St Johns College - super high drop out rate
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Anonymous
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Data on this is weirdly high .. like only 60% finish. In so many other ways it's a match for DC. But having a quirky kid is one thing, and having a quirky drop out is another. I dont want to protect the downside.
Any personal experience or explanation? |
Anonymous
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If you go to the website for either St. John's College location, you can find the four years of required courses. This may help to explain the high rate of attrition.
After a year or two, I suspect that some think about entering the real world and job opportunities. |
Anonymous
Has your child thought about any career after St. John's College ? As an aside: We just drove around the Santa Fe campus--beautiful location. Dozens of outstanding restaurants and over a hundred art galleries nearby. |
Anonymous
I've known some grads and some drop outs. Medical and law school, politics and programming are big, career-wise. I think it's a school that recognizes that the undergraduate experience is actually an experience, and not just a diploma-making machine. Really smart kids need different toolsets sometimes, and being trained to question and being trained to learn is not a bad idea for some--a lot have already mastered all the technical stuff. I know we're at peak unfashionable now, but these pendulums swing back around, and having a literate population is important. |
Anonymous
| Where are you getting this data, OP? |
Anonymous
| I only know one kid who went there, and he was very smart. And he left. I think the peer group wasn't as strong as he was hoping. He did transfer into a very top school though. If he hadn't had that acceptance, maybe he would have stayed? |
Anonymous
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DS is a freshman. A number of kids drop out during first year. It’s a TON of reading and every student is expected to participate in every class. You do not take computer or phone into class with you - instead you are focused the entire time. DS had top 15 SLAC options and chose STC. I was not convinced but it is perfect for him. He’s also very into the intramural sports there. Dorms are subpar, food subpar and very restricted hours, but it is perfect for him.
Many kids are unprepared for the amount of reading there is and the fact that there is nowhere to hide if they don’t do it. And for math, freshman year all they do is read Euclid. This is not for everyone. But if it’s right for your kid, it’s tremendous. Strongly recommend doing a 1 week summer program there to get a sense for it. Bonus if you end up going, you get $2k/yr aid. |
Anonymous
| so odd that the dorms and, especially, food is subpar. small colleges can usually make those things happen. |
Anonymous
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Most recent 4-year grad rate is 75%. This would incorporate their having lowered tuition and increased endowment significantly.
Use this official data: https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=college&s=MD&pg=2&id=163976#retgrad |
Anonymous
| 67% for female. That's not great. Esp for 6 year data |
Anonymous
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substantially worse in NM.
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=st+john%27s+college&s=NM&id=245652 |
Anonymous
You can go back and forth between campuses... Is that reflected? |
Anonymous
| I think it is. Graduating from either campus is graduating from SJC. |
Anonymous
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I'm the parent of a student at the Santa Fe campus.
What you have to understand about the completion rate is that both the school and the student get to choose whether they advance to graduation or not. Each semester the faculty determine whether they think you should continue there, or not. Some kids get "voted off the island" and are essentially counseled out of the school. At the end of sophomore year, every student must write a major paper to prove that they have what it takes to advance to junior year and eventually complete what is pretty much a senior honors thesis at any other college. It's an independent project and the school standard for passing/graduating is high. This sophomore paper is called the "enabling paper" or something like that. SJC is different from the competitive admissions schools where once you're in, you're pretty much guaranteed to graduate. But they are very good about providing learning resources and tutors. If a student wants to succeed and has the humility to ask for help, and if they're willing to grind hard, they will make it through. But it won't be easy for most. The other thing to keep in mind about the published completion rates is that just a few people can skew the rate because there are so few students enrolled there. It is TINY. I think there were about 100 students in last year's freshman class at Santa Fe. If just 10 individuals leave, it makes a big dent. The school's curriculum is truly intense. I think it's usually near the top of the list nationally for "schools where students have to study for long hours" or something like that. It's both very difficult material (in a wide range of required subjects/disciplines) and the quantity of work is very high. You don't get to avoid math or science because you want to focus on literature. I think they read/work through about 200 full books by the time they graduate and they all learn Ancient Greek and French. I attended HSYP for college and a T20 law school and only during my first year of law school did I ever work as hard as I see my kid working at SJC. I've taught college and grad school level courses at some of the better SLACs and universities, and I can say without hesitation that the school is at the far end of the spectrum when it comes to academic rigor. My sense is that students self-select by applying. But I'm sure that a few realize once they're on campus that they've bitten off more than they can or want to chew and leave. I haven't heard of any of my kid's classmates leaving because they wanted a different curriculum for employability purposes, as someone above suggested. The SJC graduates have very high success rates with admissions to grad programs. Some grad programs, like an MD, might require them to take a straight biology class or something like that at a community college as a prerequisite. But if a kid develops the study skills to make it through 4 years there, they'll have no problem acing a bio or calc class at a regular college and successfully applying to grad school. If they want computer/IT careers they just take the credential courses to demonstrate that they can do the work and get a foot in the door at a tech company. One of my kid's friends left after freshman year. He went to a well-regarded state school for a semester and very quickly realized he'd made a mistake by leaving SJC. He mainly missed the intellectual home he'd found at SJC. Everyone at SJC is into the life of the mind, which is definitely not the case at most colleges, even the ones with low admission rates. He's now in the process of trying to get readmitted. This video reassured me as a parent that this would be a school that truly prepared my child for life and a great career: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH5v2E5QdsE The school's philosophy about the purpose of college and what aspects of a college are most valuable is worth considering: https://www.sjc.edu/about/rankings FWIW- Food and housing in Santa Fe is significantly better than at their friends' schools, and way better than my college offered. It's all fresh food cooked daily on campus by their cafeteria workers. There's no Starbucks, Subway, or Pizza Hut on campus like at some schools. They offer on-campus housing for all 4 years and since all the social life happens on campus, there's no compelling reason to move off campus. Juniors and seniors can live in on-campus group apartments that have adobe fireplaces. Lots of freshmen get singles. My kid had a double as a freshman, but it had two separate rooms with one door that opened to the hallway. He's got a balcony off his room this year with a million-dollar view of the nearby mountain range. The website talks about the campus "balcony culture." https://www.sjc.edu/santa-fe/campus-life/residences-dining The Santa Fe campus was designed by the preeminent architect who created the Pueblo Revival style. Alexander Girard did the interiors of the public buildings. If you're into that look and feel, you'll love it. But not everyone likes it, of course. https://www.sjc.edu/santa-fe/community/alexander-girard If you've got an artsy and intellectual kid who loves to read and talk about ideas and challenge himself, it can be a fantastic experience. They will come out a great writer and communicator whether they want to or not given how much they must write and speak in front of their classmates. It offers a learning community that they probably couldn't get anywhere else. The faculty and staff are incredibly engaged and truly love their work with the students. They are very impressive. Watch a few of these videos to get a feel for what they're like in the classroom: https://www.sjc.edu/continuing-conversation And the students share a meaningful bond as they go through the academic program together. (Every graduate has read almost all of the same books from the school's "Program.") It's a really cool place in so many ways, but only for the right student. |