Butterfly Kick in Breaststroke (not pullout)

[Anonymous]

I’ve seen an increase in the number of DQs for experienced swimmers doing a butterfly kick during breaststroke (during the race, not during their pullout). I’m talking about top swimmers, as in Olympic breaststroker Lilly King DQ’ing for this as recently as the Toyota Open in 2023.
Is this an unfortunate mistake? Is it something top swimmers are trained to do subtly and are getting caught? Or is it a blurred line with a kick technique that can go wrong if not executed correctly? If the middle scenario, is there increased scrutiny on it? (Or maybe it’s not happening with increasingly frequency and I’m just slow to notice.)

[Anonymous]

Top swimmers had been subtly throwing a fly kick motion at the end of their last stroke/kick lunging for the wall. They were able to get away with it because the turn judge is watching the hands touch, and by the time the eyes move down to the feet, the motion has ended. The stroke judge on the side has a better chance of seeing it, but it is tough to see from the side angle because the surface of the water is choppy and has glare. The recent difference is that underwater cameras are now being used to initiate calls (instead of only to review/confirm calls made by judges on deck) and it is pretty obvious on camera.

[Anonymous]

Cody Miller discusses this here. He suggests some swimmers are doing it on purpose but others it’s a natural part of the stroke. https://youtu.be/7wKk_YTQAGY?si=01BD7RvcP5UVYkqh

[Anonymous]

As we have seen an increased tempo in breastroke, the stroke is morphing more into butterfly. We see many breastroke pulls that are more like a butterfly pulldown vs a breastroke outward scull. The kick in many cases has become fast and narrow and that can lead to a downward motion at the end of the kick when the feet snap together. If the feet make a strong downward motion at the end of the breastroke kick it is grounds for a DQ and we are seeing this more and more lately.

[Anonymous]

A friend pointed this out to me during HS regionals-- I hadn't noticed at all before. So what's the end game? More S&T to catch it or change the rules so it's legal? Ignore it until national-level meets can't be the right answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A friend pointed this out to me during HS regionals-- I hadn't noticed at all before. So what's the end game? More S&T to catch it or change the rules so it's legal? Ignore it until national-level meets can't be the right answer.

Unless USA Swimming changes the rules, the lower levels that follow it won't change their rules just because it's hard to catch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As we have seen an increased tempo in breastroke, the stroke is morphing more into butterfly. We see many breastroke pulls that are more like a butterfly pulldown vs a breastroke outward scull. The kick in many cases has become fast and narrow and that can lead to a downward motion at the end of the kick when the feet snap together. If the feet make a strong downward motion at the end of the breastroke kick it is grounds for a DQ and we are seeing this more and more lately.

I’m curious where coaches are on this. I’ve seen some great breaststrokers doing this. I’d think the coaches see it? Curious if they’re trying to “fix” it and train swimmers not to do it or are just hoping no one notices because it’s so borderline. Doesn’t feel like the most level playing field for those swimmers making a concerted effort to swim legally. (To be clear, I’m not implying a lot of people are intentionally cheating, just seems odd… and to PP’s question, I wonder what the plan is on this.)

[Anonymous]

It's the dirty little open secret of swimming. I guess they're moving in the direction of enforcement but absent technology that only top meets have, is tough. You really can't see it well standing on the deck. It's very subtle in many cases I think, making it a tough judgment call.

I've also seen kids kick illegally only in the middle of the pool where, I guess, they think they can get away with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's the dirty little open secret of swimming. I guess they're moving in the direction of enforcement but absent technology that only top meets have, is tough. You really can't see it well standing on the deck. It's very subtle in many cases I think, making it a tough judgment call.

I've also seen kids kick illegally only in the middle of the pool where, I guess, they think they can get away with it.

You can't see it on deck, but you can see it pretty well from stands up above. I noticed a lot yesterday at the State meet in finals. I only looked because of this thread (my kid is NOT a breaststroker) and it was surprising to me just how prevelant it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's the dirty little open secret of swimming. I guess they're moving in the direction of enforcement but absent technology that only top meets have, is tough. You really can't see it well standing on the deck. It's very subtle in many cases I think, making it a tough judgment call.

I've also seen kids kick illegally only in the middle of the pool where, I guess, they think they can get away with it.

Agree, I’ve seen kids trained to do this and as we see, many of the top breaststrokers do this. Also agree we don’t have the technology to catch it at this level but it will be interesting to see if this causes a shift in training at the upper levels that trickles down.

[Anonymous]

We’ve actually been talking about this as officials. During short course we are static and it’s hard to see that in the middle of the pool, but it’s definitely something being seen at ncaa meets and it’s very hard to catch.

[Anonymous]

I just looked through the NCAP Winter Qualifier results and found four DQs (three 15 and over girls, one 11-12 boy) for “downward butterfly kick” in either a breaststroke race or on the breast leg of an IM. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that listed as a reason before. Based on this thread, I wonder if it’s something the S&T judges were on the lookout for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the dirty little open secret of swimming. I guess they're moving in the direction of enforcement but absent technology that only top meets have, is tough. You really can't see it well standing on the deck. It's very subtle in many cases I think, making it a tough judgment call.

I've also seen kids kick illegally only in the middle of the pool where, I guess, they think they can get away with it.

Agree, I’ve seen kids trained to do this and as we see, many of the top breaststrokers do this. Also agree we don’t have the technology to catch it at this level but it will be interesting to see if this causes a shift in training at the upper levels that trickles down.

Trained to cheat? Or trained to kick this way and they’re doing it wrong/illegally? That’s unfortunate if the former.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's the dirty little open secret of swimming. I guess they're moving in the direction of enforcement but absent technology that only top meets have, is tough. You really can't see it well standing on the deck. It's very subtle in many cases I think, making it a tough judgment call.

I've also seen kids kick illegally only in the middle of the pool where, I guess, they think they can get away with it.

If a coach is teaching your kid this at a young age I would run to another team so fast. It’s bad practice. Like driving with two feet. Will catch up with you eventually

Agree, I’ve seen kids trained to do this and as we see, many of the top breaststrokers do this. Also agree we don’t have the technology to catch it at this level but it will be interesting to see if this causes a shift in training at the upper levels that trickles down.

Trained to cheat? Or trained to kick this way and they’re doing it wrong/illegally? That’s unfortunate if the former.

[Anonymous]

It would be interesting to see the footage. Sounds like a natural movement with the glide.