Christian Terrorists Arrested in Michigan

[jsteele]

Nine members of a Christian Fundamentalist terrorist cell were indicted today in Michigan on charges of seditious conspiracy and attempted use of weapons of mass destruction:

http://detroitnews.com/article/20100329/METRO/3290381/Indictment--Militia-members-sought-to--levy-war--against-U.S.#ixzz0jZoiMZMn

Here is a video the group made:

In light of this event, I thought it would be helpful to review the rules for discussing such groups:

1) Only pinko commie nutjobs like me will call these people "terrorists". In polite society, they will simply be referred to as members of a militia.

2) Even though the group itself says its name means "Christian warrior", nobody will notice the similarity to the term "holy warrior" used by many Muslim terrorists.

3) Nobody will accuse this group of intending to launch Jihad.

4) There will be no Washington Post Op-Eds complaining about the violent streak that is harming all of Christianity. While many Christian leaders will denounce these individuals, there will be no articles that ignore such criticism while calling on Christian leaders to denounce the group. Nor will there be articles that claim that the lack of denouncements (i.e. a lack of denouncements that haven't been summarily ignored) shows that Christianity is a violent religion.

3) There will be no calls to water-board or otherwise mistreat these individuals. There will be no complaints that they have been charged in civilian courts, no one will care they they have access to lawyers and have the right to remain silent. Nobody will be fearful that these individuals are being held in civilian prisons "right here in our communities".

4) Far from this being evidence that the Obama administration is moving effectively against violent terrorists, many on the right will suggest that it is proof of some sort of evil intent by Obama. In fact, on Fox News, this incident will raise more suspicion on the Obama Administration than on violent armed groups that aren't Muslim

5) Rightwing Members of Congress will find it difficult to criticize this group and/or will caveat their criticism with great concern for the group's "legitimate" causes.

6) Leading Conservative websites -- even ones whose founders have recently been hired as political commentators for CNN -- will be suspicious of the arrests. Their members will try to link the group to CAIR, believing that making a Muslim connection will make everything OK.

Please remember these rules in order to maintain proper discussion on this topic.

[Anonymous]

Oh, you took all the fun out of it.

[Anonymous]

I totally agree with you. But it is so bizarre to watch them tromp around the woods aimlessly while Sisters of Mercy plays in the background. WTF?

[Anonymous]

Also, I want to know what churches they prayed at, and which spiritual advisers gave them counsel. And then I want those people investigated, wiretapped, and the other church members surveilled. We should also go through the sermons they heard for the real truth about their motives and how their religion inspired them.

[Anonymous]

And people try to insist that there is no such thing as Christian extremism.

Extremists and terrorists exist in just about every group and religion there is. It's even worse in religions or groups that operate on exclusiveness or think that they have the say on morality and "truth".

Err. Sorry. Not terrorists.... "militia"

[Anonymous]

Some lovely wedding photos:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/for_hutaree_militia_ethos_extended_to_family_life.php?ref=fpblg

[Anonymous]

Wow in her mugshot she looks just as beautiful as the day she was married.

Seriously. I meant that as a compliment!

[Anonymous]

dumb analogy. of course there are wackos in every major religion (that are otherwise reasonably sane and legitimate, as far as religions go). and if this were the 1300s perhaps I would agree with you on the percentages of wackos on each side of the muslim/christian divide. but its not. it is 2010, and I think a dozen nutjobs doesn't quite equal the thousands of suicide murderers over the past few years and thousands more waiting in the wings.

now we can debate why that is the case - why so many more (mostly) young muslims are attracted to the violent fanaticism these days? perhaps it is simply a function of economics and opportunities with nothing to do with the teachings of the respective religions, but let's not pretend there are as many murderers killing in the name of Jesus as currently doing so in the name of Allah ...

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:dumb analogy. of course there are wackos in every major religion (that are otherwise reasonably sane and legitimate, as far as religions go).

Oh yes, I forgot one of the other rules. When Muslims kill people, they are violent fanatics who tarnish their entire religion. When Christians kill an abortion doctor, blow up the Olympics, attack a museum, fly an airplane into a building, send anthrax through the mail, or blow up federal buildings, they are wackos who in no way represent their religion.

As for what provokes Muslim suicide bombers, the greatest factor is foreign occupation and oppression. Religion provides more of a justification than a motivation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:dumb analogy. of course there are wackos in every major religion (that are otherwise reasonably sane and legitimate, as far as religions go). and if this were the 1300s perhaps I would agree with you on the percentages of wackos on each side of the muslim/christian divide. but its not. it is 2010, and I think a dozen nutjobs doesn't quite equal the thousands of suicide murderers over the past few years and thousands more waiting in the wings.

now we can debate why that is the case - why so many more (mostly) young muslims are attracted to the violent fanaticism these days? perhaps it is simply a function of economics and opportunities with nothing to do with the teachings of the respective religions, but let's not pretend there are as many murderers killing in the name of Jesus as currently doing so in the name of Allah ...

No, we should actually debate the numbers. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, there are 900 hate groups operating within the United States. Most of them are white Christian groups, and a lot of them are violent. 127 of them are armed militias. How many muslim extremist groups do you think operate in this country?

[Anonymous]

Why can't you condemn both? You are not condemning the faiths, but people who wrap themselves in the faith for stupid purpose and are Muslim or Christian or other terrorists. And they actions do have consequences. People associated should be monitored and prevented from wreaking idiotic havoc.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Why can't you condemn both? You are not condemning the faiths, but people who wrap themselves in the faith for stupid purpose and are Muslim or Christian or other terrorists. And they actions do have consequences. People associated should be monitored and prevented from wreaking idiotic havoc.

We should condemn both. But, in reality, Christian white males are treated as marginal lunatics while Muslims are treated as representatives of their faith. Nobody ever refuses to stay on an airplane because a white male acted strangely, yet Muslims get kicked off planes all the time (admittedly, so does the occasional breast-feeding woman which is why I support an alliance of Muslims and breast-feeders).

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote: We should condemn both. But, in reality, Christian white males are treated as marginal lunatics while Muslims are treated as representatives of their faith. Nobody ever refuses to stay on an airplane because a white male acted strangely, yet Muslims get kicked off planes all the time (admittedly, so does the occasional breast-feeding woman which is why I support an alliance of Muslims and breast-feeders).

I guess we've been down this road before, but you will note that there is no equivalent to the concept of jihad in Christianity. This, to me, is a material difference. And, of course, in talking about planes, I can't think of the last time "white male" or Christian tried to bring a jet liner down; even leaving aside 9/11, there have been a number of attempts by Muslim terrorists to do precisely that. On such facts, it is not unreasonable that aircraft passengers might be a little more nervous in the presence of Muslim-appearing people acting strangely. I freely admit that all safety concerns involving air travel are pretty much irrational, given the statistics.

Anyway, I, for one, am more than content to say that, if the government's allegations against the Christian Terrorists prove to be true, hang 'em high. Treason should be punished severely.

Of course, the real reason I'm posting is because I really can't wait until you start a new thread entitled "Democrat Terrorists Arrested in Michigan", or rename this one to ensure greater accuracy: ;-p

http://toledoblade.com/article/20100401/NEWS16/4010369

I'm just being cheeky, of course, but seriously, you should reflect on why it is that you would never attack the Democrats or Muslims in a way that you attack Christians and the Tea Partiers. Doesn't seem precisely evenhanded of you.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm just being cheeky, of course, but seriously, you should reflect on why it is that you would never attack the Democrats or Muslims in a way that you attack Christians and the Tea Partiers. Doesn't seem precisely evenhanded of you.

I don't need to reflect. Democrats and Muslims get attacked almost every single day in the normal course of things. When the day comes that Democrats and Muslims dominate the public discourse, I will be in the forefront of attacking them. You should watch Olberman or Maddow with me some day and see how often I get ticked off at them. The powerful have plenty of people to speak for them. They don't need me.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm just being cheeky, of course, but seriously, you should reflect on why it is that you would never attack the Democrats or Muslims in a way that you attack Christians and the Tea Partiers. Doesn't seem precisely evenhanded of you.

I don't need to reflect. Democrats and Muslims get attacked almost every single day in the normal course of things. When the day comes that Democrats and Muslims dominate the public discourse, I will be in the forefront of attacking them. You should watch Olberman or Maddow with me some day and see how often I get ticked off at them. The powerful have plenty of people to speak for them. They don't need me.

Dude, the Democrats *are* the powerful. They control both houses of Congress and the Presidency, and the sympathies of the permanent civil service are generally very much in alignment with the D's. As is the media.