Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

I’m not a psychiatrist so honestly I have no idea. I think this area needs way more study. I just don’t think we have all the answers yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

Sadly, we're not allowed to research what causes individuals to be "trans" because that will promote "eradication." Imagine if we found a successful medical treatment that ameliorated gender dysphoria, making people content in the bodies in which they were born. People wouldn't stand for it because it would essentially eliminate trans people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

Sadly, we're not allowed to research what causes individuals to be "trans" because that will promote "eradication." Imagine if we found a successful medical treatment that ameliorated gender dysphoria, making people content in the bodies in which they were born. People wouldn't stand for it because it would essentially eliminate trans people.

People are researching this…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

Sadly, we're not allowed to research what causes individuals to be "trans" because that will promote "eradication." Imagine if we found a successful medical treatment that ameliorated gender dysphoria, making people content in the bodies in which they were born. People wouldn't stand for it because it would essentially eliminate trans people.

There is definitely political/societal pressure to say “this is not a mental disorder, no research necessary, accept and move on.” I don’t agree with this stance at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

Sadly, we're not allowed to research what causes individuals to be "trans" because that will promote "eradication." Imagine if we found a successful medical treatment that ameliorated gender dysphoria, making people content in the bodies in which they were born. People wouldn't stand for it because it would essentially eliminate trans people.

There is definitely political/societal pressure to say “this is not a mental disorder, no research necessary, accept and move on.” I don’t agree with this stance at all.

Unfortunately as someone who has spent a lot of time actually looking at the research this is true. Often times studies are poorly designed or not interpreted correctly. For example, many studies do not take into consideration the sexual orientation of the transgender participants. Often times what they are noticing in the brain is due to sexuality not gender identity yet they will make the claim a transgender brain aligns more with the brain of the opposite sex.

This is a very challenging area for researchers to explore and studies have been shut down by activists. Good research and science cannot be obtained if only certain results are allowed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

Sadly, we're not allowed to research what causes individuals to be "trans" because that will promote "eradication." Imagine if we found a successful medical treatment that ameliorated gender dysphoria, making people content in the bodies in which they were born. People wouldn't stand for it because it would essentially eliminate trans people.

There is definitely political/societal pressure to say “this is not a mental disorder, no research necessary, accept and move on.” I don’t agree with this stance at all.

Unfortunately as someone who has spent a lot of time actually looking at the research this is true. Often times studies are poorly designed or not interpreted correctly. For example, many studies do not take into consideration the sexual orientation of the transgender participants. Often times what they are noticing in the brain is due to sexuality not gender identity yet they will make the claim a transgender brain aligns more with the brain of the opposite sex.

This is a very challenging area for researchers to explore and studies have been shut down by activists. Good research and science cannot be obtained if only certain results are allowed.

It’s literally out of control. If you don’t fall in lockstep with the ideology, you are labeled a transphobe or a bigot. I have been called a bigot several times on this thread alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

Sadly, we're not allowed to research what causes individuals to be "trans" because that will promote "eradication." Imagine if we found a successful medical treatment that ameliorated gender dysphoria, making people content in the bodies in which they were born. People wouldn't stand for it because it would essentially eliminate trans people.

There is definitely political/societal pressure to say “this is not a mental disorder, no research necessary, accept and move on.” I don’t agree with this stance at all.

Unfortunately as someone who has spent a lot of time actually looking at the research this is true. Often times studies are poorly designed or not interpreted correctly. For example, many studies do not take into consideration the sexual orientation of the transgender participants. Often times what they are noticing in the brain is due to sexuality not gender identity yet they will make the claim a transgender brain aligns more with the brain of the opposite sex.

This is a very challenging area for researchers to explore and studies have been shut down by activists. Good research and science cannot be obtained if only certain results are allowed.

I agree we need more research.

Here was one study mentioned on here before:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29263327/

Some interesting points:
- "After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation.”

- There is a “female brain” / sex typical brain

- “partial overlap between the neurobiology underlying sexual orientation and transgenderism” (doesn’t account for all)

- They may have found a distinct signature in brain structure for GD

- Some results were “at odds” with findings and “more evaluation needed”; had to exclude subjects for wonky data

- This doesn’t definitively say that sexuality accounts for all differences.

- “In conclusion, the present findings support the idea of a distinction and partial overlap between the neurobiology underlying sexual orientation and transgenderism. Moreover, the observed right-hemisphere differences between the transgender groups and cisgender controls, also after taking into account sexual orientation, specifically in the IFOF further emphasize that the signature of GD is related to self-processing and the experience of body ownership.”

[Anonymous]

Please we should do more research on the effects of xenoestrogens and other environmental factors on developing embryos/fetuses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please we should do more research on the effects of xenoestrogens and other environmental factors on developing embryos/fetuses.

^ plus

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“It is a cheap rhetorical trick to constantly pretend, as Trans Radical Activists do, that this debate is the same as the Civil Rights Movement or the Gay Rights Movement. It isn’t, because in those debates, there was no conflict of rights between peoples.” X Shahana Ashur

This was incredibly helpful for me when trying to understand how to frame the argument.

Christians in TN refusing to process paperwork for gay men getting married. Cake shops. All that freedom of religion stuff where people claim their god hates gays.

Yes, and white supremacists had their feelings hurt by the Civil Rights Act.

But none of that is remotely similar to the actual increased physical risks that women take on to benefit the trans rights movement. And in the other two civil rights movements, there wasn’t a new rapacious medical industry whose continued profit depended on the success of the movement. And that is the difference here.

Yes, obnoxious Christian bakers got told to bake a stupid cake. I think most Americans rolled their eyes and told them to bake the stupid cake. That’s not a conflict of rights, that’s some snowflakes being told to do something that doesn’t physically hurt them at all.

But trans rights is very different because women are being and will get physically harmed due to the destruction of women’s single-sex spaces. Male predators (who will mostly be cis) have used and will use enhanced access to spaces they couldn’t previously access. Meanwhile, children and vulnerable adults have been and will be hurt by an industry that is profit-driven, growing rapidly, and repressing any academic research critical of their profit.

I want to be clear: I do not support bathroom bans, or bans on children’s access to treatment. But it needs to be okay to talk about the enormous societal harms that some people, disproportionately the most vulnerable, will pay for the advancement of transgender rights. Right now, that discussion is shut down entirely. Academics who so much as question some of the glaringly weak studies on transgender medical care for children risk losing their entire careers at the hands of activists. Women who speak about physical safety risks face grotesquely violent rape and death threats from trans activists.

All of this is very, very different from prior civil rights movements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

Sadly, we're not allowed to research what causes individuals to be "trans" because that will promote "eradication." Imagine if we found a successful medical treatment that ameliorated gender dysphoria, making people content in the bodies in which they were born. People wouldn't stand for it because it would essentially eliminate trans people.

There is definitely political/societal pressure to say “this is not a mental disorder, no research necessary, accept and move on.” I don’t agree with this stance at all.

Unfortunately as someone who has spent a lot of time actually looking at the research this is true. Often times studies are poorly designed or not interpreted correctly. For example, many studies do not take into consideration the sexual orientation of the transgender participants. Often times what they are noticing in the brain is due to sexuality not gender identity yet they will make the claim a transgender brain aligns more with the brain of the opposite sex.

This is a very challenging area for researchers to explore and studies have been shut down by activists. Good research and science cannot be obtained if only certain results are allowed.

It’s literally out of control. If you don’t fall in lockstep with the ideology, you are labeled a transphobe or a bigot. I have been called a bigot several times on this thread alone.

There have been many bigoted comments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the PP from above and I meant to add:

When people talk about how the trans rights movement is a male supremacist movement, this is what people are talking about. To be clear, I don’t agree with that characterization, at least not as a universal truth. I think the trans rights movement is complex and it isn’t fair to judge all trans people and advocates by the actions of some of the worst activists. But the WA decision is, to me, clearly an example of male supremacy being elevated over women’s safety, and not even because of the transwoman plaintiff. The outcome elevates male access to single-sex spaces over women’s safety; trans rights are just the vehicle by which it is happening. That is inherently a male supremacist outcome.

This is an inherent conflict with non-discrimination. You can't on the one hand argue that discrimination is bad when it negatively impacts women but is good when it negatively impacts trans people. Similarly, there is a conflict between the desire for "safe places" and opposing discrimination because the first often necessities the second. I don't think any of this is limited to trans issues. But, these are complex topics that I don't think will be solved on DCUM.

The other issue is if trans people are excluded from existing safe spaces, they become even more vulnerable than they already are. If trans people are excluded from bathrooms of the gender they identify as, for example, it outs them, and second, it puts them in a room of people they may match biologically but not in any other way. Someone presenting as a woman would be eye catching and stand out in the men's room, and if men should never be in the women's restroom because it's inherently dangerous for men and women to use the bathroom together, how are you not putting the trans woman at risk by forcing her into the men's restroom?

This isn't a trans problem. It's a violent and/or rapey men problem. Maybe that's what we should focus on if we're concerned about men being violent against women. Trans people are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than to commit them.

There is no one in this thread that would debate that there is a harmful epidemic of male violence.

It’s impossible for me to respond to your comments beyond that because I do not understand gender ideology or how natal males become transwomen.

Literally no one in the thousands of comments in this post has been able clearly explain what is gender identity and its relationship to biological sex.

No one has explained the differences between cis males and trans women beyond them making statements about their feelings.

All of my comments are sincere. I genuinely want to know these answers.

I am an atheist and therefore i do not believe in faith-based or supernatural constructs which do not exist in material reality. Gender ideology seems like a type of faith based belief system related to one’s feelings about a hypothetical self which is fully severed from biology. Similar to what Christians call a soul. I know many people have said that it’s entirely separate from biology so I acknowledge that definition may not be correct. Again, please feel free to provide another definition.

So I must bow out of this discussion. I want to thank to people who engaged in sincere discussion as well as our moderator for not deleting my comments. I believe that free and open speech is essential to societal progress and free people.

DP, I posted about this yesterday and have yet to read an explanation as to why having a feeling makes it a reality. I specifically mentioned other conditions such as BIID and anorexia which cause an individual to have feelings or perceptions in opposition to reality. A person with BIID for example may have an intense desire to amputate a leg because their body does not recognize the limb. It literally feels like a foreign object attached to them. How is this any different from gender dysphoria? If doctors will amputate healthy body parts for transgender people why not amputate a health limb for someone suffering from BIID? Why is one considered a mental disorder and the other not? Believing a person really has the opposite sex soul is a spiritual, metaphysical belief not rooted in science.

I am the mental hospital doctor (not psychiatrist) and THIS. I am not a very good writer/speaker and you have summed up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

As a doctor that treats trans patients, what is your suggested treatment for gender dysphoria?

It’s my understanding that most trans people transition and are fine. Aside from transition there is basically people saying, “we know you want to transition but try really hard not to because we don’t want you to do this to your body”.

Sadly, we're not allowed to research what causes individuals to be "trans" because that will promote "eradication." Imagine if we found a successful medical treatment that ameliorated gender dysphoria, making people content in the bodies in which they were born. People wouldn't stand for it because it would essentially eliminate trans people.

There is definitely political/societal pressure to say “this is not a mental disorder, no research necessary, accept and move on.” I don’t agree with this stance at all.

Unfortunately as someone who has spent a lot of time actually looking at the research this is true. Often times studies are poorly designed or not interpreted correctly. For example, many studies do not take into consideration the sexual orientation of the transgender participants. Often times what they are noticing in the brain is due to sexuality not gender identity yet they will make the claim a transgender brain aligns more with the brain of the opposite sex.

This is a very challenging area for researchers to explore and studies have been shut down by activists. Good research and science cannot be obtained if only certain results are allowed.

It’s literally out of control. If you don’t fall in lockstep with the ideology, you are labeled a transphobe or a bigot. I have been called a bigot several times on this thread alone.

There have been many bigoted comments.

And yet, this “bigot” does more for trans people in a day than most of those calling me a bigot will do in their lifetimes. I’m ok with that.

[Anonymous]

Relevant to this discussion, NHS in England has announced updated guidance on prescription of puberty blockers to children.

[Anonymous]

Regarding the suppression of speech in academia regarding transgender issues, the Mayo Clinic suspended without pay a doctor who is a specialist in the physiology of male and female athletes after that doctor was interviewed by the NYT. The suspension letter is below, and the article that the letter references is below that.

https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/mayo-clinic-disciplinary-letter-michael-j-joyner-march-5-2023

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/19/sports/fina-transgender-women-elite-swimming.html

This is what he said in the NYT article that triggered the disciplinary actions, for those who don’t have access:

Peer-reviewed studies show that even after testosterone suppression, top-level transgender women retain a substantial edge when racing against top biological women, according to Michael J. Joyner, a doctor at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., who studies the physiology of male and female athletes.

Men on average have broader shoulders, bigger hands, longer torsos, greater lung and heart capacity and their muscles are denser.

“There are social aspects to sport, but physiology and biology underpin it,” Dr. Joyner said in an interview with The New York Times this year.