My 14 year old freshman daughter has a D- in Algebra

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I have to disagree with this based upon recent experiences of trying to get kids into college. Today's colleges (not the one I went to) expect to see calculus finished by the time your kid applies - preferably finished by the end of jr. year, so the calculus grade is on the transcript when your kid applies EA or ED. That means having taken Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry, pre-cal, and calculus finished by end of junior year. One of our kids made it only through the first three but he cannot continue in his major if he doesn't finish calculus at the college level soon. Having learned that the hard way, I am making sure that kid no. 2 is taking calculus now in junior year of high school. I'm not saying that was easy - and he had to take summer math courses, but he will finish calculus by end of junior year - and that is what colleges want to see on the transcript (they don't care what your major is going to be, unless you applying to the rare school, like VT, which require applications to your college of choice at the entry level. In most cases, the only serious review your kids' application will get is a cursory check of SAT or ACT scores, GPA (with notations about breadth and depth of coursework), which are put on front of the file, along with any notes having to do with URM, legacy, athletics. Only if you make it through that cut, will they ever get to your child's essay and rarely will they care about what your kid wants to major in. SO my advice to OP is to hangin in there with the tutor and keep at it - switch tutors if this one isn't working - and work closely with the high school. But if you seriously want her to do well in the college sweepstakes, she will have to have far more than just a D- in Algebra I. And this applies to all colleges for the simple reason: Colleges and Universities don't want to be teaching geometry, pre-calc or calculus. They want the high schools to do it. Often the first question in my first kid's interviews was "Have you finished calculus?". I'm not saying this is the correct way to run our universities but it is the truth: they don't want to have to hire adjuncts to teacher "lower-level" math courses so you really need to be strong on math in the application process and, of course, reflect that skill in the SAT and ACT. So tutor on! BTW, NOVA and your community colleges have math courses, as well. Once our son finishes calculus this junior year, he will take an advanced math college-level course this summer, so that entry will be on his resume, too, next fall.

This is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

No, it's not. All admissions personnel will tell you that they look at the GPA, but most important, the depth of study. So a 4.0 in regular classes (not AP or Honors) doesn't cut it. They cull first on SAT scores and GPA (weighted) and only after you have passed that hurdle will the admissions people get into the file. You have to understand that these schools are getting 33,000 to 35,000 applications and that number is only increasing as international students are now actively in the fray. They want to see a string of AP courses, solidly in math and English, xlnt test scores and all the other stuff. And then they will take only 3% of the 35,000 because the other 3% got in on EA and are legacies, athletes or URM. Sorry, that's just the way the system works now. It's a whole different world than when I went through the system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait, freshmen in high school do Algebra 1? Because at my child's school, everyone has done Algebra 1 in 7th or 8th grade. And we aren't zoned to the best middle school in the DC area.

+1. OP's daughter should be further along by this stage. Algebra I and II and sometimes even Geometry have been pushed down to the middle school level. That clears the way in high school for pre-calculus, calculus, computer math, linear equations, statistics, etc.

[Anonymous]

Algebra is a conceptually new way of thinking and having a great teacher is absolutely crucial. I was lucky I had one, since I'm not really gifted at math, or I would have pulled a D- too. Find her the best tutor you can and sit in on the session so you can see how s/he's explaining things. One thing my awesome teacher did was apply real-life situations (compounding interest, for example) in a way that really crystallized what we were learning. You just can't skate by algebra with a crappy teacher the way you can with arithmetic or geometry. Same goes for calculus - you really need a teacher who can make abstract concepts more concrete.Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Re: comments above, I have a small child now so I'm not aware of what curricular changes have taken place in the last couple decades, but in the early 90s I took Algebra I in 9th grade too. Some concepts had been introduced in 8th grade math, but only some. This was at one of the top rated public schools in New England. Maybe it's different now though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait, freshmen in high school do Algebra 1? Because at my child's school, everyone has done Algebra 1 in 7th or 8th grade. And we aren't zoned to the best middle school in the DC area.

+1. OP's daughter should be further along by this stage. Algebra I and II and sometimes even Geometry have been pushed down to the middle school level. That clears the way in high school for pre-calculus, calculus, computer math, linear equations, statistics, etc.

That is ridiculous. There are plenty of kids who take Algebra I as freshmen, then Geometry, Algebra II, and either precalc. or statistics. Or one of those during summer. Many kids aren't interested in the more intense math track, though they may take high level (AP) humanities classes instead. Not everyone is cut out for or interested in rushing through math; their strengths may lay elsewhere. Blanket statements like yours aren't helpful in the least.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:C or lower is basically an F by previous year standards. You need to act now, tutor, boot camps, quit all activities, ground her etc... she is destroying her future.

You would ground a child who is trying very hard and struggling, as OP says?

What exactly are you punishing? That's no different to me than grounding a child who can't hit a certain time in a foot race or can't master a difficult piano piece despite trying. I'm not saying do nothing, but punishment? She's not DOING anything wrong.

Totally agree, but I think the PP is just a troll. Or Asian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Now a days poor math skills will be a major issue at securing a job. Ironically poor english skills is fine.

Clearly, you speak from experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD also had a very hard time with algebra, but did much better in geometry. We used a tutor once a week, but it was kind of hit or miss if she'd do well on tests or not.

My DD is not interested in a STEM field, so I think it's not that big a deal if she's not getting very good grades in math. She limped through algebra II with a C and attempted precalc the first two weeks this year, but was just miserable.

She's taking a class called quantitative literacy instead and is thrilled with finally learning real world math. She'd always say that numbers and letters should mix and that she knew the quadratic equation but not how to do her taxes. Right now in math she's doing a project pricing out a dream vacation (Italy in her case), including calculating the exchange rate. It's so much more engaging for her.

Same with my DS. He tried precalc for almost the first quarter as a junior and with several different tutors. It just wasn't working and he was miserable. So he dropped the class and took Statistics instead. Did great and really enjoyed the class. Is now at a very good college. Higher math just wasn't his thing, but he did great in all other subjects.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Alot of kids who struggle in Algebra never really mastered some of the basic middle school math (proportion/ratio/fractions, etc.) Might be worth reviewing some of that with her. My understanding of research on kids who don't do well in Algebra/Cal is that many of them have some underlying misconceptions about basic math that get in the way. Focusing on the actual algebra may not be the answer. Hopefully a good tutor will understand that but I would consider it....

Khan videos are quite good.

+1 Please be kind to your DD and help her learn this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I have to disagree with this based upon recent experiences of trying to get kids into college. Today's colleges (not the one I went to) expect to see calculus finished by the time your kid applies - preferably finished by the end of jr. year, so the calculus grade is on the transcript when your kid applies EA or ED. That means having taken Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry, pre-cal, and calculus finished by end of junior year. One of our kids made it only through the first three but he cannot continue in his major if he doesn't finish calculus at the college level soon. Having learned that the hard way, I am making sure that kid no. 2 is taking calculus now in junior year of high school. I'm not saying that was easy - and he had to take summer math courses, but he will finish calculus by end of junior year - and that is what colleges want to see on the transcript (they don't care what your major is going to be, unless you applying to the rare school, like VT, which require applications to your college of choice at the entry level. In most cases, the only serious review your kids' application will get is a cursory check of SAT or ACT scores, GPA (with notations about breadth and depth of coursework), which are put on front of the file, along with any notes having to do with URM, legacy, athletics. Only if you make it through that cut, will they ever get to your child's essay and rarely will they care about what your kid wants to major in. SO my advice to OP is to hangin in there with the tutor and keep at it - switch tutors if this one isn't working - and work closely with the high school. But if you seriously want her to do well in the college sweepstakes, she will have to have far more than just a D- in Algebra I. And this applies to all colleges for the simple reason: Colleges and Universities don't want to be teaching geometry, pre-calc or calculus. They want the high schools to do it. Often the first question in my first kid's interviews was "Have you finished calculus?". I'm not saying this is the correct way to run our universities but it is the truth: they don't want to have to hire adjuncts to teacher "lower-level" math courses so you really need to be strong on math in the application process and, of course, reflect that skill in the SAT and ACT. So tutor on! BTW, NOVA and your community colleges have math courses, as well. Once our son finishes calculus this junior year, he will take an advanced math college-level course this summer, so that entry will be on his resume, too, next fall.

This is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

No, it's not. All admissions personnel will tell you that they look at the GPA, but most important, the depth of study. So a 4.0 in regular classes (not AP or Honors) doesn't cut it. They cull first on SAT scores and GPA (weighted) and only after you have passed that hurdle will the admissions people get into the file. You have to understand that these schools are getting 33,000 to 35,000 applications and that number is only increasing as international students are now actively in the fray. They want to see a string of AP courses, solidly in math and English, xlnt test scores and all the other stuff. And then they will take only 3% of the 35,000 because the other 3% got in on EA and are legacies, athletes or URM. Sorry, that's just the way the system works now. It's a whole different world than when I went through the system.

I wish more parents would understand that if you're looking at colleges that put a lot of emphasis on things your child hasn't done, or isn't capable of doing, it's not the right college. There are plenty of smart kids who won't be on the top track in everything. There are smart kids who learn more in a CP-level class than an Honors class because the pace is better for them. I'm not going to let my kid or myself set our sights on a school that has demands that not all learners can achieve.

Sincerely,
Someone successful who didn't go Ivy, SLAC or any of the other so-called desirable college choices

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I have to disagree with this based upon recent experiences of trying to get kids into college. Today's colleges (not the one I went to) expect to see calculus finished by the time your kid applies - preferably finished by the end of jr. year, so the calculus grade is on the transcript when your kid applies EA or ED. That means having taken Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry, pre-cal, and calculus finished by end of junior year. One of our kids made it only through the first three but he cannot continue in his major if he doesn't finish calculus at the college level soon. Having learned that the hard way, I am making sure that kid no. 2 is taking calculus now in junior year of high school. I'm not saying that was easy - and he had to take summer math courses, but he will finish calculus by end of junior year - and that is what colleges want to see on the transcript (they don't care what your major is going to be, unless you applying to the rare school, like VT, which require applications to your college of choice at the entry level. In most cases, the only serious review your kids' application will get is a cursory check of SAT or ACT scores, GPA (with notations about breadth and depth of coursework), which are put on front of the file, along with any notes having to do with URM, legacy, athletics. Only if you make it through that cut, will they ever get to your child's essay and rarely will they care about what your kid wants to major in. SO my advice to OP is to hangin in there with the tutor and keep at it - switch tutors if this one isn't working - and work closely with the high school. But if you seriously want her to do well in the college sweepstakes, she will have to have far more than just a D- in Algebra I. And this applies to all colleges for the simple reason: Colleges and Universities don't want to be teaching geometry, pre-calc or calculus. They want the high schools to do it. Often the first question in my first kid's interviews was "Have you finished calculus?". I'm not saying this is the correct way to run our universities but it is the truth: they don't want to have to hire adjuncts to teacher "lower-level" math courses so you really need to be strong on math in the application process and, of course, reflect that skill in the SAT and ACT. So tutor on! BTW, NOVA and your community colleges have math courses, as well. Once our son finishes calculus this junior year, he will take an advanced math college-level course this summer, so that entry will be on his resume, too, next fall.

This is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

No, it's not. All admissions personnel will tell you that they look at the GPA, but most important, the depth of study. So a 4.0 in regular classes (not AP or Honors) doesn't cut it. They cull first on SAT scores and GPA (weighted) and only after you have passed that hurdle will the admissions people get into the file. You have to understand that these schools are getting 33,000 to 35,000 applications and that number is only increasing as international students are now actively in the fray. They want to see a string of AP courses, solidly in math and English, xlnt test scores and all the other stuff. And then they will take only 3% of the 35,000 because the other 3% got in on EA and are legacies, athletes or URM. Sorry, that's just the way the system works now. It's a whole different world than when I went through the system.

Sorry, you continue to be wrong.

While it is true that universities that get a large volume of applications often have SAT/GPA cut-offs to ease the process of reviewing applications, most universities and colleges in the US don't get anywhere near 30,000 applications and even fewer have anywhere near 6% acceptance rates. Only 50 universities nationwide get more than 30,000 applicants each year. And the vast, vast majority of universities that get this volume of applications accept a far greater share of them. For example, the top 10 in number of applications received accept the following percentage of applicants:

1. UCLA--22%
2. UC Berkeley--18%
3. UCSD--38%
4. NYU--26%
5. UC-Irvine--42%
6. UCSB--44%
7. Cal State-Long Beach--31%
8. St. Johns (NY)--53%
9. SDSU--38%
10. UC-Davis--45%

If you look at the USNWR rankings of national universities, you will see that once you get out of the top 10, there is only one school that has an acceptance rate lower than 10%--Brown (9.2%). #16 Notre Dame accepts 22% of its applicants. #12 Johns Hopkins accepts 17%. Well-regarded universities like Wake Forest, BC, Brandeis, Rochester, and BU accept more than 30% of the their applicants.

Liberal arts colleges get far fewer applications than major universities and are well known for having more comprehensive and holistic reviews that do not rely on SAT and GPA cutoffs to weed out applicants. These schools not only have fewer applications to review, they accept far, far more than 6 percent of their applicants. This is true even for the very top LACs. Williams' acceptance rate is 17%, Amherst's is 14%, Wellesley's is 29%, Bowdoin's is 15%, Haverford's is 23%. These are all top 10 schools. Moving into the top 20, Davidson accepts 25%, Wesleyan 20%, Bates 24%, Grinnell 35%, Smith 43%.

Even if you were correct about the average volume of applications and the typical acceptance rates, your argument that kids need to take calculus in order to avoid being immediately culled out makes no sense given that when culling occurs, as you note, it is done based on SAT and/or GPA. There is no calculus (or even trigonometry) on the SAT. None, zero, zilch, nada. A student with a strong knowledge of algebra and geometry can ace the SAT and be a strong contender for admission anywhere.

Finally, the vast majority of college students DID NOT ace the math SAT, or even close to it. The average math SAT score in 2013 was 514. There are, literally, hundreds of colleges out there for students who are not gifted in or interested in (or even capable of) advanced math.

It may be different from when you and I went to college but the situation is nowhere near as dire or competitive as you make it out to be.

[Anonymous]

This math track discussion is entirely dependent on the targeted tier colleges. Drives me crazy.

DD had many college choices to pick from this year. She took Algebra 2 as a HS senior in FCPS. She is not SN. I admit she was a bit of an outliner, however ending with pre-calc as a senior wouldn't have been (certainly not nationwide)

She was not and didn't expect to be, a candidate for top 50 National U's (USNews). She is at - we think- a very good out-of-state public.

[Anonymous]

^ oh, and by the way - it's ranked higher than George Mason.

[Anonymous]

College admissions from FCPS for instate are whack.

The PP who is "wrong, wrong, wrong" is expressing the standard FCPS viewpoint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would love to know how good these kids would do on testing and grade if EVERY SINGLE parent stopped teaching at home or paying for tutors. Seriously, I don't think the schools have any idea what a crappy job they are doing!

+1000. Our kids attend private school and the school loves to take credit for high test scores but it's really the parents hiring tutors/doing extra work.

Argghhh... Which one? I don't want to go there!

I'm the one who wrote my kids attend private and the school takes credit for high test scores. Honestly, I think it is common not just my kids school. The major difference between a mediocre school and a good school is that at a good school, parents are more involved/dedicated to their kids education. As a result, the teachers can hold kids to a higher standard. It's really not rocket science though I'm shocked that so many people don't get it.