Feds Only Reasonable Accomodations

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel for people, but I do think during Covid people got used to WFH/ being able to run to Target/go for walks/pick up kids and check emails a few times, etc. Be grateful for a job. Many people have been RTO since 2021/2022!

When I was a child my single mom (dad died) had cancer. She went to work and also had doctors appointments, surgery, chemo, etc. I still remember her picking me up from after school at the very end with lit her colostomy bag and kids also being picked up would make fun of her. She didn't complain, was a great and present mom, and went into an office and worked. She ended up dying and we moved in with an aunt who was/never got not married, who went into an office everyday and some weekends.

I learned a lot as kid, could do my own laundry, homework, etc, and was never babied! I see cousins who have parents who basically do/did everything for them. One lives at home at age 29 and refuses to work, two others had their mom write many papers in HS and college for them, and many have their parents pay for their expensive life after they graduated college.

My aunt hired high school babysitters and a neighbor who was a SAHM with similar aged kids to watch us after school and in the summer since camps were too expensive. My grandparents also took us for a couple weeks in the summer.

No one is forcing you to stay at your job. If you don't like RTO then apply elsewhere. It will be hard with so many people out of work, but if you don't like what is required as an employee then leave.

I feel for the people with real things that need to be protected. Being upset you have a 2 hour commute stinks but pushing for an accomodation takes time away from someone who actually needs one.

I did not vote for this, but reading posts on here make me realize so many people are out of touch.

That's what I was thinking, too. It was only 5 years ago that this was the life almost everyone led. Sucky commutes, less time with kids, long stressful days at the office.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but a lot of people are acting like WFH is kind of the baseline. An entitlement. When it's really the last few years that have been weird.

I agree with you except that your assumption is that the pre-Covid approach is the gold standard. It isn't. It reflects the way the work world operated before technology enabled us to do things differently.

If workers' lives are more manageable and the work still gets done and traffic is lighter and less carbon is emitted and children are better off and people have more time to exercise and cook dinner and enjoy the sunshine, what is the point of returning to the pre-Covid way of working?

I work unconventional hours so my free time is during the day.

All I can say is that the coffee shops, Homegoods, Target, Costco, Whole Foods and local restaurants are now half empty during the day. One month or so ago, they were packed all day long. Especially the coffee shops and stores.

A lot of people were getting their work done during the day, but just as many were out shopping, catching up with friends and getting their hair done.

Yep. I’m a nurse who has worked in person for the last 10 years, 3 days/week. The change on the roads in the middle of a weekday now — ie, a couple of weeks after massive RTO in the DMV — has been DRAMATIC. I am still doing my Target runs on a Tuesday at 10:30 am like I have been consistently since 2015. This week, the arterial roads and the stores and the hair salon and the vet and the Rock Creek trails look like they used to 2015-2020. Because tens of thousands of white collar workers are at their computers at 10:30 on a Tuesday instead of getting highlights, doing Pilates, doing tempo runs and exploring Bailey’s diarrhea at the vet.

Were you required to take an elective economics class before becoming a nurse? Because consumer confidence is way down across the board which means people just aren't spending in optional things like highlights, the vet, etc. But go on blaming people on remote work.

DP, but do you really think that people being back to the office hasn’t played a big role in this?

No, I live in a red state with few remote federal employees yet the Costco parking lots and all the things listed by the "nurse" have all been recently empty here. You realize that federal employees are only 13% of the workforce in DC area right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel for people, but I do think during Covid people got used to WFH/ being able to run to Target/go for walks/pick up kids and check emails a few times, etc. Be grateful for a job. Many people have been RTO since 2021/2022!

When I was a child my single mom (dad died) had cancer. She went to work and also had doctors appointments, surgery, chemo, etc. I still remember her picking me up from after school at the very end with lit her colostomy bag and kids also being picked up would make fun of her. She didn't complain, was a great and present mom, and went into an office and worked. She ended up dying and we moved in with an aunt who was/never got not married, who went into an office everyday and some weekends.

I learned a lot as kid, could do my own laundry, homework, etc, and was never babied! I see cousins who have parents who basically do/did everything for them. One lives at home at age 29 and refuses to work, two others had their mom write many papers in HS and college for them, and many have their parents pay for their expensive life after they graduated college.

My aunt hired high school babysitters and a neighbor who was a SAHM with similar aged kids to watch us after school and in the summer since camps were too expensive. My grandparents also took us for a couple weeks in the summer.

No one is forcing you to stay at your job. If you don't like RTO then apply elsewhere. It will be hard with so many people out of work, but if you don't like what is required as an employee then leave.

I feel for the people with real things that need to be protected. Being upset you have a 2 hour commute stinks but pushing for an accomodation takes time away from someone who actually needs one.

I did not vote for this, but reading posts on here make me realize so many people are out of touch.

That's what I was thinking, too. It was only 5 years ago that this was the life almost everyone led. Sucky commutes, less time with kids, long stressful days at the office.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but a lot of people are acting like WFH is kind of the baseline. An entitlement. When it's really the last few years that have been weird.

I agree with you except that your assumption is that the pre-Covid approach is the gold standard. It isn't. It reflects the way the work world operated before technology enabled us to do things differently.

If workers' lives are more manageable and the work still gets done and traffic is lighter and less carbon is emitted and children are better off and people have more time to exercise and cook dinner and enjoy the sunshine, what is the point of returning to the pre-Covid way of working?

I work unconventional hours so my free time is during the day.

All I can say is that the coffee shops, Homegoods, Target, Costco, Whole Foods and local restaurants are now half empty during the day. One month or so ago, they were packed all day long. Especially the coffee shops and stores.

A lot of people were getting their work done during the day, but just as many were out shopping, catching up with friends and getting their hair done.

Yep. I’m a nurse who has worked in person for the last 10 years, 3 days/week. The change on the roads in the middle of a weekday now — ie, a couple of weeks after massive RTO in the DMV — has been DRAMATIC. I am still doing my Target runs on a Tuesday at 10:30 am like I have been consistently since 2015. This week, the arterial roads and the stores and the hair salon and the vet and the Rock Creek trails look like they used to 2015-2020. Because tens of thousands of white collar workers are at their computers at 10:30 on a Tuesday instead of getting highlights, doing Pilates, doing tempo runs and exploring Bailey’s diarrhea at the vet.

Were you required to take an elective economics class before becoming a nurse? Because consumer confidence is way down across the board which means people just aren't spending in optional things like highlights, the vet, etc. But go on blaming people on remote work.

New poster.

Friday everything was packed as usual during the day. Monday and every day since, everything is empty.

A neighborhood facebook group had a not short thread discussing how women were going to get their hair appointments scheduled now that the fed return to the office made daytime appointments impossible. Hair coloring takes several hours, so they weren't talking about getting a quick buzz cut over lunch.

A lot of people were being productive at home, but a lot were getting their nails done and doing their target runs. The immediate flipping of the switch the day of return to work and since was fairly striking, and honestly surprised me.

[Anonymous]

Sad for people who truly need accommodations.

[Anonymous]

I’m sure all the shop workers and waiters are rolling their eyes at your need for WFO. Most people have long commutes and make less. Also true for hospital workers, mechanics and receptionists. If they get sick or have kids and can’t make it work, they find a new job close to home, work PT or quit. America doesn’t make it easy since there’s almost no safety net.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've got an immune condition that requires going to the 5 doctors every time I "flare." What I'd like to do is not have to take the entire day off for those doctors appointments, but instead telework half days. Is that something you'd request a reasonable accommodation for? The doctors I see are not the type where you get to choose the time of your appointment, particularly on short notice; you just go when they say.

Yes, you can request intermittent telework and leave to deal with these flare ups.

but do I have to get a formal 'reasonable accommodation'?

In this environment, I would. I am considering it myself, since things are just not normal anymore. I manage people and would normally not bat an eye if someone asked to intermittently telework because they weren’t feeling well, no questions asked. Today, that’s different. I’m asking employees to ask for an accomodation if they need one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've got an immune condition that requires going to the 5 doctors every time I "flare." What I'd like to do is not have to take the entire day off for those doctors appointments, but instead telework half days. Is that something you'd request a reasonable accommodation for? The doctors I see are not the type where you get to choose the time of your appointment, particularly on short notice; you just go when they say.

Yes, you can request intermittent telework and leave to deal with these flare ups.

but do I have to get a formal 'reasonable accommodation'?

NP here with autoimmune disease, yes, ask for accommodation - unlimited situational telework for the day with the appointments. For the appointment itself, use sick hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Instead of 1 boy crying wolf it’s 20% of them. Very unfortunate for those that really need accommodations.

Why so many feds seeking accommodations? Not seeing this in private sector.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting on mine. Multiple mental heath conditions that require sleep hygiene and medications not compatible with daily 4 hours spent commuting.

I believe you that your mental health isn’t compatible with commuting 4 hours but I hope you didn’t say “sleep hygiene” in your request. I also suspect you will get denied because living 2 hours away from the office is a choice. No one’s mental health is compatible with 4 hours of commuting. But I hope it works out for you!

This is why people resent Feds. I am not Trump supporter and have mental health issues but… WTF interpreting the ADA to cover crap like this is ridiculous. Reasonably accommodate your darn self, 4-hour-commute PP.

NP. I don't understand this response. Why can't a person work from home for these reasons.

The RTO thing is simply a way to make feds miserable. There is no REAL reason they are doing this. It's not for the good of anybody. So why would you begrudge someone who lives far from their job continuing to work from home.

I guess I'm now part of a very small minority of people who don't live and breathe constant resentment. I don't get upset at other people getting things that help them, even if I don't. This is why our country sucks now. Everyone is petty and selfish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m sure all the shop workers and waiters are rolling their eyes at your need for WFO. Most people have long commutes and make less. Also true for hospital workers, mechanics and receptionists. If they get sick or have kids and can’t make it work, they find a new job close to home, work PT or quit. America doesn’t make it easy since there’s almost no safety net.

They aren't rolling their eyes. It's called envy. It's destroying this country. Maybe they should find jobs where they can work from home if it's what they really want. Otherwise, they can butt their noses out of other people's lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel for people, but I do think during Covid people got used to WFH/ being able to run to Target/go for walks/pick up kids and check emails a few times, etc. Be grateful for a job. Many people have been RTO since 2021/2022!

When I was a child my single mom (dad died) had cancer. She went to work and also had doctors appointments, surgery, chemo, etc. I still remember her picking me up from after school at the very end with lit her colostomy bag and kids also being picked up would make fun of her. She didn't complain, was a great and present mom, and went into an office and worked. She ended up dying and we moved in with an aunt who was/never got not married, who went into an office everyday and some weekends.

I learned a lot as kid, could do my own laundry, homework, etc, and was never babied! I see cousins who have parents who basically do/did everything for them. One lives at home at age 29 and refuses to work, two others had their mom write many papers in HS and college for them, and many have their parents pay for their expensive life after they graduated college.

My aunt hired high school babysitters and a neighbor who was a SAHM with similar aged kids to watch us after school and in the summer since camps were too expensive. My grandparents also took us for a couple weeks in the summer.

No one is forcing you to stay at your job. If you don't like RTO then apply elsewhere. It will be hard with so many people out of work, but if you don't like what is required as an employee then leave.

I feel for the people with real things that need to be protected. Being upset you have a 2 hour commute stinks but pushing for an accomodation takes time away from someone who actually needs one.

I did not vote for this, but reading posts on here make me realize so many people are out of touch.

30-40 years ago, far fewer people could even do their jobs from home. There was no internet. People were using faxes. For someone to work from home would have required far more resources and accommodation on the employer side, and most jobs just wouldn’t be possible. If someone had physical limitations preventing them from working in person, they likely were unable to work at all.

Remote work makes it possible for many disabled people to work who might otherwise be unable to.

That’s true. But the majority of people now putting in for RAs to continue permanent or extensive telework somehow managed to come into the office pre pandemic.

The people you are referring to are not the ones all of a sudden seeking accommodations.

I’d be very interested in your source for this claim.

In my agency, there has been substantial turnover during the pandemic. In my branch, we were all hired on a fully remote basis—none of us ever “managed to come into the office.” Quite a few of us are disabled people who selected these roles because they made it possible for us to do good work without requiring special “accommodations.”

Our productivity—as measured by the number, quality and accuracy of the basic unit of our citizen-facing work—is closely tracked, and it also rose over this interval.

I was on an 800-person Teams presentation about RAs recently, and many of the employees asking questions were people who—unlike those directly in my branch—have had remote work as an accommodation since long before the pandemic. The agency had been planning to make these folks, who have permanent disabling conditions and have been productively working remotely, “recertify” their need for accommodation (which is a violation of the standing EEOC guidance on when this can happen) and recently walked that back, I think because the career staff made a persuasive enough case that this paperwork burden was absurd (in addition to being illegal).

The federal government has been a leading employers of people with disabilities since the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. So there probably are substantially more of us in the federal workplace—historically an innovator in telework—than the law of averages would dictate.

Please do not assume that your casual flinging around of concepts like “majority” is somehow canonical. Or: produce receipts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting on mine. Multiple mental heath conditions that require sleep hygiene and medications not compatible with daily 4 hours spent commuting.

Commuting is not an ADA issue. You are not entitled to accommodations to avoid the commute regardless of the condition.

Are you an attorney?

Some of these commutes are 2 hours long. Many middle aged and older women suffer from degrees of incontinence. They would have to stop at a bathroom, making their commute even longer. I would argue that the commute itself absolutely is an issue for these people and that remote work is a reasonable accommodation.

You can argue whatever you would like. But the folks in your hypothetical could also wear adult diapers, or simply stop as needed even if it added a bit to the commute.

The PP you were responding to is wrong that telework can’t be an accommodation, but garden variety incontinence issues is not getting you work from home.

I never said TW can’t be an accommodation. What I said is that employers are not required to accommodate if the issue is the commute.

That’s false, unless in-person physical presence is an essential function of the job.

Where no one has been in-person for half a decade, the hill for proving that is steep, upwards, and likely to lead to losses in court.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A number of attorneys at my office are trying to claim reasonable accommodation in order to avoid RTO because they bought houses so far away.

Okay, Jan. Without medical support from a physician, that won’t fly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Instead of 1 boy crying wolf it’s 20% of them. Very unfortunate for those that really need accommodations.

Why so many feds seeking accommodations? Not seeing this in private sector.

You can't "see" anything, unless you are in a special role in HR. RA data is held confidentially and the companies are super careful about it, because the fines are huge for accidental disclosures and non-compliance with the accommodation. IMO, federal government is the worst about implementing and keeping it private, because it has an endless amount of money to litigate its wrongdoings. I had RA in the private sector for a decade or so and my coworkers had no idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel for people, but I do think during Covid people got used to WFH/ being able to run to Target/go for walks/pick up kids and check emails a few times, etc. Be grateful for a job. Many people have been RTO since 2021/2022!

When I was a child my single mom (dad died) had cancer. She went to work and also had doctors appointments, surgery, chemo, etc. I still remember her picking me up from after school at the very end with lit her colostomy bag and kids also being picked up would make fun of her. She didn't complain, was a great and present mom, and went into an office and worked. She ended up dying and we moved in with an aunt who was/never got not married, who went into an office everyday and some weekends.

I learned a lot as kid, could do my own laundry, homework, etc, and was never babied! I see cousins who have parents who basically do/did everything for them. One lives at home at age 29 and refuses to work, two others had their mom write many papers in HS and college for them, and many have their parents pay for their expensive life after they graduated college.

My aunt hired high school babysitters and a neighbor who was a SAHM with similar aged kids to watch us after school and in the summer since camps were too expensive. My grandparents also took us for a couple weeks in the summer.

No one is forcing you to stay at your job. If you don't like RTO then apply elsewhere. It will be hard with so many people out of work, but if you don't like what is required as an employee then leave.

I feel for the people with real things that need to be protected. Being upset you have a 2 hour commute stinks but pushing for an accomodation takes time away from someone who actually needs one.

I did not vote for this, but reading posts on here make me realize so many people are out of touch.

That's what I was thinking, too. It was only 5 years ago that this was the life almost everyone led. Sucky commutes, less time with kids, long stressful days at the office.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but a lot of people are acting like WFH is kind of the baseline. An entitlement. When it's really the last few years that have been weird.

Not weird. Better. A teeny step toward making our world more family friendly. Why would we want to go backward. Do you want to start hand-washing all of your laundry in a tub in your backyard, too?

Most of the people who are giving a hard time to those who want to telework are just envious, I think. Or mean.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting on mine. Multiple mental heath conditions that require sleep hygiene and medications not compatible with daily 4 hours spent commuting.

Commuting is not an ADA issue. You are not entitled to accommodations to avoid the commute regardless of the condition.

Are you an attorney?

Some of these commutes are 2 hours long. Many middle aged and older women suffer from degrees of incontinence. They would have to stop at a bathroom, making their commute even longer. I would argue that the commute itself absolutely is an issue for these people and that remote work is a reasonable accommodation.

You can argue whatever you would like. But the folks in your hypothetical could also wear adult diapers, or simply stop as needed even if it added a bit to the commute.

The PP you were responding to is wrong that telework can’t be an accommodation, but garden variety incontinence issues is not getting you work from home.

I never said TW can’t be an accommodation. What I said is that employers are not required to accommodate if the issue is the commute.

That’s false, unless in-person physical presence is an essential function of the job.

Where no one has been in-person for half a decade, the hill for proving that is steep, upwards, and likely to lead to losses in court.

You first would have to show a medically inability to commute.

A company does not have to show in office is essential more broadly. Them simply wanting you in the office is sufficient.