Would free Pre-K in East and North Moco improve the school system?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[/b]I think its interesting how many people here bash immigrants and spanish speaking families. Most of our relatives were immigrants at one point. Many forget that. [b]

I also find it interesting on here how many people push play based preschools with no academics and they are the same ones complaining about the other kids being behind when their kids are equally behind if they don't know the basics and are pre-reading or reading before going to K.

Yes, you’re right. And I’m going to guess that when most of our relatives immigrated here there was no free breakfast and lunch, no universal PreK, no “kindergarten readiness programs” or free school supplies or anything like that. Parents were just expected to you know, do their job.

There are plenty of middle and upper class white parents who do very little for their kids. They send them to play based preschools so the kids don't learn the basics before K. and then say kids just need to play. They don't review the homework or provide any supplementing or support outside of school. They use school as a child care center. They only provide the absolute minimum for school supplies and don't want to participate in the school - our school could not get enough room parents as most expected everyone else to do it. Its pretty sad (though the school is not welcoming to parents so that may be the bigger issue).

I'm assuming you wouldn't want my SN kid in the school system either as he's also a drain to the system (even though he gets minimal supports).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in a school in North MoCo where we have Pre-K. The majority of the students go to our Kindergarten and the data is pretty shocking. It's not good. A few come in knowing their numbers and letters but not many. Pre-K is only about 3 hours a day. The morning class eats breakfast, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and then eats lunch and goes home. The afternoon class comes in, eats lunch, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and packs up to go home.

Is it better than nothing? Sure, I guess. But I don't see the kids who had Pre-K coming into K with any huge advantage over the kids who didn't have Pre-K, especially since absences aren't counted in Pre-K and parents get in bad habits of arriving late and keeping their kids home whenever they feel like it and then act very surprised when those same habits have consequences the next year.

Thank you for an insightful observation. So Pre-K exists but just doesn't do anything... I guess I was comparing it to my DD's Montessori half day Pre-K - I am completely out of touch.

I work at a focus school. Many of the preschool teachers hate the Big Day curriculum because it's too fast paced for their students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in a school in North MoCo where we have Pre-K. The majority of the students go to our Kindergarten and the data is pretty shocking. It's not good. A few come in knowing their numbers and letters but not many. Pre-K is only about 3 hours a day. The morning class eats breakfast, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and then eats lunch and goes home. The afternoon class comes in, eats lunch, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and packs up to go home.

Is it better than nothing? Sure, I guess. But I don't see the kids who had Pre-K coming into K with any huge advantage over the kids who didn't have Pre-K, especially since absences aren't counted in Pre-K and parents get in bad habits of arriving late and keeping their kids home whenever they feel like it and then act very surprised when those same habits have consequences the next year.

Thank you for an insightful observation. So Pre-K exists but just doesn't do anything... I guess I was comparing it to my DD's Montessori half day Pre-K - I am completely out of touch.

I work at a focus school. Many of the preschool teachers hate the Big Day curriculum because it's too fast paced for their students.

"Big Day" is what is followed during the "little bit of academic time"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think its interesting how many people here bash immigrants and spanish speaking families. Most of our relatives were immigrants at one point. Many forget that.

I also find it interesting on here how many people push play based preschools with no academics and they are the same ones complaining about the other kids being behind when their kids are equally behind if they don't know the basics and are pre-reading or reading before going to K.

You’re a racist bigot.

Nobody is bashing immigrants on this thread. I am the PP. I am the child of immigrants. Immigrants who came here legally. Trust me, I don’t ever forget that. I’m not White.

You can deny it all you want, but there is absolutely a difference between legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. I don’t get it. If you want unlimited immigration, why don’t you fight to change the policy instead of encouraging more illegal behavior?

Also not all Spanish speaking families are here illegally. That’s your own racist assumption. Also, there are many Asians and White people who have overstayed visas or whatnot, who are also here illegally.

But regardless, to pretend that illegal immigration is not having a negative effect on MCPS is delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in a school in North MoCo where we have Pre-K. The majority of the students go to our Kindergarten and the data is pretty shocking. It's not good. A few come in knowing their numbers and letters but not many. Pre-K is only about 3 hours a day. The morning class eats breakfast, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and then eats lunch and goes home. The afternoon class comes in, eats lunch, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and packs up to go home.

Is it better than nothing? Sure, I guess. But I don't see the kids who had Pre-K coming into K with any huge advantage over the kids who didn't have Pre-K, especially since absences aren't counted in Pre-K and parents get in bad habits of arriving late and keeping their kids home whenever they feel like it and then act very surprised when those same habits have consequences the next year.

Thank you for an insightful observation. So Pre-K exists but just doesn't do anything... I guess I was comparing it to my DD's Montessori half day Pre-K - I am completely out of touch.

I work at a focus school. Many of the preschool teachers hate the Big Day curriculum because it's too fast paced for their students.

"Big Day" is what is followed during the "little bit of academic time"?

Yes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in a school in North MoCo where we have Pre-K. The majority of the students go to our Kindergarten and the data is pretty shocking. It's not good. A few come in knowing their numbers and letters but not many. Pre-K is only about 3 hours a day. The morning class eats breakfast, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and then eats lunch and goes home. The afternoon class comes in, eats lunch, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and packs up to go home.

Is it better than nothing? Sure, I guess. But I don't see the kids who had Pre-K coming into K with any huge advantage over the kids who didn't have Pre-K, especially since absences aren't counted in Pre-K and parents get in bad habits of arriving late and keeping their kids home whenever they feel like it and then act very surprised when those same habits have consequences the next year.

Thank you for an insightful observation. So Pre-K exists but just doesn't do anything... I guess I was comparing it to my DD's Montessori half day Pre-K - I am completely out of touch.

I work at a focus school. Many of the preschool teachers hate the Big Day curriculum because it's too fast paced for their students.

"Big Day" is what is followed during the "little bit of academic time"?

Yes

Curious to hear more about why it's inappropriate? It seems to be a research-proven program in kids in the New Haven school system. Are MCPS students different in some way? Is the program administered differently? Is the academic time too short?

As a parent who moved to MCPS from DCPS, I think it's important to look at the DCPS experience in terms of offering free preK4 and preK3. IMO, that shift contributed significantly to young parents staying in DC for "free daycare" and once they had committed to the neighborhood, had a decent school experience and kids made friends at school, parents were inclined to stay.

As a parent, even though I am from MoCo, I am NOT happy to have moved back in terms of style of living in the community (too suburban, too car driven). I was not happy to have to pay for preK4. I moved back to MCPS solely for the educational opportunities for my kids (both gifted opportunities and SN support) at a time when these programs were not available in DCPS.

I think MCPS could really benefit economically from free, universal preK3 and preK4 that is all day. Many wealthy parents would still use private nursery schools, but many lower and middle class families would use public. It would really help women go back to work or stay at work, which would be good economically for the county. It also might allow middle class families redirect income to consumption or buying a home, which would also be better for MoCo. Lower class families would have educational opportunity they might not otherwise have, better work opportunities for low SES moms, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in a school in North MoCo where we have Pre-K. The majority of the students go to our Kindergarten and the data is pretty shocking. It's not good. A few come in knowing their numbers and letters but not many. Pre-K is only about 3 hours a day. The morning class eats breakfast, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and then eats lunch and goes home. The afternoon class comes in, eats lunch, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and packs up to go home.

Is it better than nothing? Sure, I guess. But I don't see the kids who had Pre-K coming into K with any huge advantage over the kids who didn't have Pre-K, especially since absences aren't counted in Pre-K and parents get in bad habits of arriving late and keeping their kids home whenever they feel like it and then act very surprised when those same habits have consequences the next year.

Thank you for an insightful observation. So Pre-K exists but just doesn't do anything... I guess I was comparing it to my DD's Montessori half day Pre-K - I am completely out of touch.

I work at a focus school. Many of the preschool teachers hate the Big Day curriculum because it's too fast paced for their students.

"Big Day" is what is followed during the "little bit of academic time"?

Yes

Curious to hear more about why it's inappropriate? It seems to be a research-proven program in kids in the New Haven school system. Are MCPS students different in some way? Is the program administered differently? Is the academic time too short?

As a parent who moved to MCPS from DCPS, I think it's important to look at the DCPS experience in terms of offering free preK4 and preK3. IMO, that shift contributed significantly to young parents staying in DC for "free daycare" and once they had committed to the neighborhood, had a decent school experience and kids made friends at school, parents were inclined to stay.

As a parent, even though I am from MoCo, I am NOT happy to have moved back in terms of style of living in the community (too suburban, too car driven). I was not happy to have to pay for preK4. I moved back to MCPS solely for the educational opportunities for my kids (both gifted opportunities and SN support) at a time when these programs were not available in DCPS.

I think MCPS could really benefit economically from free, universal preK3 and preK4 that is all day. Many wealthy parents would still use private nursery schools, but many lower and middle class families would use public. It would really help women go back to work or stay at work, which would be good economically for the county. It also might allow middle class families redirect income to consumption or buying a home, which would also be better for MoCo. Lower class families would have educational opportunity they might not otherwise have, better work opportunities for low SES moms, etc.

Where does mcps host the free preK? Most of the ESs in mcps are burst in the seem. You need special classroom and may be bathroom for the preK. Could mcps afford to build them? And where? Who is going to pay for it? The tax revenue is declining because MC is not business friendly. Homeowners just saw a property tax hike and would not be able to afford another one. What will happen to all the people who run or work in daycare in mc? Are you going to put them out of job? Most of them will not be qualified to teach in public school.
Everyone wabts free things from the government but who is going to pay? There are nearly 40% students in mcps qualified for reduced and free lunch suggest at least 15-20 % families in mc are not paying taxes at all. Will you be happy to pay more tax so your kid can go to free preK?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in a school in North MoCo where we have Pre-K. The majority of the students go to our Kindergarten and the data is pretty shocking. It's not good. A few come in knowing their numbers and letters but not many. Pre-K is only about 3 hours a day. The morning class eats breakfast, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and then eats lunch and goes home. The afternoon class comes in, eats lunch, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and packs up to go home.

Is it better than nothing? Sure, I guess. But I don't see the kids who had Pre-K coming into K with any huge advantage over the kids who didn't have Pre-K, especially since absences aren't counted in Pre-K and parents get in bad habits of arriving late and keeping their kids home whenever they feel like it and then act very surprised when those same habits have consequences the next year.

Thank you for an insightful observation. So Pre-K exists but just doesn't do anything... I guess I was comparing it to my DD's Montessori half day Pre-K - I am completely out of touch.

I work at a focus school. Many of the preschool teachers hate the Big Day curriculum because it's too fast paced for their students.

"Big Day" is what is followed during the "little bit of academic time"?

Yes

Curious to hear more about why it's inappropriate? It seems to be a research-proven program in kids in the New Haven school system. Are MCPS students different in some way? Is the program administered differently? Is the academic time too short?

As a parent who moved to MCPS from DCPS, I think it's important to look at the DCPS experience in terms of offering free preK4 and preK3. IMO, that shift contributed significantly to young parents staying in DC for "free daycare" and once they had committed to the neighborhood, had a decent school experience and kids made friends at school, parents were inclined to stay.

As a parent, even though I am from MoCo, I am NOT happy to have moved back in terms of style of living in the community (too suburban, too car driven). I was not happy to have to pay for preK4. I moved back to MCPS solely for the educational opportunities for my kids (both gifted opportunities and SN support) at a time when these programs were not available in DCPS.

I think MCPS could really benefit economically from free, universal preK3 and preK4 that is all day. Many wealthy parents would still use private nursery schools, but many lower and middle class families would use public. It would really help women go back to work or stay at work, which would be good economically for the county. It also might allow middle class families redirect income to consumption or buying a home, which would also be better for MoCo. Lower class families would have educational opportunity they might not otherwise have, better work opportunities for low SES moms, etc.

That is insanity. How much do you think universal, free preK3 and preK4 would cost?? Plus, full day? Because that's what kids need - to be institutionalized even earlier.

Any K teacher in the county will tell you that the K day is TOO LONG already. And, those kids are 5. An academic full day program for 3 year olds? No thanks.

[Anonymous]

Comparing DCPS to MCPS is wrong-headed when it comes to diagnosing the "problems."

DCPS was underutilized and middle class white families were avoiding the public schools full stop. Partially in order to attract those families, DCPS used some of their MANY empty classrooms for PK3 and PK4. Combined with a robust charter system, you had parents stay in the city for preschool and then "play the lottery" for charter.

That is not the same problem as MCPS has. MCPS already has plenty of middle class families. The issue is that the county council is so beholden to CASA and other special interest groups that they just keep throwing up new "low income housing" with no plan in place to educate the kids who move into it.

Short version: DC didn't have enough kids to keep the schools open. MCPS has FAR too many kids already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in a school in North MoCo where we have Pre-K. The majority of the students go to our Kindergarten and the data is pretty shocking. It's not good. A few come in knowing their numbers and letters but not many. Pre-K is only about 3 hours a day. The morning class eats breakfast, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and then eats lunch and goes home. The afternoon class comes in, eats lunch, has a little bit of academic time, goes to specials, plays outside and packs up to go home.

Is it better than nothing? Sure, I guess. But I don't see the kids who had Pre-K coming into K with any huge advantage over the kids who didn't have Pre-K, especially since absences aren't counted in Pre-K and parents get in bad habits of arriving late and keeping their kids home whenever they feel like it and then act very surprised when those same habits have consequences the next year.

Thank you for an insightful observation. So Pre-K exists but just doesn't do anything... I guess I was comparing it to my DD's Montessori half day Pre-K - I am completely out of touch.

I work at a focus school. Many of the preschool teachers hate the Big Day curriculum because it's too fast paced for their students.

"Big Day" is what is followed during the "little bit of academic time"?

Yes

Curious to hear more about why it's inappropriate? It seems to be a research-proven program in kids in the New Haven school system. Are MCPS students different in some way? Is the program administered differently? Is the academic time too short?

As a parent who moved to MCPS from DCPS, I think it's important to look at the DCPS experience in terms of offering free preK4 and preK3. IMO, that shift contributed significantly to young parents staying in DC for "free daycare" and once they had committed to the neighborhood, had a decent school experience and kids made friends at school, parents were inclined to stay.

As a parent, even though I am from MoCo, I am NOT happy to have moved back in terms of style of living in the community (too suburban, too car driven). I was not happy to have to pay for preK4. I moved back to MCPS solely for the educational opportunities for my kids (both gifted opportunities and SN support) at a time when these programs were not available in DCPS.

I think MCPS could really benefit economically from free, universal preK3 and preK4 that is all day. Many wealthy parents would still use private nursery schools, but many lower and middle class families would use public. It would really help women go back to work or stay at work, which would be good economically for the county. It also might allow middle class families redirect income to consumption or buying a home, which would also be better for MoCo. Lower class families would have educational opportunity they might not otherwise have, better work opportunities for low SES moms, etc.

That is insanity. How much do you think universal, free preK3 and preK4 would cost?? Plus, full day? Because that's what kids need - to be institutionalized even earlier.

Any K teacher in the county will tell you that the K day is TOO LONG already. And, those kids are 5. An academic full day program for 3 year olds? No thanks.

AKA free daycare. Because people want to have kids but don’t want to pay the money it takes to raise them. Why should they have to when the government can provide it for free? Frankly if the government is paying for anything it should be mandatory parenting classes. Give a man a fish and all that...

[Anonymous]

Isn't the damage already done by pre-k? That's Hart and Ridley study concluded that the lack of early vocabulary in children was never made up later on. Haven't they studied Head Start and found that the initial gains wear off when students hit the wall halfway through ES? They have little background knowledge of anything so once they learn how to read, they can't comprehend what they are reading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the damage already done by pre-k? That's Hart and Ridley study concluded that the lack of early vocabulary in children was never made up later on. Haven't they studied Head Start and found that the initial gains wear off when students hit the wall halfway through ES? They have little background knowledge of anything so once they learn how to read, they can't comprehend what they are reading.

EH, what they found is that the benefits of Head Start wear off *in the absence of further high quality intervention."

So, Head Start can't fix structural inequalities, but Head Start + high quality education does produce better outcomes than no preschool, even no preschool + high quality elementary school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the damage already done by pre-k? That's Hart and Ridley study concluded that the lack of early vocabulary in children was never made up later on. Haven't they studied Head Start and found that the initial gains wear off when students hit the wall halfway through ES? They have little background knowledge of anything so once they learn how to read, they can't comprehend what they are reading.

This. I work with impoverished 0-5 year olds and the “achievement gap” shows up much, much earlier than pre-k, sadly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. There have been recent studies that show any gains made from Head Start type programs are lost by Middle School.

Also, MCPS can barely educate the kids it already has. There is not enough money for the students already IN the system. How will they pay for additional kids? Where will they put all the 4 year olds?

Not a good idea.

There have also been recent studies that show that high-quality pre-K has a lasting positive effect.

The vast majority of evidence out there shows that these programs are ineffective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the damage already done by pre-k? That's Hart and Ridley study concluded that the lack of early vocabulary in children was never made up later on. Haven't they studied Head Start and found that the initial gains wear off when students hit the wall halfway through ES? They have little background knowledge of anything so once they learn how to read, they can't comprehend what they are reading.

This. I work with impoverished 0-5 year olds and the “achievement gap” shows up much, much earlier than pre-k, sadly.

About 9 months before birth I'd estimate.