Is it really worth it to pay a premium for a house in a top school pyramid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marshall Parents - The next time you ask why people inexplicably seem to dump on Marshall, please refer to the prior post. You have a very good school, but you also have several parents like Crazy Marshall Lady who are horrible ambassadors for the place. As long as they make asinine comparisons, treat the US News survey like it's dispositive, and hype Pimmit Hills like it's Clarendon, they are asking for trouble.

And, of course, it goes without saying that many of the schools in North Arlington are great. All the prior poster was saying was that the Marshall pyramid doesn't have the name recognition yet of the North Arlington pyramids, and he/she is correct. The antidote is to spread the good news (based on valid data, of course) about Marshall, not respond with more insults.

arlington snob

I prefer realist, but thanks for proving my point.

I was rather put off by your down playing of schools outside of north arlington, granted you may not be as direct as the marshall pushers you are transparently snarky and passive which can be seen by anyone. So who's worse? someone who will be direct or someone who does it in secret?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting, PP. We're in Marshall pyramid and were thinking of moving to the McLean pyramid for HS, assuming it would be better. Now I'm reconsidering because I think DC may be happier at a more laid back school. It's nice to hear you speak of them similarly in terms of quality. maybe we'll save ourselves some money (and anxiety) and stay in the Marshall pyramid.

You can also notice that marshall was rated slightly higher than McLean last year so they are both equally excellent schools.

2012 SATs - Langley (1812), McLean (1755), Madison (1730), Marshall (1702)

Fall 2012 National Merit Semifinalists - Langley (13), McLean (11), Madison (9), Marshall (8)

Jay Matthews/Washington Post Regional Challenge Index - McLean (14), Madison (15), Langley (16), Marshall (54)

US News/State of Virginia Rankings - Marshall (3), McLean (4), Langley (6), Madison (8)

GreatSchools - Each receives a "9" on a 1-10 scale.

Percentage of Students Receiving Free/Reduced Lunch - Langley (1.55%), Madison (8.60%), McLean (10.18%), Marshall (16.75%).

Percentage of Students With Limited English Proficiency - Langley (1.70%), Madison (4.25%), McLean (6.35%), Marshall (10.71%).

Would love this data for the purported "Top 4" in Montgomery County.

I was looking at the us news site and it appears the following as the top in maryland / montgomery.

FYI I am sure there are other metrics that will conflict or be of support to US news.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/maryland

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/maryland/districts/montgomery-county-public-schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Personally I find school "rankings" to be overrated. The lower ranked schools typically have lower test score averages because they pull from some lower income, diverse areas. I personally think there's a lot of educational advantages to being exposed to cultural and socioeconomic differences.

Plus, I think smart kids have a lot to gain by being one of the smartest kids in the schol, which opens up a lot of opportunities, than one of dozens and dozens of smart kids, as is the case at McLean, etc.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I never wanted my kids at the 'top' school (which is smoke and mirrors anyhow). It is solely based on the homogenity of the population.

DH went to a HS that only had 5% that went onto 4-year colleges. He was very smart and got a scholarship to a very well-known and well-regarded private University. He is very smart. However, he would have been just like many of your typical kids at the top schools in this area.

I was number 10 out of 495 at FairfaX Co. HS which helped in college admissions. It was a middle o the pack school. I don't doubt I would not have been as highly ranked at one of the top HS. I feel the education I received was similar though.

Alo-factor into the type of uber-competitive tiger parents you will have to associate with for the next 12 years. We are in a great neighborhood that feeds into a highly credibe, but diverse HS and I like the attitude here beter. Property values are through the roof and a house rarely comes on the market.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marshall Parents - The next time you ask why people inexplicably seem to dump on Marshall, please refer to the prior post. You have a very good school, but you also have several parents like Crazy Marshall Lady who are horrible ambassadors for the place. As long as they make asinine comparisons, treat the US News survey like it's dispositive, and hype Pimmit Hills like it's Clarendon, they are asking for trouble.

And, of course, it goes without saying that many of the schools in North Arlington are great. All the prior poster was saying was that the Marshall pyramid doesn't have the name recognition yet of the North Arlington pyramids, and he/she is correct. The antidote is to spread the good news (based on valid data, of course) about Marshall, not respond with more insults.

arlington snob

I prefer realist, but thanks for proving my point.

I was rather put off by your down playing of schools outside of north arlington, granted you may not be as direct as the marshall pushers you are transparently snarky and passive which can be seen by anyone. So who's worse? someone who will be direct or someone who does it in secret?

I'm not the North Arlington poster. The North Arlington poster referred to North Arlington schools, in the context of discussing which school pyramids are typically more sought-after locally, and I referred to her/his post. I don't think it's passive to try and stay on topic, and substantively I agreed with what the North Arlington poster said about local perceptions. From a RE/selling perspective, it takes a very long time before improving school pyramids like Marshall generate enough positive buzz that people specifically seek them out or tout that a house is located in that pyramid. Marshall is moving in that direction, but it takes time, and things like references to schools in RE listings are a lagging indicator of school quality and reputation.

If you want to discuss other schools or raise a different point, speak freely. No one is stopping you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Personally I find school "rankings" to be overrated. The lower ranked schools typically have lower test score averages because they pull from some lower income, diverse areas. I personally think there's a lot of educational advantages to being exposed to cultural and socioeconomic differences.

Plus, I think smart kids have a lot to gain by being one of the smartest kids in the schol, which opens up a lot of opportunities, than one of dozens and dozens of smart kids, as is the case at McLean, etc.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I never wanted my kids at the 'top' school (which is smoke and mirrors anyhow). It is solely based on the homogenity of the population.

DH went to a HS that only had 5% that went onto 4-year colleges. He was very smart and got a scholarship to a very well-known and well-regarded private University. He is very smart. However, he would have been just like many of your typical kids at the top schools in this area.

I was number 10 out of 495 at FairfaX Co. HS which helped in college admissions. It was a middle o the pack school. I don't doubt I would not have been as highly ranked at one of the top HS. I feel the education I received was similar though.

Alo-factor into the type of uber-competitive tiger parents you will have to associate with for the next 12 years. We are in a great neighborhood that feeds into a highly credibe, but diverse HS and I like the attitude here beter. Property values are through the roof and a house rarely comes on the market.

That's great, but some people would read this and wonder about the other 95% at your DH's school. Maybe more of those kids would have gone on to post-secondary education if they had attended a better school. And not everyone assumes that their kid will be the big fish if the pond is, indeed, little.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marshall Parents - The next time you ask why people inexplicably seem to dump on Marshall, please refer to the prior post. You have a very good school, but you also have several parents like Crazy Marshall Lady who are horrible ambassadors for the place. As long as they make asinine comparisons, treat the US News survey like it's dispositive, and hype Pimmit Hills like it's Clarendon, they are asking for trouble.

And, of course, it goes without saying that many of the schools in North Arlington are great. All the prior poster was saying was that the Marshall pyramid doesn't have the name recognition yet of the North Arlington pyramids, and he/she is correct. The antidote is to spread the good news (based on valid data, of course) about Marshall, not respond with more insults.

arlington snob

I prefer realist, but thanks for proving my point.

I was rather put off by your down playing of schools outside of north arlington, granted you may not be as direct as the marshall pushers you are transparently snarky and passive which can be seen by anyone. So who's worse? someone who will be direct or someone who does it in secret?

I'm not the North Arlington poster. The North Arlington poster referred to North Arlington schools, in the context of discussing which school pyramids are typically more sought-after locally, and I referred to her/his post. I don't think it's passive to try and stay on topic, and substantively I agreed with what the North Arlington poster said about local perceptions. From a RE/selling perspective, it takes a very long time before improving school pyramids like Marshall generate enough positive buzz that people specifically seek them out or tout that a house is located in that pyramid. Marshall is moving in that direction, but it takes time, and things like references to schools in RE listings are a lagging indicator of school quality and reputation.

If you want to discuss other schools or raise a different point, speak freely. No one is stopping you.

After reviewing the test scores I believe that Marshall exceeds those of Arlington for the most part. It is also interesting to see that Marshall has a slightly higher FARM rate and diversity than Arlington's best high school Yorktown yet still has better test scores. The idea of stripping away the lower performers from both schools to "level the playing fields" would still show Marshall as a higher scorer in fact maybe even higher because it has a larger population of disadvantage students. I think that educating the public on the realities of each school is the best weapon to improve it's the reputation. No one is saying Marshall is the best high school in the world, just that it is on par and better than most Arlington school pyramids and is in fact the best comparative to Arlington schools because of it's higher population of disadvantaged students.

http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/falls-church/543-Marshall-High-School/?tab=test-scores

http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/arlington/135-Yorktown-High-School/?tab=test-scores

http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/arlington/133-Washington-Lee-High-School/?tab=test-scores

[Anonymous]

only 30% of adults in the US have a college degree (the number might have changed slightly recently, this was based on one of those "what class are you" things from the NYTimes not too long ago). Just throwing it out there to chew on.

My husband only has a college degree because he started it while in the military and was determined to finish it. It took him 10 years, while working full time, getting married and having a child. He worked damn hard for that degree, one he NEVER would have gotten had he started college right out of HS instead of joining the military.

College isn't for everybody. And with college costs as they are, I'd imagine more options will be offered in the not too distant future - Training schools, certifications, that kind of thing. Asking kids to saddle themselves with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to start their adult lives is just insane. Not to mention, there aren't jobs out there to support that kind of debt PLUS living normally (moving away from home, starting a family, etc.)

But I digress. There are plenty of places in America where college is NOT the norm after HS.

[Anonymous]

If you can afford it, being in a better school pyramid almost always makes sense. Your kid will be with a brighter peer group and your house is more likely to be a safe investment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marshall Parents - The next time you ask why people inexplicably seem to dump on Marshall, please refer to the prior post. You have a very good school, but you also have several parents like Crazy Marshall Lady who are horrible ambassadors for the place. As long as they make asinine comparisons, treat the US News survey like it's dispositive, and hype Pimmit Hills like it's Clarendon, they are asking for trouble.

And, of course, it goes without saying that many of the schools in North Arlington are great. All the prior poster was saying was that the Marshall pyramid doesn't have the name recognition yet of the North Arlington pyramids, and he/she is correct. The antidote is to spread the good news (based on valid data, of course) about Marshall, not respond with more insults.

arlington snob

I prefer realist, but thanks for proving my point.

I was rather put off by your down playing of schools outside of north arlington, granted you may not be as direct as the marshall pushers you are transparently snarky and passive which can be seen by anyone. So who's worse? someone who will be direct or someone who does it in secret?

I'm not the North Arlington poster. The North Arlington poster referred to North Arlington schools, in the context of discussing which school pyramids are typically more sought-after locally, and I referred to her/his post. I don't think it's passive to try and stay on topic, and substantively I agreed with what the North Arlington poster said about local perceptions. From a RE/selling perspective, it takes a very long time before improving school pyramids like Marshall generate enough positive buzz that people specifically seek them out or tout that a house is located in that pyramid. Marshall is moving in that direction, but it takes time, and things like references to schools in RE listings are a lagging indicator of school quality and reputation.

If you want to discuss other schools or raise a different point, speak freely. No one is stopping you.

After reviewing the test scores I believe that Marshall exceeds those of Arlington for the most part. It is also interesting to see that Marshall has a slightly higher FARM rate and diversity than Arlington's best high school Yorktown yet still has better test scores. The idea of stripping away the lower performers from both schools to "level the playing fields" would still show Marshall as a higher scorer in fact maybe even higher because it has a larger population of disadvantage students. I think that educating the public on the realities of each school is the best weapon to improve it's the reputation. No one is saying Marshall is the best high school in the world, just that it is on par and better than most Arlington school pyramids and is in fact the best comparative to Arlington schools because of it's higher population of disadvantaged students.

http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/falls-church/543-Marshall-High-School/?tab=test-scores

http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/arlington/135-Yorktown-High-School/?tab=test-scores

http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/arlington/133-Washington-Lee-High-School/?tab=test-scores

What does FARM stand for? Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous]

Free and Reduced Meal Students - you sometimes see the term "FARMS," sometimes "FRM" or "F/RM." It's generally used as a proxy for the percentage of low-income students at a school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
After reviewing the test scores I believe that Marshall exceeds those of Arlington for the most part. It is also interesting to see that Marshall has a slightly higher FARM rate and diversity than Arlington's best high school Yorktown yet still has better test scores. The idea of stripping away the lower performers from both schools to "level the playing fields" would still show Marshall as a higher scorer in fact maybe even higher because it has a larger population of disadvantage students. I think that educating the public on the realities of each school is the best weapon to improve it's the reputation. No one is saying Marshall is the best high school in the world, just that it is on par and better than most Arlington school pyramids and is in fact the best comparative to Arlington schools because of it's higher population of disadvantaged students.

http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/falls-church/543-Marshall-High-School/?tab=test-scores

http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/arlington/135-Yorktown-High-School/?tab=test-scores

http://www.greatschools.org/virginia/arlington/133-Washington-Lee-High-School/?tab=test-scores

I think you're talking about SOL test scores here. Yorktown still has SAT scores about 50 points higher than Marshall, and scores higher than Marshall (as does W-L) on the "Challenge Index" that measures student enrollment in AP/IB courses.

Fairfax high schools do tend to do better than Arlington high schools on SOLs, which is the primary reason why many Fairfax high schools get higher GreatSchool ratings (lots of 9s) than Arlington high schools. Since all students take SOLs, you can argue that Marshall has done a better job than the Arlington high schools when it comes to teaching the basics. The counter-argument you might hear from Arlington is that Fairfax schools are more likely to "teach to the test" than Arlington schools, at the expense of other things students can learn in a classroom.

These are all good schools. Some have been acknowledged as such for longer than others. And, on forums like DCUM, you're going to hear from more Yorktown or W-L boosters than Marshall boosters, because they are closer to DC and DCUM skews towards those who live inside the Beltway. But it's always nice when people provide real data on schools and don't resort to personal insults.

[Anonymous]

This discussion is all well and good but remember there are a lot of people who don't have the means to buy at those top pyramid schools. If you can afford to buy in a neighborhood to goes into a top pyramid, that's awesome! For those who can't, stop acting like it's the end of the world.

There are only certain things that we have control over. One of those things is your involvement with your kids and how much you emphasize education and being well-rounded. If all parents (regardless of what school) concentrated on helping their own kids and not so worried about moving around to a top pyramid school with high ratings, then school test scores will eventually get better and the student body will also improve.

[Anonymous]

I think that it is NOT all about the schools. Houses in North Arlington and Southern McLean are higher than Tyson's/ Vienna because they are better situated. Jobs change, locations change. Since DH and I married I worked near L'Enfant and Chantilly, DH has worked in Tyson's, Upper NW DC and Bethesda. All were decent commutes from NOrth Arlington and Southern McLean. There is also better access to Metro.

[Anonymous]

How do you know the elite real estate sections of Va and MD will remain high-priced, low-crime, and free of foreclosures? The sequester may be the first prick in the enormous and unprecedented DMV real estate bubble.

Here's a recent jobs quote from on the sequester:

"Oh and the housing market that will be impacted, that should be on the top of people's mind. It has been all rainbows and unicorns with housing. Prices are sky high, people are sitting on huge mortgages. If they lose their jobs and it is happening to a lot of other people trying to fire-sell their homes-that will make it nearly impossible to get out from under a suffocating mortgage. Who are those people? Oh yea, everyone inside the beltway and everyone 10 miles outside of the beltway. "

Buyers beware.

[Anonymous]

Huh? These areas haven't been free of foreclosures for years. They just fare better than other areas in a downturn.

Some people will be sufficiently spooked by the prospect of a downturn at they will sit on the sidelines for a while to see if prices come down. Others are so tired of dealing with the limited inventory in certain price ranges in some areas that they will pounce if the opportunity presents itself and interest rates remain favorable.