Question for those opposed to legacy status

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see what seems like a lot of posts from people strongly opposed to “legacy admissions” and I’m curious about this position. I agree that unqualified applicants should not be admitted to any schools. Do you assume that no legacy applicants are qualified for admission to the school their parent attended? That seems odd to me given how important parental expectations are for success in school and life.

Do you mean that no kids should be permitted to apply to the schools their parents attended? How would it even work, when the common app asks for parental information (and that appears to be the basis for first generation applicants)? And how is it different from school that look at demonstrated interest? Why should legacy kids’ interest in attending the school they are familiar with, have a personal/family connection to, and likely grew up knowing about, visiting, rooting for its sports teams, etc not be allowed to follow that interest?

Genuinely curious, I promise.

Not rocket science. Simply ignore legacy status, focus on merit 100%.

Candidate deserves it? Gets in.

Doesn't deserve it? Doesn't get in.

Who your parents are should be irrelevant.

Except ... you're using terms like "deserve it." How do you determine who "deserves it?"

What do you do when you have 500 spots and there are 10,000 qualified applicants?

That's when these other criteria become valid, including legacy, affirmative action, etc. Schools build cohorts and communities. They aren't some reward for high achievement.

How do you think any, say, sports team would do it?

From those 10,000 qualified applicants you'd find the 500 most qualified.

What do you mean by "most qualified?" Is the person with and 800 Math and 600 Verbal of the SAT more qualified than the person with 700 in each section? Does the person who took AP Latin get a boost over the person who took AP Spanish? If someone took AP Spanish but it turns out they are native speakers at home and just took it for the easy A, they are less qualified now than the kid who sat next to them in class and only got a B plus? Is a kid who got extra credit in his science class and boosted his grade, but his who's mom is a Engineering professor at the local college and basically did his project for him more "qualified" than the kid who didn't enter the science fair because he didn't have time because he was babysitting his siblings after school because his mom was sick? What's more qualified, an A in BC calc in 12tt grade or a B+ in BC calc in 11th grade but that an A in multivariable in 12th grade? Is a kid who plays piano but not in school more qualified than the kid who plays violin in the school orchestra? Is the kid who started high school not speaking any English but managed to get Bs in all his English classes less qualified than the native speaker who got B pluses in the same class? Do you say "oh this year our most qualified applicants were all female psychology majors so sorry math and lit and language professors, no students for you."

+1000

That's the major issue---college admissions in NOT a formula (nor should it be). Someone with a 4.0/1600 is not smarter than someone with a 1450/3.8. They are both smart people and bring different things to the table. Colleges, smartly, want a diverse student body (and define diversity in many ways): they want kids from all 50 states, from many countries, in a variety of majors (cannot have all mechanical engineering majors, but no English majors), with a variety of ECs that the student body enjoys. Whole point of college is to learn academically and to grow socially with a unique group of peers. If everyone is cookie cutter the same, I know I and my kids would not want that. I suspect most universities do not want that either.

Just like the people you work with are not all from the same university, most are probably not all 4.0 students in HS and/or in college. Nobody cares what your grades were or SAT score or really even where you attended college. I just want my colleagues/team to work together, complete their part of the projects, ask for help if they need it well before the deadline and grow/improve their skills constantly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

The US college system of today is beyond absurd. We are encouraging our kids to study abroad.

+1

Too many people, too many students, and not enough spaces. The US is becoming overcrowded - FAST.

Most colleges are desperate for students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see what seems like a lot of posts from people strongly opposed to “legacy admissions” and I’m curious about this position. I agree that unqualified applicants should not be admitted to any schools. Do you assume that no legacy applicants are qualified for admission to the school their parent attended? That seems odd to me given how important parental expectations are for success in school and life.

Do you mean that no kids should be permitted to apply to the schools their parents attended? How would it even work, when the common app asks for parental information (and that appears to be the basis for first generation applicants)? And how is it different from school that look at demonstrated interest? Why should legacy kids’ interest in attending the school they are familiar with, have a personal/family connection to, and likely grew up knowing about, visiting, rooting for its sports teams, etc not be allowed to follow that interest?

Genuinely curious, I promise.

Not rocket science. Simply ignore legacy status, focus on merit 100%.

Candidate deserves it? Gets in.

Doesn't deserve it? Doesn't get in.

Who your parents are should be irrelevant.

It's this for me. Other prioritized students arguably bring SOMETHING to the table that is unique, valued, etc. Parental connection is not one of them.

+1

And each university has the option to weigh what unique "Something" is most important to them. Be it legacy status, location (want to get that student from Wyoming), major, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you want to leave parents out of the equation, don’t ask if parents went to college and higher degree achieved.

A kid who has parents who’ve achieved graduate degrees is more privileged than a first Gen kid. That matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No preference for legacy status. It’s not hard to understand, OP.

For OP, it is because OP cannot fathom losing their privilege.

Your generation is overusing this word.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see what seems like a lot of posts from people strongly opposed to “legacy admissions” and I’m curious about this position. I agree that unqualified applicants should not be admitted to any schools. Do you assume that no legacy applicants are qualified for admission to the school their parent attended? That seems odd to me given how important parental expectations are for success in school and life.

Do you mean that no kids should be permitted to apply to the schools their parents attended? How would it even work, when the common app asks for parental information (and that appears to be the basis for first generation applicants)? And how is it different from school that look at demonstrated interest? Why should legacy kids’ interest in attending the school they are familiar with, have a personal/family connection to, and likely grew up knowing about, visiting, rooting for its sports teams, etc not be allowed to follow that interest?

Genuinely curious, I promise.

Not rocket science. Simply ignore legacy status, focus on merit 100%.

Candidate deserves it? Gets in.

Doesn't deserve it? Doesn't get in.

Who your parents are should be irrelevant.

Except ... you're using terms like "deserve it." How do you determine who "deserves it?"

What do you do when you have 500 spots and there are 10,000 qualified applicants?

That's when these other criteria become valid, including legacy, affirmative action, etc. Schools build cohorts and communities. They aren't some reward for high achievement.

How do you think any, say, sports team would do it?

From those 10,000 qualified applicants you'd find the 500 most qualified.

What do you mean by "most qualified?" Is the person with and 800 Math and 600 Verbal of the SAT more qualified than the person with 700 in each section? Does the person who took AP Latin get a boost over the person who took AP Spanish? If someone took AP Spanish but it turns out they are native speakers at home and just took it for the easy A, they are less qualified now than the kid who sat next to them in class and only got a B plus? Is a kid who got extra credit in his science class and boosted his grade, but his who's mom is a Engineering professor at the local college and basically did his project for him more "qualified" than the kid who didn't enter the science fair because he didn't have time because he was babysitting his siblings after school because his mom was sick? What's more qualified, an A in BC calc in 12tt grade or a B+ in BC calc in 11th grade but that an A in multivariable in 12th grade? Is a kid who plays piano but not in school more qualified than the kid who plays violin in the school orchestra? Is the kid who started high school not speaking any English but managed to get Bs in all his English classes less qualified than the native speaker who got B pluses in the same class? Do you say "oh this year our most qualified applicants were all female psychology majors so sorry math and lit and language professors, no students for you."

+1000

That's the major issue---college admissions in NOT a formula (nor should it be). Someone with a 4.0/1600 is not smarter than someone with a 1450/3.8. They are both smart people and bring different things to the table. Colleges, smartly, want a diverse student body (and define diversity in many ways): they want kids from all 50 states, from many countries, in a variety of majors (cannot have all mechanical engineering majors, but no English majors), with a variety of ECs that the student body enjoys. Whole point of college is to learn academically and to grow socially with a unique group of peers. If everyone is cookie cutter the same, I know I and my kids would not want that. I suspect most universities do not want that either.

Just like the people you work with are not all from the same university, most are probably not all 4.0 students in HS and/or in college. Nobody cares what your grades were or SAT score or really even where you attended college. I just want my colleagues/team to work together, complete their part of the projects, ask for help if they need it well before the deadline and grow/improve their skills constantly.

It's not a formula but there are factors taken into consideration and there's no good reason legacy status should be one of those factors. Legacies will still be admitted, they just won't get any special treatment (beyond the fact they probably were given much more over 18 years than some of their competitors....but no more than competitors whose parents are well educated)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No preference for legacy status. It’s not hard to understand, OP.

For OP, it is because OP cannot fathom losing their privilege.

Your generation is overusing this word.

Your generation pretends it doesn’t exist so you can continue to believe you did it all by yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The concept of legacy preference is so medieval. Can you imagine applying for a job and getting a legal, stated preference based on who your father is? It’s like an old guild system or something.

Well actually businesses and corporations tend be more like the old guild system than colleges but no one’s complaining about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want to leave parents out of the equation, don’t ask if parents went to college and higher degree achieved.

A kid who has parents who’ve achieved graduate degrees is more privileged than a first Gen kid. That matters.

It shouldn’t. You can’t pick your parents anymore than you can pick the color of your skin or sex. It’s just as wrong to hold it against a kid that their parent is uneducated as that their parent is educated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

The US college system of today is beyond absurd. We are encouraging our kids to study abroad.

+1

Too many people, too many students, and not enough spaces. The US is becoming overcrowded - FAST.

Most colleges are desperate for students

Only ones not worth going to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

The US college system of today is beyond absurd. We are encouraging our kids to study abroad.

+1

Too many people, too many students, and not enough spaces. The US is becoming overcrowded - FAST.

Most colleges are desperate for students

Only ones not worth going to.

You aren’t entitled to a spot at any specific college. There are plenty of spaces.

[Anonymous]

If legacy status is no longer considered, neither should First Gen. Apples to apples means removing all info related to an applicant’s family and parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

The US college system of today is beyond absurd. We are encouraging our kids to study abroad.

+1

Too many people, too many students, and not enough spaces. The US is becoming overcrowded - FAST.

Most colleges are desperate for students

Only ones not worth going to.

You aren’t entitled to a spot at any specific college. There are plenty of spaces.

Sure, but that doesn’t negate the fact that the only schools begging for students are those that are a step away from insolvency

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If legacy status is no longer considered, neither should First Gen. Apples to apples means removing all info related to an applicant’s family and parents.

Legacy students are privileged and first Gen students are not.

[Anonymous]

OP, the simple answer is that many qualified kids who would never have applied in the past (international, immigrant, poor, rural, URM, etc.) are now striving for the best schools and they don’t want someone’s “privilege“ to stand in their way.