Norwood for student working several grade-leves ahead?

[Anonymous]

SAM2, I know the numbers. If you don't believe me, go to the Davidson public boards and post there asking parents of Davidson Young Scholars how many of the kids in that organization are thriving without acceleration in private schools. Ask how many are home schooled because they couldn't find a school that could accommodate their child.

Alternatively, go to Hoagies and see what parents have written there, or talk to any nationally prominent expert on exceptionally or profoundly gifted (not regular gifted) kids at NAGC, CTY, SENG, or anywhere else.

Google "profoundly gifted kids" and see what you find.

Also check out HEROES just to the north of us in New Jersey and the SET subgroup of CTY (there are a few elementary school kids with above 700 on either the Math or Reading portion of SAT exams)

Unless the D.C. area private schools changed their policies these children would be wasting their time and day sitting in elementary school classes ... pure and simple. This explains why many seek intellectual stimulation elsewhere or dual enroll in other public institutions ( including community colleges)

Of course, form a purely balance sheet perspective, these kids represent a small group. Private schools in the D.C. area don't skip a beat not catering to them; however, some of the elite boarding schools in NE (Exeter, Andover and St Pauls) gain some of these kids for their vast and extensive high school academic programs and offerings.

[Anonymous]

You're selecting on the dependent variable. Programs like CTY and CTD disproportionately draw on the gifted kids who aren't getting what they need in school. They don't represent a random sample of gifted (or highly gifted) kids.

[SAM2]

Anonymous wrote:... go to the Davidson public boards and post there asking parents of Davidson Young Scholars how many of the kids in that organization are thriving without acceleration in private schools. Ask how many are home schooled because they couldn't find a school that could accommodate their child ....

I just took a spin through the Davidson boards, and I found dozens of threads where parents are recommending private schools to each other for their highly-gifted children, including even some DC-area schools. I'm sure there must be people who think private schools are not proper environments, but I did not see anyone saying that. It seemed to me that most of the recommendations of homeschooling were for people with no other options, and the most common reason I saw for rejecting private schools was cost rather than appropriateness. (By the way, the discussions on that board are very smart, civil, non-judgmental -- a nice change-of-pace from DCUM!)

I also noticed that Davidson's own qualifications for membership include many of the exact same tests that are used by several DC-area schools (http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngscholars/Article/Davidson_Young_Scholars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx). It seems to me that if a local school has a sizable contingent of students who meet these criteria, then the school likely is teaching on a level that keeps them all occupied. Similarly, on the very first page of the discussion topics, there is a thread with people talking about using Nation Merit Semifinalist and Presidential Scholar percentages as proxies to determine whether a school will be a proper environment for a highly-gifted learner (http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/92103/1.html). Those percentages are a personal project of mine, and it seems several local schools, both public and private, have sizable cohorts of students who do well by those measures.

Examples of threads with parents recommending private (as well as accelerated public) schools for highly-gifted children:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/66925/1.html
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/91091/Searchpage/1/Main/6841/Words/%2Bprivate+%2B+public+%2Bschool+%2Bacceleration/Search/true/Re_HG_5th_grade_What_should_we.html#Post91091
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/88892/Searchpage/1/Main/6656/Words/%2Bprivate+%2B+public+%2Bschool+%2Bacceleration/Search/true/Re_Is_it_really_that_unusual.html#Post88892
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/66011/Searchpage/1/Main/4596/Words/%2Bprivate+%2B+public+%2Bschool+%2Bacceleration/Search/true/Re_Highly_Profoundly_Gifted_Sc.html#Post66011
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/79028/Searchpage/1/Main/5849/Words/%2Bprivate+%2B+public+%2Bschool+%2Bacceleration/Search/true/Re_struggling_with_education_p.html#Post79028
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/77304/Searchpage/1/Main/5718/Words/%2Bprivate+%2B+public+%2Bschool+%2Bacceleration/Search/true/Re_I_m_making_myself_crazy.html#Post77304
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/70939/1.html

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. You clearly care deeply about finding the proper environment for your own children, and it seems perhaps you've succeeded. I just don't see how you can realistically judge or limit the paths others in your situation might follow for their own children.

[Anonymous]

10:12 Sample size n=1

I would love to be in touch with you, but don't want to say more here. I just created the below email. If you contact me there, I could provide link to webpage on private site where you could verify my identity and real email address and decide if your child and mine might enjoy meeting each other. Just if you want to, no pressure.

[e-mail]

[Anonymous]

SAM2: (I am not the poster you are dialoguing with but an interested bystander)

Our DYS9 (Davidson Young Scholar) looked at area D.C. private schools a few years ago. He declined matriculation because the schools could not accommodate his intellectual needs. He is thriving in a public HGC. This option is not for everyone and there are excellent area private schools for the right fit. We are inclined to stay in this track for middle school (magnet) since the private area middle schools do not have the academic stretch our child needs (lack of access to courses in languages, science, computer programming and mathematics at the high school or college level). At the high school level there may be a few more options in area private schools; however, none of them come close to Exeter in my experience. I think Blair Magnet and TJ are comparable to Exeter in the STEM disciplines. We will cross that bridge when we get there.

The take home message for us ... it's not the school per se (one must evaluate each school setting to see if it matches the needs of your child and if you are fortunate to have options you then make the best choice with your child), rather the fit or match to particular student's aptitudes and needs. ]

Many DYS children hanging out in traditional schools (private or public) are not interested in going to college early but at the normal age of 17 like everyone else. We have no interest in pushing our children to College before their time. We also have no interest in having them waste 10 years of their time in classrooms working considerably below their aptitude because that's the way administrators or schools do things)

[Anonymous]

SAM2, you say:
I just took a spin through the Davidson boards, and I found dozens of threads where parents are recommending private schools to each other for their highly-gifted children, including even some DC-area schools.

I didn't suggest that you "take a spin through the Davidson boards." Go back and read my post. Then either take my advice or don't. I have nothing further to say and won't post again.

[Anonymous]

You're selecting on the dependent variable. Programs like CTY and CTD disproportionately draw on the gifted kids who aren't getting what they need in school. They don't represent a random sample of gifted (or highly gifted) kids.

Understood. When you put CTY, NUMATS, CTD, C-mites, TIP together upwards of 70,000 American elementary and middle school kids annually are taking these qualifying exams.

[SAM2]

Anonymous wrote:Our DYS9 (Davidson Young Scholar) looked at area D.C. private schools a few years ago. He declined matriculation because the schools could not accommodate his intellectual needs ....

Many thanks for the informative response. I appreciate your point that particularly with children of this type, it's important to tailor carefully the learning environment to the student. How did you go about determining whether various schools (including HGC) could or could not meet your son's needs? I'd imagine meetings with particular teachers at each school, and discussions about what work your son was doing, and comparing what he'd be doing in those schools. But maybe you had a better strategy. What did you do? Were most schools willing to make themselves and their teachers available for extended discussions (regardless whether you liked their programs or not)? And how old was your child when you went through this evaluation process? Do you think that was the best age, or would you ideally have wanted to do it earlier/later?

Many thanks for the info. If any of this involves detail you are hesitant to post, you can feel free to send me a PM.

[SAM2]

Anonymous wrote:SAM2, you say: "I just took a spin through the Davidson boards, and I found dozens of threads where parents are recommending private schools to each other for their highly-gifted children, including even some DC-area schools." I didn't suggest that you "take a spin through the Davidson boards." Go back and read my post. Then either take my advice or don't. I have nothing further to say and won't post again.

I'm sorry to hear that. I've posted a fair amount of info that contradicts your claim, but I'd still be interesting in seeing any info supporting it. But I'm not interested in taking marching orders to post on some other website to ask for evidence to support your position. If you change your mind and want to correspond further, maybe we can understand each other better.

[Anonymous]

On our tours of schools, when our eldest was 5 1/2, we spoke in private with headmasters/mistresses and certain teachers of all the private schools we were interested in about what curricular program they could offer our child in reading and mathematics based on his assessment (in his application and supporting documents). The responses I received back ran the gamut from program individualization within the classroom, to all our kids are gifted (we do not use this adjective or term to describe our or anybody's children) to we do not advance kids -- either by whole grades or subjects to classrooms with older kids--all our curriculum meets the challenge for our highest performing students. After all the generalizations and self-serving platitudes not one could get into the thick weeds regarding a child, for example, well versed in fractions (multiplication tables were mastered at 4) in their first grade classroom for a year. Only one headmistress in a K through 5 (today merged with another private) provided a tenable pathway when she said the school utilises a block schedule design (Math for K through 5 for example is held at exactly the same time of day) to permit kids to move up or down as needs require. She understood the issues and had a plan.

In hindsight, the psychologist that tested our child was correct. She warned us in advance there were no private schools in the D.C. area (at that time) that would meet or address our concerns as we prepared to leave a public K. She recommended the public school magnet system. New to the area we felt it important to verify for ourselves and go through the evaluation process. She hit it on the nail regarding our child.

[SAM2]

Anonymous wrote:On our tours of schools, when our eldest was 5 1/2, ... She recommended the public school magnet system ....

Many thanks for your comments. Are you 14:01, whose child is at a public HGC? Or someone else? Would you mind describing how your HGC offers proper acceleration to each student? I don't imagine all HGC students are working at the same advanced level in every subject, and I'd even suspect a pretty wide disparity in how advanced each student is in each subject. So how does the HGC ensure each individual child is getting what he needs? Is it through individually tailored lessons for each child in the class? Or via clustering of small groups within the class? Or via placing younger students in classrooms with older grades in certain subjects? Some combo of those approaches? Something else entirely?

Your description of your son's skills seem to suggest he was working at a what Montgomery County curriculum views as a 3rd grade level at age 4 ("multiplication tables mastered"), and a 4th grade level at age 5 ("well versed in fractions"). Is that accurate? Has HGC allowed his progression to continue at that pace -- so, for example, at age 9 he's doing a full algebra/geometry courseload? And does the HGC allow for similar acceleration in other non-math subjects? So, for example, there are 9-year-olds who are diagramming sentences and analyzing Shakespeare plots?

I appreciate your responses.

[Anonymous]

I'm not 14:01, but have had kids in Cold Spring center for highly gifted. We loved it. However, there is not a huge amount of differentiation offered there, except in math. MoCo has such as history of accelerating in math, it is quite easy for them. Still, there are kids who do other math stuff outside of school, so in-school is not neceessarily individually tailored. The teachers teach as many as 25 students at once in the non-math center classes, and so much of the 'differentiation' is whatever the student makes of it. Extraordinarily skilled teachers, but not a program that draws up individual curricula for each kid. What you get is great teachers and other really smart kids, so the environment is stimulating. But they're not having a ssegment diagramming sentences while others are working on basic grammar.

[Anonymous]

Many thanks for your comments. Are you 14:01, whose child is at a public HGC? Or someone else? Would you mind describing how your HGC offers proper acceleration to each student? I don't imagine all HGC students are working at the same advanced level in every subject, and I'd even suspect a pretty wide disparity in how advanced each student is in each subject. So how does the HGC ensure each individual child is getting what he needs? Is it through individually tailored lessons for each child in the class? Or via clustering of small groups within the class? Or via placing younger students in classrooms with older grades in certain subjects? Some combo of those approaches? Something else entirely?

Your description of your son's skills seem to suggest he was working at a what Montgomery County curriculum views as a 3rd grade level at age 4 ("multiplication tables mastered"), and a 4th grade level at age 5 ("well versed in fractions"). Is that accurate? Has HGC allowed his progression to continue at that pace -- so, for example, at age 9 he's doing a full algebra/geometry courseload? And does the HGC allow for similar acceleration in other non-math subjects? So, for example, there are 9-year-olds who are diagramming sentences and analyzing Shakespeare plots?

I appreciate your responses.

14.01 here:
I agree with the last post (from HGC -- CSES) regarding Math as the subject with the greatest elasticity for acceleration in HGC in Montgomery County. The philosophy of a particular HGC is driven by the Principal's (leadership) educational philosophy regarding acceleration.

Since Algebra 1 is required to graduate from high schools in the County the course must be taught by someone with the requisite certification to teach this subject (at least this is what we were told). Most elementary schools do not have such a creature. When faced with a few students who have exhausted the elementary Math curriculum these students are bused to schools with these certified creatures on their staffs (local high schools or middle schools). Families are counselled that grades earned in Algebra 1, under these circumstances, will be part of the high school transcript and GPA when the child enters high school presumably 4 or 5 years later( assumes the child will even go on to high school ... and in Montgomery County). Now, some argue if you require the grade to appear on the child's transcript then perhaps taking the course at the high school level may be preferable since some are of the opinion that the Algebra 1 taught in some middle schools (for political correctness and not flunking out a few kids inappropriately placed -- kick the can down the road until the surprise in high school) may be watered down and the grades inflated. Some principals are simply philosophically hung up on the concept of an elementary student (by age) sitting in a high school class for an hour and thus acquiesce to advancement to middle school as acceptable.

One of our concerns, we have observed in the County, is a strategy of putting some kids on a spinning wheel of pre-algebra, pre-algebra and more pre-algebra until these kids are out of elementary school and safely in middle or high school. This is accomplished by the continual alphanumeric soup development and roll out of repetitive material in the Math A, Math B, Math C and/or IM6, IM7 sequences (ad infinitum) before Algebra 1. This effectively (and in some instances by calculated design) slows the progress of the occasional kids more than ready to move into Algebra 1 after Math A to repeat one more vapid and shallow course in data interpretation, probability and statistics. For budgetary reasons, having a certified Algebra teacher at the elementary school for 1 or 2 students doesn't make much fiscal sense given the current pipeline strategy of teaching mathematics in elementary school. That said, the private schools I am familiar with are far worse. We, therefore, choose the system with the best fit and fill in the gaps.

While having Algebra 1 on the high school transcript (assuming the student elects to go the high school) of a student who took this course (4,5, or 6 years earlier) is fine; but to require it form part of the GPA during the actual 4 high school years is farsical and silly. Why not provide an education for each student commensurate with their ability, aptitude and achievement and worry about high school when a child gets there. Should a student take the high school path down the road let the GPA reflect what courses he/or she takes in high school -- not courses taken 5 or 6 years earlier at the age of 9. Who really cares by then? Universities don't give a hoot what you did at 9. What can you do now ... or for me lately?

Some of these kids don't need a high school diploma to move on to the finest and highest performing institutions in this country. It's simply not required. You are judged by your recent and not remote performance. A piece of high school pig skin is not required to assess one's curricular and extracurricular portfolio.

As for some other non- Math subjects in the HGC, there is a heavy emphasis of reading, writing and critical thinking which our child likes. The social studies and science activities involve extensive research and experimentation (in teams) in class and at home. There are numerous large projects with no restriction or limits on a child's creativity, imagination and exploratory skills. In other words, the child's intellectual and creative capacity serve as the only potential limits for these activities. Music (instrument) and art fill out his curriculum at school.

We find the environment an excellent fit for our child.

[SAM2]

Thanks 12:06 and 15:04. A couple more questions if you don't mind:

(1) 15:04, is your experience on non-math differentiation the same as 12:06's -- i.e., there isn't much?

(2) For both of you, I don't imagine all students are at the same place in math curriculum, so how is math differentiation accomplished? Individual lesson plans for each student? Clusters within the class? Skipping grades?

Thanks again for the detail. I am learning a lot.

[Anonymous]

15:04,

In non-Math subjects there is no significant "grade skipping". Kids are placed in small groups/teams for certain activities (there are two grade 4 and 5 class or homerooms each of 25 students/homeroom in our HGC). There is much interaction between the 2 homerooms at each Grade level. In other words, for a particular grade level there is extensive cross fertilization between the students and teachers in the non-Math subjects. This also occurs for Math Club (in Math Club the cross fertilisation extends between Grade 4 and 5 students and teachers for both Grade levels) For some subjects, e.g. geography, teaching input is drawn from the 5th Grade center. In effect, the homeroom designation within the center is for administrative purposes. My child is exposed significantly to all the teachers in the HGC (2 dominant in for each Grade level, 4 and 5, as well as another specialist for higher Math for a smaller group). My impression of the HGC is of a team of students, teachers and teacher's aids, not rigidly confined to the typical brick and mortar classroom organizational structure, rather with a culture working towards the common goal of a deep and challenging educational environment. All the teachers share the teaching and all students share the learning. There is extensive planning of the week's and term's schedule for each HGC grade on a secure intranet website where parents and students can visually track assignments and projects thereby anticipating when assignments and projects are due. All kids are expected to read (for fun) outside of class and assignments in school and this is tracked by homeroom teachers and parents on a monthly basis. Parents sign off at the end of each week on homework, assignments, projects and the like accomplished ... or not...as tracked by the homeroom teacher. This helps immensely with improving higher independent and executive functioning for the kids (and parents in some instances). It's a much more open environment than the non HGC counterpart we had experienced in lower grades. I don't believe that many students and/or families have time given the rich workload to expect individualized or personalized instruction and homework in each subject. But, the teachers seem very approachable and will entertain curricular fine tuning suggested by parents. I am told the curriculum for all the 4th Graders in the HGC is from materials designed and pitched to the typical 6th Grade level. I care less about the purported curricular grade level rather the content. As long as the material and problems require deep exploration, research, critical thinking; then formulation and final presentation in oral and written format we are quite satisfied with the HGC.

For Mathematics, there are multiple courses offered at each HGC Grade 4 and Grade 5 level in our school. And the kids move seemlessly between the HGC Grade 4 and/or Grade 5 teachers and courses based on assessment and then placement. It appears most of the students are working at least 2 grade levels ahead in the MCPS system. Most offerings are at the pre-Algebra level: Math A( Math 6), Math B (Math 7), Math C, IM 7, IM 7 with Algebra 1 extension. Forgive me if I can't keep the alphabet onslaught straight. A few students not ready for Math A are in a regular Grade 5 math class and the occasional student is bused to middle or a high school for higher math (Algebra 1 or higher). An occasional student in the lower grades, or a regular non HGC Grade 4 or 5 student, with a particular aptitude for math may gain access to the HGC for one of the Math offerings. The lesson plans are generally defined by math placement. But, if repeat assessments proves placement inappropriate kids can move down or up as necessary. These type of decisions require close collaboration between parent , teacher and child to find the appropriate level.