Are Terra Nova Tests "bubble tests"?

[Anonymous]

I am asking becaue I recently got my childs scores back. She did quite well with many 99% and all 95 and above except for adding whole numbers which was in the 70's..(with subtracting whole numbers 99%). I am guessing she could have been off a line in her answers if they were bubble tests? Thak goodness for anonyminity on this board as I couldn't ask this question elsewhere..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am asking becaue I recently got my childs scores back. She did quite well with many 99% and all 95 and above except for adding whole numbers which was in the 70's..(with subtracting whole numbers 99%). I am guessing she could have been off a line in her answers if they were bubble tests? Thak goodness for anonyminity on this board as I couldn't ask this question elsewhere..

Under FERPA, you have the right to ask the school to see the bubble sheet (and the test booklet if it has her name on it.) You might not be able to have a copy, but at the least you have the right to come in and see it.

You don't need to have a reason why, just make the request.

[Anonymous]

Pretty sure you can't see the test. They're kept under lock and key and anyone who sees it, teachers included, have to sign non disclosure agreements. Also, they're sent away for scoring so the school doesn't retain copies. In any case, yes, the TN2 is a bubble test and the kids bubble in the answers directly in the test book.

[Anonymous]

So if the kids answer directly in the booklet, being off a line is unlikely since I assume the bubbles are under each question?

[Anonymous]

OP< I don't know about the official rules, but in my opinion, this is a perfect question for you to ask of the school's testing coordinator. That might be an assistant principal or a guidance counsellor, usually.

There's no need whatsoever to be embarassed by this question, and IMO no need for anonymity.

You are looking at some test scores that just don't make sense to you. How did a child who scored 99% on subtraction only score 70% on addition?

You and the teacher are supposed to look at test scores and use them to help your child improve. If that score is some kind of fluke, it'd be nice to know it. Otherwise, you'd spend all summer reviewing addition facts -- for no reason!

You can also write a note to your child's classroom teacher cc'ing the principal or test coordinator -- and just ask in a nice, non threatening way -- does this discreprancy in addition/subtraction scores play out in the math classroom? Your child's teacher has been teaching math to her all year -- has she noticed any difficulty in addition compared to subtraction? If so -- what can she suggest you do to help? The teacher or princial or test coordinator should look into the discreprancy and see if they can figure out either what happened, or how to help your child!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pretty sure you can't see the test. They're kept under lock and key and anyone who sees it, teachers included, have to sign non disclosure agreements. Also, they're sent away for scoring so the school doesn't retain copies. In any case, yes, the TN2 is a bubble test and the kids bubble in the answers directly in the test book.

"Sent away for scoring" ? What does that mean? Where are they "sent"? Some central office in MCPS? Sent away to an outside vendor?

[Anonymous]

What grade is she in? Up until at least 3rd grade (maybe higher, I've only administered the TN through 3rd grade) the kids bubble right in the test book. The bubbles are under the questions, so you can't "line it up" wrong.

In addition, if she is in an upper grade, lining it up wrong wouldn't result in a 70, it would result in a much lower score. It's important to note that the scores you're talking about are percentages (e.g. the number right over the total number) they are percentiles which means that she scored better than 70% of the kids. It may be that 70 is the highest score on that section -- that at her grade level 30% of the kids got a perfect score in adding whole numbers, or that she made one or two careless errors, which dropped her down to the 70th.

As far as sending them off -- the TN tests are sent back to the company to be run through their computers and scored. They are kept for a while in case there are allegations of cheating etc . . . but eventually they are destroyed. You wouldn't be able to see them, because they are no longer in Maryland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What grade is she in? Up until at least 3rd grade (maybe higher, I've only administered the TN through 3rd grade) the kids bubble right in the test book. The bubbles are under the questions, so you can't "line it up" wrong.



As far as sending them off -- the TN tests are sent back to the company to be run through their computers and scored. They are kept for a while in case there are allegations of cheating etc . . . but eventually they are destroyed. You wouldn't be able to see them, because they are no longer in Maryland.

1) Under FERPA, if your kid's name is on it (or a number associated with your child), it is a "school record" and thus subject to FERPA and must be made available to you to review (that means by copy or by making it available to you at a reasonably close location to look at). If your child's name is on a test booklet which he/she put the answers on, then it is a "record" that must be made available to you to review. If your child's name is not on the test booklet, but only on a bubble answer sheet, then the school might still be required to provide you access to the test in order "reasonable request for interpretation" of the bubble sheet.

2) Under FERPA, the fact that the test booklet has been moved out of state wouldn't except it from the requirement to produce it ... otherwise all school systems could evade FERPA by simply keeping their records in a centralized out of state location.

See http://www.fetaweb.com/04/ferpa.rooker.ltr.protocols.htm

Test security is not an absolute. A parent has rights to review their students educational records so that they can correct mistakes or understand the reason for a child's performance.

[Anonymous]

OP again..thanks for all the info. She is only in 2nd grade..I don't think her future is at stake here so I don't plan to persue the issue..only wondering. She is working several years ahead in math so I am confident in her addition skills..but as someone pointed out if there are not too many questions..she could have made some carelless errors..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again..thanks for all the info. She is only in 2nd grade..I don't think her future is at stake here so I don't plan to persue the issue..only wondering. She is working several years ahead in math so I am confident in her addition skills..but as someone pointed out if there are not too many questions..she could have made some carelless errors..

OP, that's a big red flag to me -- and I'm an elementary school teacher.

A child who is working 2 years ahead in math should NOT be scoring in the 70th percentile on a grade level math test of basic addition skills. She should be scoring above the 95th percentile, at a minimum.

Is your child in MCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again..thanks for all the info. She is only in 2nd grade..I don't think her future is at stake here so I don't plan to persue the issue..only wondering. She is working several years ahead in math so I am confident in her addition skills..but as someone pointed out if there are not too many questions..she could have made some carelless errors..

OP, that's a big red flag to me -- and I'm an elementary school teacher.

A child who is working 2 years ahead in math should NOT be scoring in the 70th percentile on a grade level math test of basic addition skills. She should be scoring above the 95th percentile, at a minimum.

Is your child in MCPS?

I don't agree with this statement. While the Terra Nova is an "achievement" test, performing at the 70th percentile is not necessarily "bad," even for a student in accelerated math. Saying that the student achieved 70%ile in a nationally normed test is NOT the same as saying that the student got a 70%, and any basic teacher should know the difference between the two. The former means that your child scored better than 70% of the students taking the exam, the latter means your student answered 70% of the questions.

First, MCPS itself touts the 50%ile mark as some sort of accomplishment for the county system-wide, bragging that "over 70% of our students have surpassed the 50%ile mark on the Terra Nova" You can search on the MCPS website and find info for every elementary school about what percent of the school surpassed the 50%ile mark (although I can not find any more narrow data showing how many surpass higher percentile levels).

Second, it is the case that accelerated students being tested on material from several years ago might not remember certain aspects of the math. This is normal and happens for accelerated and non-accelerated students. For example, a kid who studies exponents as part of grade 5 math one year, may remember the basic concept of exponents 2 years later (that x squared is x times x) but may not remember finer details (that while most values raised to an exponent increase in value, this is not always the case e.g. fractions and zero). Or a kid in third grade math may not remember all his multiplication facts (might not know the 11 or 12 times table as fast an easy as others). It is regularly the case in MCPS that kids in accelerated math classes "review" certain on grade topics prior to MSAs for precisely this reason.

Also high scores on the Terra Nova are used for selection to G/T programs -- a score in the 95%ile is far more than required for G/T selection. Surely the PP doesn't mean to suggest that any student working ahead of grade must be in the tippy top of the G/T selection group? At our schools almost half of the kids in a grade are working at least one year ahead in math, so I guarantee you that math accelerated kids don't need to be scoring in the 95%ile.

[Anonymous]

PP here, to add to the above, this is why it is perfectly reasonable to request to see the test booklet and scores -- to find out what math your child missed and whether it is indicative of any kind of serious hole in her understanding or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I don't agree with this statement. While the Terra Nova is an "achievement" test, performing at the 70th percentile is not necessarily "bad," even for a student in accelerated math. Saying that the student achieved 70%ile in a nationally normed test is NOT the same as saying that the student got a 70%, and any basic teacher should know the difference between the two. The former means that your child scored better than 70% of the students taking the exam, the latter means your student answered 70% of the questions.

OP said her child scored in the 70th percentil on "adding whole numbers" -- If her child is in second grade, and has been advanced 2 years, she is now working on fourth grade math. That's multiplying and dividing large numbers; using addition and subtraction MANY times in the process (carrying, etc.) She should still be able to remember how to add whole numbers. You don't stop "adding whole numbers" in fourth grade. You continue adding more whole number, just larger numbers, numbers in fraction form, etc. There is no universe in which a child working on fourth grade math should forget how to add whole numbers.

This is a big problem with acceleration in math -- push the kids too fast and they miss some basic skills. A child working on fourth grade math problems such as 6,789 + 5,291 = ???? who still can't accurately compute 9+8=17 is going to have a problem, unfortunately in her accelerated math class the teacher is unlikely to spend the time to review the basic math facts.

In my personal opinion, a child who is in 2nd grade but is working on fourth grade material dam well better score better than 95% of second graders who took the second grade math test on all areas but especially on "adding whole numbers" and the like. That's a pretty basic skill and one that is used all throughout higher grade math.

Also high scores on the Terra Nova are used for selection to G/T programs -- a score in the 95%ile is far more than required for G/T selection. Surely the PP doesn't mean to suggest that any student working ahead of grade must be in the tippy top of the G/T selection group? At our schools almost half of the kids in a grade are working at least one year ahead in math, so I guarantee you that math accelerated kids don't need to be scoring in the 95%ile.

Is it? What's the Terra Nove cut off score? I didn' tknow there was one.

Anyhow, Not one year ahead, but yes, working two years ahead? That's a REALLY huge jump. I wouldn't accerate kids as much as MCPS does, in general, but the most I'd accelerate kids is one year, unless they were REALLY gifted, and that would not be that many children. I'd definitely want to see my child score 95th percentile or higher on a grade level test, especially on basic skills. If she didn't -- I'm not saying mover her back down to a lower level, but I do think youd' better make sure those skills get caught up.

[Anonymous]

OP again. Yes this is MCPS. Luckily, I am not at all worried about my child's ability to add. She is working two years abead and gets all "complete understandings" on tests. Just wondering what might have happened on that portion of the test.... I think her other scores will carry her if we decide to look for G-T options for next year..

[Anonymous]

we are in private school and when kids from MCPS come in, many are advanced but don't seem to have the depth of knowledge especially for basic math facts like addition and subtraction, knowing multiplication facts etc. This is in the 7th grade. When a friend recently switched her son to public MS, I asked her how it was different and her son answered they go faster but don't spend as much time on homework review and teaching the topic. The homework was 10 problems a night vs 40 problems a night.