think about how much influence Tucker Carlson had in making America believe the election was stolen in 2020.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor Tom

Tom will bounce back. Maybe he doesn’t have love, but he can spill the beans about so much that his financial position is secure whether it’s inside or outside ATN. He knows Shiv’s been negotiating with Mattson, he knows about the ship scandal, and he knows what Kendall did to the Living+ forecasts.

And will he have a role if Shiv has her child? Such as sharing custody or full custody. Because let’s face it, everybody is right about Shiv, just like Kendall she’s too damaged to be a great parent. That is, if Shiv is actually carrying Tom’s child and there’s no big reveal about the father.

Shiv is going to go through with the abortion that I had posited she was contemplating (a few weeks ago). Especially after what Tom said about her being a terrible (hypothetical) mother. She knows this is true. Mark it.

You need to give up on this weird imaginary abortion plot line

Agreed. She's too far along, and she's told Tom. Abortion's not gonna happen at this point.

I can't believe how many pages were wasted on discussing whether Shiv will have an abortion. American TV doesn't have abortion, it's a death sentence. I'm also upset that she hasn't told her brothers and also that they haven't figured it out.

[Anonymous]

Last night was Greg's greatest episode. Nearly every funny line was from his mouth. When he was trying to get his cousin's off the ATN floor was hilarious. A few funny lines also came from Connor. What is Willa's angle by encouraging him to stay in the election? Is she a democrat and wanted Jimenez to win?

This episode triggered my 2016 PTSD. Tom deserves to be fired. It's supposed to be his call and he made the wrong one by listening to the CEOs instead of doing what was best for ATN and himself. He is going to be dragged through the mud next week.

Next week is the funeral, so what will the final episode be???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Last night was Greg's greatest episode. Nearly every funny line was from his mouth. When he was trying to get his cousin's off the ATN floor was hilarious. A few funny lines also came from Connor. What is Willa's angle by encouraging him to stay in the election? Is she a democrat and wanted Jimenez to win?

This episode triggered my 2016 PTSD. Tom deserves to be fired. It's supposed to be his call and he made the wrong one by listening to the CEOs instead of doing what was best for ATN and himself. He is going to be dragged through the mud next week.

Next week is the funeral, so what will the final episode be???

Wondering if this will be a board meeting where they appoint the successor?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NPR got it exactly right:

"The tension in Succession has always been that everybody knew these people were terrible, but they were also human. They could be, in some moments, kind or funny or even insightful. They could certainly be legitimately in pain. Still terrible people — but rounded-out human characters with stories and arcs. This episode is the one where I think the fundamental point of the entire enterprise is made: Their complicated humanity is genuine but so what? Sad, jealous, hurt, abused, mistreated, conflicted, they are all these things. But they operate upon the wider world as instruments of destruction in the lives of real people, and in this episode, the magnitude of that destruction is pushed right up to the front edge of the stage."

Yes to all of this -- I can tell it's Linda Holmes without checking and she nails it.

Waiting for the posters who want to tell us all that the show "isn't that deep!" and that it's still fun to pick one of these grotesque humans and root for them to win. Or the poster who though Roman would make a fun dinner guest.

It's all fun and games until the little billionaire sociopaths destroy democracy and get a bunch of people killed. And even then, it's still a game to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

I also couldn’t understand if the number of burned/missing ballots in Wisconsin were enough to make a difference even if all of them were democrat votes. If all of them had been democrat voted would it have changed Wisconsin’s overall vote? That wasn’t clear to me. Maybe ATN’s call of Wisconsin didn’t matter because the votes wouldn’t have affected the outcome.

Can anyone clarify?

Democratic. It's democratic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we supposed to assume that ATNs call on the election is the only one that matters? There are presumably other networks. This was a stumbling block for me last night.

I also couldn’t understand if the number of burned/missing ballots in Wisconsin were enough to make a difference even if all of them were democrat votes. If all of them had been democrat voted would it have changed Wisconsin’s overall vote? That wasn’t clear to me. Maybe ATN’s call of Wisconsin didn’t matter because the votes wouldn’t have affected the outcome.

Can anyone clarify?

It's not that complicated. Yes, we should assume that if the burned votes were counted, Wisconsin would go to the Dems and the Dems would win the election. It's not that ATN's call is the only one that counts, but it gives Menken some momentum going into a long, nasty court battle over what should be done about the missing ballots. The other networks have not made a call yet on Wisconsin or the presidency. If the Rs can succeed in not getting a revote in Wisconsin, then Menken will win, and if they can't, then presumably Jimenez will win and ATN will look ridiculous.

Much like Fox News got the crazies riled up.

Agree, think about how much influence Tucker Carlson had in making America believe the election was stolen in 2020.

And Hannity.