The Dad Privilege Checklist

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

WHO is saying any of this stuff about mom, though?

I think you’re living in a bubble. YOU expect to be judged because you’re the mom *because* YOU are so judgmental towards other moms.

The rest of us DO.NOT.CARE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

WHO is saying any of this stuff about mom, though?

I think you’re living in a bubble. YOU expect to be judged because you’re the mom *because* YOU are so judgmental towards other moms.

The rest of us DO.NOT.CARE.

Who is "the rest of us"?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/16/opinion/remote-work-mommy-track.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opinion/is-motherhood-a-sacrifice-or-a-privilege.html
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1204050.page
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1203573.page

People judge moms all the time. I don't see a ton of think pieces about dads and their work choices, what they sacrifice and don't, why they don't volunteer/donate enough at school, etc.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

WHO is saying any of this stuff about mom, though?

I think you’re living in a bubble. YOU expect to be judged because you’re the mom *because* YOU are so judgmental towards other moms.

The rest of us DO.NOT.CARE.

Who is "the rest of us"?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/16/opinion/remote-work-mommy-track.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opinion/is-motherhood-a-sacrifice-or-a-privilege.html
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1204050.page
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1203573.page

People judge moms all the time. I don't see a ton of think pieces about dads and their work choices, what they sacrifice and don't, why they don't volunteer/donate enough at school, etc.

Listen, if some anonymous nobody on DCUM is anonymously judging your parenting or hostessing skills, that’s not “repercussions”… that’s nothing.

I don’t see a ton of think pieces about moms and their work choices, either. Not saying they don’t exist, but I don’t seek them out or read them because I am secure in my own life choices and random think pieces have absolutely zero impact on my life or my sense of self. In other words: WHO CARES?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think women just have higher standards and tend to perfectionism. Most of us have a feeling of never being good enough and yes, wanting other women not to judge us. Men don't do that with regard to parenting.
When I took a new job I was crying about being overwhelmed and my husband's idea was to "let it go". "It doesn't matter if the house isn't totally clean, it looks just fine to me." "It doesn't matter if we eat frozen pizza 3 times a week, you don't need to cook gourmet meals all the time." I want my kids to eat healthy dinners and use a clean bathroom! I want him to help me reach my standards, not lower them.

Oh dear. Wanting to eat more than frozen pizza and not having a filthy bathroom is not “perfectionism.” It’s an extremely minimal basic level.

+1, when your excuse for why men don't pull their weight is that when men have "high standards" that equate to basic hygiene and nutrition, you've really lost the plot.

When I hear this, I always wish these men would be forced to actually live down to what they claim are their standards. I think it would last for a little bit and then they'd realize they were depressed and unhealthy, and so were their kids, because it actually sucks to live in a filthy house and eat garbage and not take responsibility for our life.

I know what it looks like based on my xDH’s long vacations with our kid. Fast food or diner food every day, clothes dirty, sunburns (no hats or sunblock), smelling very bad and visibly grimy (no showers for a week).

And I’ll bet the kids have way more fun on vacation with Dad than they do on their carefully curated and controlled educational trips with their uptight mom…

Of course Dad can have fun when he neglects basic everything. Then mom can put it all back together with nutritious meals, haircuts, treating rashes/burns/chapped skin, doing the laundry. THAT is “Dad Privilege,” precisely!

It’s not “Dad Privilege”… It’s a VACATION. It’s SUPPOSED to be a break from normal daily life.

Oh it is 100% Dad Privilege when I pack for them, do all the laundry when they return, deal with whatever weird skin thing resulted. Once he showed up at the airport with our kid’s entire upper lip area from the lip to nostrils caked in dry snot and flaking irritated skin. They have a great time, true, but being the Disney Dad is a trope for a reason, not a defense.

Sorry your picker was broken! No one’s fault but yours.

So it’s not his fault?

He is who he is. You picked him. No, that’s not his fault, that’s your fault.

DP but I hate this argument because it assumes that women know what kinds of husbands and fathers men are going to be. We don't. It's all guesswork. I believe some women have better "pickers" and are better at selecting partners who will show up. But I also don't think it's possible for a woman to fix her picker. I also think a lot of me do an okay job of convincing themselves and the women they marry that the really, actually want an egalitarian marriage, and then later (after kids come along) they are happy to lean into their male privilege to escape doing work. I see it in my husband, my brothers, some of my friends and some of my friends' husbands. It is easy to be like "of course I'll do my share!" when you are 28 and dating a woman you like and being a progressive feminist man makes you seem more attractive. It's very different when you are 48 and you are pretty sure that even if you shirk a lot of stuff, your wife won't leave you because you have two kids together and your finances are all bound up together and she's middle aged too.

Men will woo with "we're equals, baby." They don't always stick with it.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice… why’d you have more than one kid with the guy? Twins?

Blame blame blame. Blame anyone but the actual adult not pulling their own weight.

Blame anyone but yourself for not exercising any agency in your own life. How’s that working out for you?

Sorry dude, you don’t get off the hook that easily. Time to man up.

Eh! Wrong answer, Hans! I’m a happily married woman.

Look I’m not sure what your agenda is here. This clearly isn’t the thread for you since you and your husband are both perfect. Maybe ask yourself what your reason is for hanging out here smugly and $hitting on people?

I don't think there is an agenda. She's clearly far from happy.

Says the woman complaining about her husband incessantly on an anonymous mommy message board.

I’m incredibly happy, but sometimes I DO get bored with all the free time I have not nagging my husband to do pointless busywork or complaining about how it’s SO EMOTIONALLY DIFFICULT to fill out summer camp registration forms once a year. I admit that arguing with dramatic complainers like you ladies is not the most productive hobby, however, I’m just human and I get that dopamine spike reading all your BS.

But I will leave y’all to your victim Olympics now. Good luck in your efforts to change other people!

I actually haven't posted on this thread. Both of my children have special needs, with one child needing a lot of support, and so my spouse and I are actually both very busy trying to keep our heads above water. I'm never sure how much of our experience is normal as a result, but do empathize with a lot of the responses on this thread. What you read as the victim Olympics comes across to me as a lot of people struggling.

I think tone is really hard to get across in an online forum, especially one where so many people are objectively combative. But I do, sincerely, hope that you are happy.

dp I agree pp. The tone right from the start has been very negative. But, I think it is because it hits too on the nose. For me, I lowered my standards and my dh has picked up the slack in a lot of areas.

Most people especially with small kids aren’t OK with big chunks of dirt constantly on the floor.

I said lowered not eliminated!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

WHO is saying any of this stuff about mom, though?

I think you’re living in a bubble. YOU expect to be judged because you’re the mom *because* YOU are so judgmental towards other moms.

The rest of us DO.NOT.CARE.

Who is "the rest of us"?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/16/opinion/remote-work-mommy-track.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opinion/is-motherhood-a-sacrifice-or-a-privilege.html
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1204050.page
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1203573.page

People judge moms all the time. I don't see a ton of think pieces about dads and their work choices, what they sacrifice and don't, why they don't volunteer/donate enough at school, etc.

Listen, if some anonymous nobody on DCUM is anonymously judging your parenting or hostessing skills, that’s not “repercussions”… that’s nothing.

I don’t see a ton of think pieces about moms and their work choices, either. Not saying they don’t exist, but I don’t seek them out or read them because I am secure in my own life choices and random think pieces have absolutely zero impact on my life or my sense of self. In other words: WHO CARES?

Yes, nothing says "this doesn't matter to me at all" like posting dozens of time and typing "WHO CARES" in all caps. You are clearly super chill and secure in your choices. I see that now.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

WHO is saying any of this stuff about mom, though?

I think you’re living in a bubble. YOU expect to be judged because you’re the mom *because* YOU are so judgmental towards other moms.

The rest of us DO.NOT.CARE.

Who is "the rest of us"?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/16/opinion/remote-work-mommy-track.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/opinion/is-motherhood-a-sacrifice-or-a-privilege.html
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1204050.page
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1203573.page

People judge moms all the time. I don't see a ton of think pieces about dads and their work choices, what they sacrifice and don't, why they don't volunteer/donate enough at school, etc.

Listen, if some anonymous nobody on DCUM is anonymously judging your parenting or hostessing skills, that’s not “repercussions”… that’s nothing.

I don’t see a ton of think pieces about moms and their work choices, either. Not saying they don’t exist, but I don’t seek them out or read them because I am secure in my own life choices and random think pieces have absolutely zero impact on my life or my sense of self. In other words: WHO CARES?

Yes, nothing says "this doesn't matter to me at all" like posting dozens of time and typing "WHO CARES" in all caps. You are clearly super chill and secure in your choices. I see that now.

Just trying to educate you, ya know? Help the feminist cause? I consider this a form of community service.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

Maybe venture out of your bubble because you’re right I don’t hear those kinds of statements…about men or women. You must socialize with some very nasty people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

Maybe venture out of your bubble because you’re right I don’t hear those kinds of statements…about men or women. You must socialize with some very nasty people.

The third one is referencing a thread started on DCUM today about moms who don't sign up for snack duty.

The second is absolutely similar to things I've heard people say about moms for being flaky or disorganized. Yes it is mean but also it happens.

My MIL would never say the first one, she's very polite. My own mom would refrain from saying it for a while and then it would come out at some random time. I once watched her shame a woman who was a total stranger over how she was holding her baby (I didn't see whatever was the problem but my mom could have been nice and encouraging instead of dressing this woman down -- that poor mom cried and I think it's likely no one has ever shown her how to hold the baby safely).

I am super skeptical you've never heard anything like this about a woman.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

DP. I don't think anyone is saying that...

I think it was stated a while ago that a women shouldn't be the one doing all the work when her husband's mom comes to visit. He should do it. But then people said but no no no I want to do it or society dictates that I do it or that it's my fault if it doesn't get done. No one said a man shouldn't be expected to do some baseline prep when his mother comes to visit?

Several posters have stated that if he doesn't want to do anything to prepare for his mom's visit, that's up to him and the wife should just ignore it and do nothing. Which I don't get because she lives in the house too? She also cares for her MIL, and presumably elderly woman who is traveling to visit her grandchildren? If her MIL shows up and the house is a wreck and there's nothing to eat, this will also negatively impact the wife/mom's evening, so I don't understand the insistence that she say/do nothing and just let her DH handle it when it is clear he doesn't want to.

I think the point the PP is trying to make is that one should not blame "society" for a man who isn't willing to do something so basic as prepare a meal for his own mother when she visits, but I don't understand that because society is not distinct from the people in it. If a family has a husband/father who refuses to do really basic care work like this, and he isn't roundly condoned by everyone around him (his wife, his mother, his kids, his friends, randos on DCUM weighing in on the situation), then yes, society is giving him a pass. And in this thread, he has not been roundly condoned. Many excuses have been provided and his wife has been blamed both for setting too high standards, but also for letting him get away with slacking. That's society at work.

What’s your point? People on here have complained about not having a solution. A husband who won’t prepare for his mom’s visit is a problem. You can divorce him. You can drop the rope and let the chips fall as they may. You can do it all yourself because you care about your MIL’s visit. But I don’t think anyone has said that a husband who won’t do this work isn’t a problem. He is. Honestly it doesn’t bother me to let his own mother, who presumably had a hand in raising him, see what a waste of space her son is. Society absolutely should condemn him (which I think is what you meant rather than condone, which means the opposite?). So should his mom.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

If your kids resent you and only you because something for a holiday isn’t done, then that sounds like a parenting issue. There is nothing wrong with explaining that their dad was in charge of X and he didn’t do it. Otherwise you are literally raising little jerks who will either be just like your husband or will marry someone like him.

Maybe I missed it when society handed my kids manuals when they were born. I’ll go check under their beds today to see if they’re there. My kids will comment if one of us is sitting on the couch while the other prepares a meal or cleans the kitchen or does other things. Because in their minds, we are both responsible for doing all the work, because that’s the standard we have set.

I feel like you’re using “society” as a cop out for the environment you have created in your own home. I’m not blaming you for the environment your husband has created by being a lazy piece of sh!t. I’m not blaming you for marrying him. But I am suggesting that you take some ownership of what you do and use your voice to make clear how things should be working.

My husband is in charge of buying all the gifts for his family (mother, father, sister, BIL, and four nieces and nephews). If something doesn’t get delivered on time or someone gets something that’s the wrong size, that’s on him. I have never felt one ounce of guilt if a present doesn’t turn out right because it’s not my responsibility to do so! Also, a kid will live if they get a present a few days late. And that’s my problem with a lot of this. People are creating these catastrophic situations where the husband hasn’t done the work he should have done. So MIL eats Door Dash from a restaurant on a paper plate. Who cares?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

My SIL does this. Husband doesn’t care if they have processed food every night, no one writes thank you notes, they don’t take vacations, they don’t entertain, they don’t host extended family, they don’t pay bills on time, they don’t clean their cars etc. Two highly educated successful career people who basically don’t do any of the “niceties.” We went to their house once for thanksgiving and it was on Paper plates and precooked from Costco. I feel sorry for their kids.

Yes this is my aunt as well! My mom is her husband's sister and when we would come over she pretty much said "This is your family so you take charge." So we came to a filthy house and ate pizza off of paper towels. And my mom and her sister crow to this day about what an awful hostess she was. But it was their brother's house too! Somehow it wasn't his fault.

Pretty much all the judgement that this stupid dad privilege checklist is complaining about comes from OTHER WOMEN.

I’ll bet if your uncle went to your mom’s house and was served pizza on a paper plate (the horror!) he’d smile, say thank you, eat it, and move on with his life.

And to the poster who feels sorry for kids eating premade Costco Thanksgiving dinner on paper plates… you’re the problem that you’re complaining about. You’re so concerned about being judged because YOU are so judgmental.

Holidays and hospitality are actually super essential to human society and social ties, which are essential to human well being and happy kids. Nobody says you have to go overboard but it’s impoverished and dysfunctional for your kids never to make any effort - and yes, never do any of the “normal” things other families do. You know, like having a meal with extended family not served on paper towels. It truly truly is Dad Privilege and also rank misogyny to pretend that this actually crucial work tying together people & families just “stupid women stuff

This is ridiculous. Of all the things I can think of that provide joy around holidays, none of them include the quality of the plates I'm eating from. You have created this standard and decided that it is universal. It is not.

Who said anything about the quality of the plates? The issue was not the paper plates, it was the lack of effort to make the holiday feel special and meaningful. You can have a special and meaningful Thanksgiving on paper plates, but not by putting in zero effort and no planning.

"We went to their house once for thanksgiving and it was on Paper plates"

"[We] ate pizza off of paper towels"

"served pizza on a paper plate"

I could keep going but hopefully you get the idea... The quality of the plates was literally the issue being discussed. Welcome to the conversation.

Some of the best times I've spent with people have had zero effort and no planning. Spontaneous get togethers happen a lot and can be wonderful. If you want to spend hours curating the perfect Thanksgiving tablescape, go ahead. The rest of us will enjoy being together with loved ones and not focusing on what we're eating or how cute the napkin holders are.

I was the paper towel poster. Did you miss that I also said the house was a mess? There wasn't even anywhere to sit because the dining table was covered with clutter. We sat on the floor. Also there was nothing to drink except tap water, no side dishes, no dessert. My uncle could have asked his sisters to bring those things but he didn't bother. I remember this thoroughly because I was a kid and I thought it was COOL that my cousins' parents were so laid back! But as an adult I would like a chair to sit in and maybe a can of seltzer offered.

So you admit that when you were actually at this horrible event you… liked it? But you want to complain about it decades later?

There really is no pleasing some of you…

It's disrespectful of others, especially your relatives, not to make them comfortable in your house. Men are allowed to be disrespectful and his wife will receive the blame. That's the point everyone is making.

Does the blame come in the form of a flogging? Or perhaps a scarlet B that the wife must wear forever? Is Aunt Susie wants to complain that we’re eating off paper plates then you can tell Aunt Susie that your husband was in charge of the plates and this is the result. Stop accepting blame. You can’t stop people from saying things but you can stop caring what they say!

If someone at work blamed you because the microwave didn’t work, would you feel guilty about that when it’s not your responsibility to maintain the microwave?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

I mean, if you care the people will gossip about you not signing up for snack duty, that’s a you problem. I cannot fathom letting that take up any space in my mind.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?

This is the $64,000 question.

Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?

I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?

*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.

You are still describing a personal problem. “Society” isn’t giving Dad a pass - YOU ARE.

DP here. You are making my head hurt. How is the PP giving the man a pass? She's saying that he should participate in preparing for a visit from his own mother. She is holding him to the same standard to which she holds herself. I cannot believe it is controversial to anyone that it is okay for a woman to expect her husband to do some baseline prep (modest cleaning, changing sheets, arranging for a meal in advance) when his mother comes to visit.

This is one of the most non-controversial things I've ever heard, and yet it has gone 14 rounds in this thread as though it's some insane expectation. I do not understand. This is normal stuff.

You obviously don’t understand, we can agree on that point at least. Her issues with her husband have NOTHING to do with societal expectations or some made up “dad privilege” BS. Her issues with her husband are a PERSONAL matter. If she truly *expects* him to do this sh!t, then she needs to *stop doing it for him*. That’s like accountability 101.

And what happens when she stops doing it for him and he still does not do it. As in the examples other people provided of families they know where the moms "dropped the rope" and as a result the family simply does not make any effort with guests or holidays because the man did not pick up the rope.

Who faces more negative repercussions for that situation? Mom or dad? Who will family members and friends gossip about as being a bad host and parent? Who will the kids later resent for never making their birthdays or holidays special?

But go on telling me that society does not have different standards for men and women when it comes to parenting or the home.

Answer the bolded questions, that’s literally what the rest of us are wondering.

Mom, mom faces more repercussions. Here are some things you never hear:

"Did you hear what happened when I went to visit my son Tom and his family? He didn't clean, he didn't have dinner ready, he didn't even bother to change the sheets. What an ungrateful son. I don't know why his wife puts ups with him."

"Ugh we don't plan playdates with Dan's kids anymore. He's so disorganized. He showed up 20 minutes late last time and didn't even apologize."

"Did you see that Michael didn't even sign up for snack duty for the after school program? Such a freeloader. All the other dads signed up."

Maybe venture out of your bubble because you’re right I don’t hear those kinds of statements…about men or women. You must socialize with some very nasty people.

The third one is referencing a thread started on DCUM today about moms who don't sign up for snack duty.

The second is absolutely similar to things I've heard people say about moms for being flaky or disorganized. Yes it is mean but also it happens.

My MIL would never say the first one, she's very polite. My own mom would refrain from saying it for a while and then it would come out at some random time. I once watched her shame a woman who was a total stranger over how she was holding her baby (I didn't see whatever was the problem but my mom could have been nice and encouraging instead of dressing this woman down -- that poor mom cried and I think it's likely no one has ever shown her how to hold the baby safely).

I am super skeptical you've never heard anything like this about a woman.

DP. My MIL made a comment once about how I hadn’t properly greeted her when she arrived without warning for a visit on a weekday afternoon. My husband immediately shut her down. Otherwise, no, I have never heard any of these things, nor thought them. You can believe me or not, it doesn’t matter to me.

[Anonymous]

Certainly there are lazy men, but more often than not the call is coming from inside the house. Reminds me of the recent thread where the OP (a woman) was mad that her SIL - not her brother! - didn't serve her tea and sliced cheese immediately upon arrival.