The Dad Privilege Checklist

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[Post New]05/08/2024 14:05
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Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:The list was definitely illuminating. There's a lot of things that don't apply to my family (I would say my husband is honestly better at solo parenting and solo bedtimes than I am)

I do remember one time I asked my husband to do the birthday party invites and boy did he whine and moan about having to copy and paste some some emails from the preschool directory.


This is the behavior that gets me. There's all this stuff I do that DH doesn't do -- arrange childcare, deal with school (registration, supply lists, teacher communication, knowing it's "crazy sock day," telling the school why a kid is staying home, etc.), deal with clothes and shoes, summer camp, etc. I'll try to delegate some of it to DH and he will just be a child about it, complaining about every single step, throwing up his hands in frustration, procrastinating until the very last minute, etc.

So I'm never actually free of these tasks because he makes such a drama out of it if he does it. Often he'll make a huge stink and STILL not actually do it, until the deadline is tonight and I wind up having to help him with it or do it myself in order to ensure the kids get enrolled in camp or they have swim goggles for class or whatever.

The experience is stressful and it makes me think twice before trying to delegate the next time-- do I want to deal with that again? He also just refuses to ever actually own a task. Like I can make him do camp signups with a lot of handholding and moaning one year, but this does not turn into him initiating that process himself the next year, now that in theory he understands the process. I still have to bring it up and ask him to handle it, and if he dies he will need the same amount of help and will complain just as much. He just clearly does not view it as his problem. And the frustrating thing is if I truly dropped the rope and he didn't do it, he also wouldn't view our lack of summer childcare as his problem-- he'd look at me and say "what are we going to do" and wait for me to come up with a solution while taking no initiative.

When I read people in this thread saying "men are better at delegating" I just think about how delegating is a lot easier if you have a competent person with a good attitude to delegate to. It's a lot harder when your "team" is just one guy who acts like spending 5 minutes researching something online or dealing with any paperwork at all is some horrible imposition.


So did none of this behavior show itself before you had kids? My husband and I each had a dog when we started dating, so I was aware of how much effort he would put into taking care of an animal. We went on trips together, so I saw how much time he would be willing to spend researching trips with me. We hosted parties, so I could tell how much help he would provide if we did something like that, including if it was for "my" friends. We spent time with family, so I knew how much he would be responsible for in terms of responsibility for things related to gifts/planning/hosting/etc. What exactly did you do when you were dating?


Two things. First, to be perfectly honest, we didn't have to allocate a ton of stuff between us before kids. We lived together for 5 years and for the most part we both just did the stuff we preferred and it worked out. We had a pet together, but it was a cat, so low maintenance. If I look back on it now, I can see the ways things were unequal then, but because it was never more than I personally could handle, I just didn't notice. Did I put more effort in around the house? Sure, but I was a DINK and it wasn't that big of a deal. It was easy back then to think "oh, well, having a clean house is more important to me so it makes sense I do more." My DH did do some stuff so it's not like he expected me to wait on him hand and foot.

This changed when we had a kid. A lot. We had more to do, period, and things didn't allocate themselves easily. More and more stuff became my job whether I wanted that job or not. I'd try to push back but he'd push back just as far. He definitely engaged in some of the avoidance behavior people have mentioned, like suddenly needing to work longer hours, hiding in the bathroom, and claiming he didn't know how to do stuff.

So second, I really did not anticipate how much of parenting he would deem "my job" because I was the mom. I read the baby books, he didn't. I went to the pediatric appointments, he did. When this would result in my saying "we need to do XYZ," he'd be like "well sounds like you know more about this than me, so have at it." When I'd insist he do more of it, he just... wouldn't. I remember trying to delegate baby food to him, since I'd been "in charge" of nursing (ie doing it entirely on my own). He was reluctant from he start, did not research, did not listen to the doctor when I dragged him to a doctor's appointment and asked her for guidance, and then just refused to take the lead on it. It was like it was someone else's child. And it was -- mine. I turns out my DH has a lot of very gendered ideas about childcare that he never expressed before we had kids and took me by surprise. And then on top this, things were still kind of uneven with non-child-related tasks. But now I have no time. Ever.

If my DH had told me before we got married, "look, I want kids but I don't intend to do most of the childcare, especially during the infant/toddler years. You're going to have to do that on your own with minimal support from me, and if you try to force me to do more, it's just going to cause conflict," I would, uh, not have married him. I mean for sure not have had a kid with him.

So we stopped at one. It's gotten mildly better as that kid has gotten older, but it's still unequal. Once you have a kid with someone, though, that's it. You're in it. We could divorce but I'd still have to co-parent with him. Plus we lose all the financial efficiencies of a shared household -- it would be a dumb financial choice, even if it might resolve some other issues. So here I am.


So before deciding to have a child together you didn't discuss who was going to do what?

I remember sitting down and walking through my leave and his leave and who would be staying home when. Then we discussed what childcare would look like. How we would handle travel. What if the kid was sick? How would we handle holidays with our families once we had a child and were no longer the carefree childless people whose siblings always got their way because they had kids?

Then life threw us a curveball and we ended up with spontaneous twins so we had to re-work some of what we had discussed. And life has continued to throw us curveballs, but at least I know that my husband doesn't view any of them as "my" problem versus his.


GOOD. FOR. YOU.

The point is that not everyone's husband is like this. Why is that so hard for you to get?

Do you want a prize? You win. You have a better husband than I do. Probably you are more attractive, accomplished, and overall a better person, and that's why your husband is a true partner and mine is not. It's probably entirely my fault. Are you happy now?

With that out of the way, I would like to have a conversation about how my extremely not perfect husband consistently exercises dad privilege to get out of doing stuff, and how it makes me tire and cranky and resentful, and whether there is any way to make him stop doing this so that our marriage can be more equal, even though obviously, as I already said, I probably wound up with him because I am a bad and ugly woman, unlike the PP who did everything right and therefore doesn't have this problem.


Um, ok. You want to know how to solve the problem? How about by teaching your kids to have conversations about these kinds of things before they get married? That's one thing you could take away from that post if you were able to actually read it.

There are other solutions mentioned in this thread as well, but you probably missed them because you were too busy being angry at people whose lives aren't as hard as yours.
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:05
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Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:This again guys? Look, we know there are some men out there who do 50% or more. But they are rare. Actual, objective research time and time again shows women do more domestic labor even if they also work outside the home. The whole “default parent” thing is true for many of us.

What resonated most for me on the list is the freedom men have to just assume the mom will handle things. Even if the dad does some of the things on that list 9/10 the mom has set it up or monitors it in some way. I happen to have an extreme version of default parenting that has led to divorce. At the end of the day, it was his complete freedom vs my complete lack of freedom that really soured me, more than the actual work I had to do. Time and time again, being treated like the maid, chef and nanny as he just … walked out the door to do whatever tf he wanted to do … really got demoralizing


You married a dud. The majority of the dads in our social circle are very involved. The moms also work. But in our group, a dud like your husband would stand out. Our bus drop offs and pick ups are at least 50% dads, and many families alternate days like ours does. Dads take kids to events as much as moms do. In fact, the dads take the kids on an annual camping trip. The moms also go on a trip...without the kids. We have a lot of neighborhood parties/events and more often than not it's the dads setting them up and doing the work. I don't doubt that these 1950s-era households still exist in the US, but they are also a relic of the past for many people.


Dp. These are signs that Dad is involved, not that they do 50/50. There’s a ton of day to day chores you’re not seeing.

By your standards, my DH would appear to do 50/50. In reality, he does not. Far from it. DH is not NT, and so our situation is not one of a dud Dad. But even if he was, showing up to events or volunteering, even pickups does not give you a full picture for any one family


Ok, but these people are also my friends, so I know more than what I see at the bus stop. We have at least two families in our group where the dads are the primary parent. Both spouses in those families work (in fact, pretty much all our friends have two working spouses). I mean, if you're going to argue that the only family I can really know is my own, then fine. My husband is an equal partner and nothing like the dads envisioned in that article.


OK? My husband is not an equal partner. We are UMC, I have a graduate degree, and he attended an Ivy. Among our friends with similar jobs and education, I can only think of one where the man is the primary parent. I can think of several where the woman has a higher paying and more demanding job and she is STILL the primary parent. I know tons of well educated, professionally ambitious women who struggle with balance in their marriages, and whose husbands still kind of claim that their job is more central and important despite zero evidence. On balance, the families who can outsource more seem to have better marital harmony, because they are paying someone (in most cases a woman) to do the work that they might otherwise argue over.

The most egalitarian couple I know is divorced. But they split everything 50/50!

Your experience is not everyone's experience.


If you have the time, energy, and mental bandwidth to investigate and analyze the intimate details of the marriages of the “tons” of professionally ambitious women that you know, then your job is clearly not demanding and you are not working nearly as hard as you pretend to be, either at work or at home. Being the neighborhood and office busybody is not actually work.


Then this also applies to the PP who posted repeatedly that she and everyone she knows has a totally committed, 50/50 marriage with no issues, and therefore this phenomenon of men who use privilege to escape doing childcare/housework could not possibly exist.


Who said that?
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:08
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Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:My husband does not do 50% or even close to it. He's not a terrible person but he often defaults to doing nothing, procrastinating, or claiming he can't do things that are child or household related because he doesn't know how, or work is busy right now (I also work, I also get busy).

Some of DH's reluctance to do things absolutely comes from a sense of privilege. He considers certain activities feminine (or at least not masculine) and won't do them. A lot of cleaning activities fall in this category. It's frustrating because he absolutely agrees these activities must be done, but he doesn't like to do them and won't. He is always grateful when I do them. He knows some of them are simply required for basic hygiene. But he will not do them. It is very frustrating. I would love to simply outsource cleaning more often to take the burden off of me but we can't presently afford that without really cutting back somewhere else. So I do like 90% of the cleaning. It's hard and absolutely leads to resentment. We have conversations about it periodically, where I say explicitly that I sometimes feel like I am the family maid or housekeeper (we have small children so this feeling is exacerbated because I am quite literally cleaning up after everyone as I am the only family member who cleans at all). I also hate the example this sets for our kids. Already our oldest has said things like "mommies like to clean" or "we'll get out of the way so mommy can clean" and I HATE IT.

DH also presumes his job is more important than mine even though we make the same amount. When we had kids, we both talked about seeking out more flexility in our jobs, but only I followed through. This is also a source of resentment. I think he likes the idea of being a full parenting partner but when push comes to shove, he is afraid of the judgment of other men when he prioritizes his family over work. He says it's easier for me but it's not -- I get tons of pushback and there has been resentment at times when I've made arrangements to shift my schedule for daycare pickup or taken time off for a sick kid. I absolutely pay a professional price for being the default parent. When I'm also the only one cleaning, this really compounds the feeling that I am alone in making our family work while he benefits from it.

I don't think my situation is that unusual. I'm sure there are people with more equal marriages, but when I talk to friends about my frustrations, they share many of them. I even have friends who are absolutely the breadwinners in their families but still don't feel their husbands do as much as they do with the kids or maintaining the house. These are very common problems.

If my DH were to read this, he'd have a lot of excuses for why things are the way they are. Some of them would align with comments on the thread. But he would not claim that things are 50/50. In fact we recently had an argument about this and he said, "I feel like you won't be happy until we are splitting childcare and household duties 50/50." And I said yes, that sounds right, and he threw up his hands like this was an impossible expectation. Again, we both work FT.

Dad privilege is absolutely real. If I were to really get fed up and divorce him, he'd still have it. Society expects less from men when it comes to kids and the home. And society expects women to fill in the gap without complaint. Even if your specific marriage is different, I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

These dynamics in my marriage play out in millions of marriages in this country all the time. People who are truly 50/50 are the exception, not the rule. There is still a lot of work to be done in changing the expectations of others, the attitudes of men, etc. This is so obvious


The one where the man acts like his job is more important (even though his wife earns as much or more) is classic dad privilege.


Is it possible for one to have a job that earns less but is simultaneously more important? What if mom is a successful influencer making half a million dollars a year and dad is a home healthcare worker making 50K who needs to deliver oxygen tanks to his elderly patients, for example? Is he just exercising his “dad privilege” when he insists that actually he really DOES need to work right now and doesn’t have time to scrub the grout with a toothbrush?


If you can find a family where this is actually the jobs they do and the mom is actually requesting that he scrub grout with a toothbrush and not some much more mundane and realistic chore like laundry, then I will give you $10,000.


The example is (obviously) hyperbole but the question stands:

Is it possible for one to have a job that earns less but is also more important?


DP. I'm not sure the importance of the job is relevant in any setting. The level of work required, however, would be.

My best friend is a teacher. She makes $55K a year. I am a lawyer. I make a quarter of a million dollars more than she does. Hands down her job is harder than mine and she works harder than I do. (Her job is also more important, but again, I don't think that matters).

My husband and I have taken turns being the top earner in our family over time. We've also taken turns being busier/more stressed out by work (and life) over time. The size of our paychecks is irrelevant to me. What matters is what that person is going through. So when he's being yelled at and stressing about a major issue at work, I will see what I can do to make his life easier. When COVID hit and my job became a nightmare, he took on more than his usual 50% of childcare.


I am the poster to whom you are responding, and I think yours is an entirely rational response. That’s how my spouse and I operate as well. If one of us is clearly stressed out or tired or sick, the other steps up and does more because we WANT to take care of each other and make each other’s lives easier and better.

As to the importance of the job being relevant, all other things being equal if one of us is working on a project that actually impacts people outside our family in a meaningful way, then we can agree to prioritize that job or task for a time. Two jobs may be just as difficult and require just as much time and effort, but (for example) if that donated organ is ready for transplant NOW then the surgeon’s job is the priority today.


I'm the PP. The organ transplant example is fair, although I'm not sure how often it would actually come up in real life. But there are times when my husband and I may both be at work but something happens like a kid needs to be picked up from school. At that point we decide who can step away from work and who can't. If we both have calls, whose is easier to cancel/reschedule? Who will have more of an issue making up for the lost time? So of course there are always those determinations to be made, but I think we start with the general notion that if we're both at work, then we're both busy (even if I happen to be posting on DCUM...) and go from there.
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:09
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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.


Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.


“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.


Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.


So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.


So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.


Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?


This is the $64,000 question.


Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?


I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?


Granny cares. Kids notice. Mess and lack of food and lack of planning tend to put people in bad moods and cause unnecessary stress a disrupted schedules. I think women are afraid of having a crappy visit with grandma because no one put in a modicum of effort to prepare for the visit, and if you line up a crappy visit with grandma next to a bunch of other crappy days because no one cleaned or planned ahead or thought about what people were going to eat, you have a crappy life.

It's not about feeling judged by others, it's about wanting to live a functional, enjoyable life by putting in some effort to making it that way, and expecting the person who took vows that you would support and love each other to participate in making that life.

If you don't understand this, DO NOT GET MARRIED.


So the societal judgement boils down to the judgement of your own MIL, your own kids, and yourself. This sounds like a “you” problem.


You behave like this on the internet because if you talk to people IRL this way, they would commit acts of violence against you.

I just want to make sure you understand this.


Honestly I don’t understand. Behave like what? Engaging in conversation?


You are willfully refusing to actually engage with the argument. No, it is not about the judgment if the MIL. Or anyone's judgment. When I plan visits, clean my house, take care of my kids, I'm not doing this to impress anymore me or satisfy judgment. I'm doing it because life is objectively better when you do these things. Everyone is happier, more relaxed, more cared for. Grandma, the kids, me, my DH.

If my DH fundamentally refuses to share those responsibilities, claiming it doesn't matter or he doesn't care, he is making my life worse, regardless of what his mom thinks. It doesn't matter if it's his mom visiting or mine or a mutual friend. It's about taking responsible for your life and relationships and putting baseline effort into family life.

It's not about impressing my MIL.
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:10
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Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.


Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.


“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.


Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.


So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.


My SIL does this. Husband doesn’t care if they have processed food every night, no one writes thank you notes, they don’t take vacations, they don’t entertain, they don’t host extended family, they don’t pay bills on time, they don’t clean their cars etc. Two highly educated successful career people who basically don’t do any of the “niceties.” We went to their house once for thanksgiving and it was on Paper plates and precooked from Costco. I feel sorry for their kids.


Yes this is my aunt as well! My mom is her husband's sister and when we would come over she pretty much said "This is your family so you take charge." So we came to a filthy house and ate pizza off of paper towels. And my mom and her sister crow to this day about what an awful hostess she was. But it was their brother's house too! Somehow it wasn't his fault.


Pretty much all the judgement that this stupid dad privilege checklist is complaining about comes from OTHER WOMEN.

I’ll bet if your uncle went to your mom’s house and was served pizza on a paper plate (the horror!) he’d smile, say thank you, eat it, and move on with his life.

And to the poster who feels sorry for kids eating premade Costco Thanksgiving dinner on paper plates… you’re the problem that you’re complaining about. You’re so concerned about being judged because YOU are so judgmental.


Holidays and hospitality are actually super essential to human society and social ties, which are essential to human well being and happy kids. Nobody says you have to go overboard but it’s impoverished and dysfunctional for your kids never to make any effort - and yes, never do any of the “normal” things other families do. You know, like having a meal with extended family not served on paper towels. It truly truly is Dad Privilege and also rank misogyny to pretend that this actually crucial work tying together people & families just “stupid women stuff


This is ridiculous. Of all the things I can think of that provide joy around holidays, none of them include the quality of the plates I'm eating from. You have created this standard and decided that it is universal. It is not.


Sigh. The argument always goes this way. It’s not just the plates - it’s *everything* that these men would claim their wives are “crazy martyrs” about if called on: the food, the cleaned house, the dessert, finding appropriate gifts, wrapping the gifts, decorating the house. You’d be left with pizza on paper towels on Christmas day, and something random from CVS wrapped in newspaper. Some Christmas!


I go all out for Christmas. I freaking love it. But you're failing to see that your version of Christmas isn't everyone's. Some people would be perfectly happy having delivered pizza that they didn't need to spend any time making and wouldn't even need presents. I mean, never mind that the actual idea of Christmas isn't about presents...
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:13
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This again guys? Look, we know there are some men out there who do 50% or more. But they are rare. Actual, objective research time and time again shows women do more domestic labor even if they also work outside the home. The whole “default parent” thing is true for many of us.

What resonated most for me on the list is the freedom men have to just assume the mom will handle things. Even if the dad does some of the things on that list 9/10 the mom has set it up or monitors it in some way. I happen to have an extreme version of default parenting that has led to divorce. At the end of the day, it was his complete freedom vs my complete lack of freedom that really soured me, more than the actual work I had to do. Time and time again, being treated like the maid, chef and nanny as he just … walked out the door to do whatever tf he wanted to do … really got demoralizing


You married a dud. The majority of the dads in our social circle are very involved. The moms also work. But in our group, a dud like your husband would stand out. Our bus drop offs and pick ups are at least 50% dads, and many families alternate days like ours does. Dads take kids to events as much as moms do. In fact, the dads take the kids on an annual camping trip. The moms also go on a trip...without the kids. We have a lot of neighborhood parties/events and more often than not it's the dads setting them up and doing the work. I don't doubt that these 1950s-era households still exist in the US, but they are also a relic of the past for many people.


Dp. These are signs that Dad is involved, not that they do 50/50. There’s a ton of day to day chores you’re not seeing.

By your standards, my DH would appear to do 50/50. In reality, he does not. Far from it. DH is not NT, and so our situation is not one of a dud Dad. But even if he was, showing up to events or volunteering, even pickups does not give you a full picture for any one family


Ok, but these people are also my friends, so I know more than what I see at the bus stop. We have at least two families in our group where the dads are the primary parent. Both spouses in those families work (in fact, pretty much all our friends have two working spouses). I mean, if you're going to argue that the only family I can really know is my own, then fine. My husband is an equal partner and nothing like the dads envisioned in that article.


OK? My husband is not an equal partner. We are UMC, I have a graduate degree, and he attended an Ivy. Among our friends with similar jobs and education, I can only think of one where the man is the primary parent. I can think of several where the woman has a higher paying and more demanding job and she is STILL the primary parent. I know tons of well educated, professionally ambitious women who struggle with balance in their marriages, and whose husbands still kind of claim that their job is more central and important despite zero evidence. On balance, the families who can outsource more seem to have better marital harmony, because they are paying someone (in most cases a woman) to do the work that they might otherwise argue over.

The most egalitarian couple I know is divorced. But they split everything 50/50!

Your experience is not everyone's experience.


If you have the time, energy, and mental bandwidth to investigate and analyze the intimate details of the marriages of the “tons” of professionally ambitious women that you know, then your job is clearly not demanding and you are not working nearly as hard as you pretend to be, either at work or at home. Being the neighborhood and office busybody is not actually work.


Then this also applies to the PP who posted repeatedly that she and everyone she knows has a totally committed, 50/50 marriage with no issues, and therefore this phenomenon of men who use privilege to escape doing childcare/housework could not possibly exist.


Who said that?


The PP with the comments starting "You married a dud" and "But these are my friends." She has repeatedly explained that her marriage AND those of all her neighbors and friends are equal. How would she know? Why don't you tell HER to stop being a busybody? I was just replying to her statement to point out that not everyone, even UMC professionals, shares her experience. She can say "everyone I know has X experience" and I can say "well everyone I know does not" and it's worth the same.
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:13
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.


Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.


“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.


Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.


So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.


So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.


Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?


This is the $64,000 question.


Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?


DP, but why is this on you if it's your husband's mother?
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:15
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I cannot help but laugh because this is the ultimate bootstraps vs luck conversation but with marriage and Dads.

Some people here insist if you dont have a 50/50 marriage and are unhappy then its the womens fault for not asking the right questions or being blinded.

Some people here insist that their good luck in finding a 50/50 husband who grew into a 50/50 partner (FYI HUSBAND AND PARTNER ARE DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS) was not good luck at all. And is completely their own doing.

There is no consideration for societal issues, family of origin issues, cultural expectations, changes in workforce issues, discrepancies in how employers treat and react to involved Moms vs involved Dads, how schools function as if it's still the 1950s with one parent at home completely available to drop everything, that the data the person keeps showing about how Dads work more hours than Moms still totals up to less hours on all stuff compared to Moms and there is no extrapolation for how much income each person is bringing in. ETC ETC

And the list wasnt inclusive it was representative meaning women experience few, some, most, all of the list with their partners.


I know this post will get either ignored or trolled to death but I just want to take a moment to thank you for being rational and reasonable and attempting to engage in an actual conversation on this matter instead of simply trolling people with "but my husband always does 50% -- did you not bother to discuss this with him before marriage? clearly you are stupid and deserve what you get."

Thank you.


It's not rational and reasonable because it misrepresents what people have said.

Where are these posts?

Some people here insist if you dont have a 50/50 marriage and are unhappy then its the womens fault for not asking the right questions or being blinded.

Some people here insist that their good luck in finding a 50/50 husband who grew into a 50/50 partner (FYI HUSBAND AND PARTNER ARE DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS) was not good luck at all. And is completely their own doing.

Also, no one said what you posted.
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:16
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.


Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.


“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.


Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.


So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.


So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.


Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?


This is the $64,000 question.


Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?


I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?


Granny cares. Kids notice. Mess and lack of food and lack of planning tend to put people in bad moods and cause unnecessary stress a disrupted schedules. I think women are afraid of having a crappy visit with grandma because no one put in a modicum of effort to prepare for the visit, and if you line up a crappy visit with grandma next to a bunch of other crappy days because no one cleaned or planned ahead or thought about what people were going to eat, you have a crappy life.

It's not about feeling judged by others, it's about wanting to live a functional, enjoyable life by putting in some effort to making it that way, and expecting the person who took vows that you would support and love each other to participate in making that life.

If you don't understand this, DO NOT GET MARRIED.


The post that started this string was insistent on society's judgment against women. So yeah, the basic premise to which people were responding was asking where the judgment is coming from.
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:19
quote
Anonymous
I do almost all the things on that list plus the cars, home maintenance and more or I am responsible for outsourcing it. I get flooded with fear occasionally of how the family would function without me if I had some deadly illness or car accident.

I don't feel one bit bitter because I signed up to take this on as a sahm but seeing the LONG list compiled like that made me really sad about how much I belittle my efforts. The kids have really great and smooth lives and I don't give myself any credit but give everyone else credit and in that way, I'm part of the problem of not giving credit where it is due. They have awesome hobbies, camps and social groups but I often strictly focus on the areas that are not the most optimal and how I'm single handedly failing them there. I think the guilt is heavy and I give people, who belittle that labor, power by going along with their views that we must always do more/better.
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:20
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.


Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.


“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.


Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.


So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.


My SIL does this. Husband doesn’t care if they have processed food every night, no one writes thank you notes, they don’t take vacations, they don’t entertain, they don’t host extended family, they don’t pay bills on time, they don’t clean their cars etc. Two highly educated successful career people who basically don’t do any of the “niceties.” We went to their house once for thanksgiving and it was on Paper plates and precooked from Costco. I feel sorry for their kids.


Yes this is my aunt as well! My mom is her husband's sister and when we would come over she pretty much said "This is your family so you take charge." So we came to a filthy house and ate pizza off of paper towels. And my mom and her sister crow to this day about what an awful hostess she was. But it was their brother's house too! Somehow it wasn't his fault.


Pretty much all the judgement that this stupid dad privilege checklist is complaining about comes from OTHER WOMEN.

I’ll bet if your uncle went to your mom’s house and was served pizza on a paper plate (the horror!) he’d smile, say thank you, eat it, and move on with his life.

And to the poster who feels sorry for kids eating premade Costco Thanksgiving dinner on paper plates… you’re the problem that you’re complaining about. You’re so concerned about being judged because YOU are so judgmental.


Holidays and hospitality are actually super essential to human society and social ties, which are essential to human well being and happy kids. Nobody says you have to go overboard but it’s impoverished and dysfunctional for your kids never to make any effort - and yes, never do any of the “normal” things other families do. You know, like having a meal with extended family not served on paper towels. It truly truly is Dad Privilege and also rank misogyny to pretend that this actually crucial work tying together people & families just “stupid women stuff


This is ridiculous. Of all the things I can think of that provide joy around holidays, none of them include the quality of the plates I'm eating from. You have created this standard and decided that it is universal. It is not.


Sigh. The argument always goes this way. It’s not just the plates - it’s *everything* that these men would claim their wives are “crazy martyrs” about if called on: the food, the cleaned house, the dessert, finding appropriate gifts, wrapping the gifts, decorating the house. You’d be left with pizza on paper towels on Christmas day, and something random from CVS wrapped in newspaper. Some Christmas!


Exactly The key here is that people need to be honest with themselves about why they are choosing the easier option.

If you want to have a store-bought Thanksgiving on paper plates because otherwise someone (or someones) have to spend a lot of time cooking and cleaning and that is not how you want to spend your holiday together, that's great! Maybe you want to spend the day playing games at a local park or going to the movies or some other family-focused tradition that doesn't involve cooking and cleaning. In that case, clearly express that to your family members and see if you can get people on board. I could imagine a holiday like that being meaningful and great for kids. There is no obligation to do a traditional Thanksgiving with home-cooked food and a pile of dishes. Maker your own traditions.

The problem here is that the person saying "who cares about the plates" does not actually care about making the holiday memorable and meaningful for the family at all. They just do not want to wash plates and ALSO do not want to get accused of failing to pitch in by not washing plates. So they'll say "whatever, the plates don't even matter [eyeroll]" even though they have no interest in actually discussing what DOES matter or helping to plan a holiday that will be special for the family. They want to do nothing. They don't value the effort that goes into making holidays special because they completely take for granted that someone else will make that happen.


This post is actually crazy. One is not allowed to not care about the plates unless they get sign off (from you, I guess) first after demonstrating that they care sufficiently about other things that leave no time for the plates? So it’s okay to not care about the plates, but also it’s not okay to not care about the plates.


Is arguing in bad faith a full time job or just a dedicated hobby for you?

Of course it's not up to me to decide who cares about what. The point is that this conversation is not about whether you need to have Thanksgiving on real plates or paper plates. It's about the fact that making holidays special requires some effort and actually serves an important social/family purpose.


I'm not the PP so it's not like there's only a single person who disagrees with you.

YOU have decided that you need to put forth some effort for the holidays. Other people focus on being together with family or friends and couldn't care less if every meal were ordered in.

There was a movie years ago where a female character was mad because her boyfriend or husband didn't want to attend a wedding of people he didn't know, but he was going to go along and be pleasant anyway. Finally they realized that she was wanting him to want to go and that was the only thing that would make her happy. I think about that sometimes, how people want other people to have the same standards or them or to want to do something and being willing to do it isn't enough. People like this will never be happy.
[Post New]05/08/2024 14:31
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.


Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.


“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.


+1

If you don't want to make food for your MIL's visit, just..don't make food for your MIL's visit. What is she going to do, have you arrested?


You are confused. The PP wants to make sure that there is food to eat on a day when they will have house guests arriving and may not have time to cook. It's not about not wanting to cook for her MIL, it's about not having to be in charge of making sure that the family has food when it needs food, a planning responsibility that many men might not bother with.

Just like dad might drop the kids off at camp every day, but mom might be the one to start thinking about camp in December, knowing many camps fill in January, and start doing research and pricing things out, then start looking at the school calendar and also planning any travel so they know what weeks they need camp for (all while her DH is like "why are you asking about this now? that's months away? can't we plan this later?") and then making sure she signs up when camps go up so they don't get locked out, and filling out all the paperwork for the camps and getting any needed supplies as they approach. But all you might see is the dad dropping the kids off and think "wow, what an involved dad, he's definitely doing 50%. Maybe more -- I don't see their mom dropping these kids off. Boy is she lucky to have a partner who just totally handles camp for her." This is what people are talking about when they talk about the invisible labor of parenting that disproportionately falls on women.

I would LOVE to be the partner who simply gets to weight in on whether my mother would prefer lasagna or ordering pizza when she arrives next week (while my partner figures out the logistics of either and bothers to think about it at all) or the partner who drops off my kids at camp every day wearing appropriate clothes and sunscreen and with the requisite materials (while my partner figures out literally ever aspect of camp logistics months in advance and spends weeks making sure we have everything we need and the bill is paid and all the paperwork is filled out so that I can just hug my kids and look like a hero while doing almost nothing). That gig sounds great.


You can dismiss the actual labor of dropping kids off at camp if you want, but I prefer to take that into consideration. How much time does it take to research and sign up for camps? Let's say 10 hours. How much time does it take to drive the kids roundtrip to and from camp? Let's say both parents work from home and camp is 15 minutes away. That's an hour of driving each day. So after two weeks of camp, you have both spent 10 hours on "camp." If you also spent another 10 hours doing the camp paperwork and researching and buying supplies, ok. So if your husband continues dropping the kids off and picking them up for another two weeks, then you've both spent 20 hours on camp. I'm not dismissing the labor related to signing kids up for camps or preparing them for it. But you seem to be dismissing the labor of dropping them off and picking them up. Is it mentally less work? Probably yes, although sitting in carpool pickup lines is hardly anyone's idea of fun. But if you want to dicker about whose 20 hours of work were "harder" then you're never going to be satisfied.


Here's a hypothetical for you. Say there's a sandwich business. There are two workers in the business. Both workers make the same amount of sandwiches and that work is divided equally.

But Worker 1 does all the logistical planning for the business. They figure out how to sell the sandwiches, do the budgeting to make sure they are turning a profit, solve problems related to the business's website or figure out what to do when their distributor is out of certain ingredients.

Worker 2 delivers the sandwiches.

They spend the same amount of time on these different jobs. Is one harder than the other? Could the two workers switch jobs easily, and if they did, would they both know how to do the other's job?

Now imagine that that an outside observer to this business sees Worker 2 delivering these sandwiches every day and was like "Wow, you are amazing at running a sandwich business! You work so hard! You deserve a reward." But the same observer sees Worker 1 sitting at a computer doing their job and is like "what do you even do? ordering supplies? processing orders? that's not even hard."

This is basically what you are arguing. The person using critical thinking, problem solving, and logistical skills to get kids signed up for summer camp and ensure they have camp for the weeks they need it and that the kids are enrolled in the right programs (and that they are signed ups early enough that they aren't sold out, which means they though all this through months ago before summer travel plans were firmed up or their spouse had even spent a moment's time thinking about the summer) and also making sure all the forms are filled out and that the kids have all the right clothes and supplies for those camps, is the SAME as the person who delivers the kids from home to camp.

But are they? Are those equal?


Are Worker 1 and Worker 2 identical twins with the exact same personalities, education, and experience? If not, then it may make sense to have them perform different tasks related to their skill sets. My best friend and I have been friends for almost 40 years. We are similar in a lot of ways but we could 100% not do each other's jobs. And that's not due to lack of intelligence or even education, and we actually held the exact same job at one point! But our current jobs play to our real strengths and there is no way we could switch jobs and be successful. So one flaw in your hypothetical is that Worker 1 may have a skillset that equates to being good at handling order, etc., and Worker 2 has a skillset that means they are good at the physical labor part. If they're both working 40 hours a week, and they're both ok with what they're doing, then who cares?

In your hypothetical, Worker 2 gets all the praise because they're the ones who are out and about. Does that matter to you? My husband dropped off and picked our kids up at sleepaway camp about four hours away last year. I couldn't care less if all the parent thought that meant he had also done all the planning or that he was a great dad. I didn't need anyone to send me a medal acknowledging the work I had done in researching and enrolling them in the camp. Maybe you do need the external validation, and I guess that's ok, but I don't think it's universal.

You're saying that using brain power to accomplish a task is more valuable than actual time spent doing something. I happen to disagree. If my husband spends three hours researching a new appliance for us and finding the best price and ordering it and that takes him 2 hours, but then I am the one home when the delivery guys come and then I stock the new fridge with groceries that we ordered jointly and were delivered when I was home and that takes me 2 hours, does he get more credit for the fridge than I do? Why?

I get that some things can take equal amounts of time but have different effects. For example, spending two hours sitting in my car doing crossword puzzles and listening to an audiobook is not the same (nor as draining) as spending two hours making small talk with people I barely know on the sidelines of a kid's soccer game. But for my husband the reverse could be true - what if he were an extrovert and the idea of chit chatting with other parents sounded exciting but the idea of sitting in the car waiting sounded miserable? You can't use two different metrics to compare things and then complain that nothing is ever equal. Or rather, you can, but it sounds like you'll just make yourself miserable.


One task is brain power, stress/accountability, PLUS time.

The other is mostly just time.

If the person doing all the planning and logistics screws up, they might wind up without childcare for the summer, spending twice as much money as they want to, or dealing with a super long commute to camp. If they miss deadlines, fail to follow up with paperwork, don't price compare, etc., there are major consequences for the family. Even one seemingly small mistake could be costly.

The person driving kids to camp would either have to make a catastrophic mistake (car accident) or make the same mistake over and over and over to have the same negative impact. Even if they were late every single day to camp... Oh well.

And your example with your friend doesn't make sense in this context. Sure, two experienced professionals could not easily trade places in different jobs. They both do specialized work that requires special skills and experience. But driving kids to camp is not that. Likely either parent is capable of doing that. But the person doing planning/logistics/budgeting is less easily replaced.

The planning job is more important than the driving job. Yet it is often ignored or discounted as imaginary so that if you ONLY focus on the more straightforward, visible aspects of parenting, it appears both partners are doing roughly equal work. But they are not. One is doing this vital, challenging, stressful piece without acknowledgement. Thus: inequality.


OK, so what's your perfect scenario? Simple time equals 1 and time plus brain power equals 1.5, so someone needs to spend 6 hours driving if the other person spends 4 hours researching? But what if one spouse really hates driving? Let's say they have anxiety and being on the road is super stressful for them. Meanwhile, they love researching and planning and find it fun. How do we account for that?

My point with my friend actually didn't have anything to do with special skills and experience, it's a personality thing. I COULD do her job, but I would HATE it. And vice versa. This would have been true straight out of college with the exact same skillset and education (which we had when we were at the same job).

Everyone's set up is going to look different because each marriage contains two different people. You seem to want to the forward-facing position where people SEE you doing things. Personally, I don't care how much other people think I do, but if it matters to you I am not dismissing it. So I guess your problem is that you don't get to choose which part of the camp you do? You want to do the drop off and pick up because you deem those tasks as easier but your husband also wants to do them? So you're left doing the research and registration because if you don't, your kids won't go to camp? That sucks, seriously, and I'm sorry you're in that spot.

Could you then at least try to task your husband with more of the other stuff to offset the time you spend doing the invisible work? So you spend 4 hours researching and that means he has to spend 6 hours driving. Would that make you feel like things are more equal? I'm asking that sincerely, not as a jab. I think people need different things from their spouses (and family and friends and work, etc.). If you're driving the ship, which it sounds like you are, can you think of a scenario in which you would be less unhappy about the split of things?
[Post New]05/08/2024 15:15
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Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.


Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.


“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.


Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.


So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.


So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.


Maybe it's your binary thinking that's the problem. If my husband said his mom was coming to visit I'd probably ask what I could to do help him get things ready for her. If it was a mutual friend, I would probably approach it differently and say what can we each do to get ready for this visit, assuming we are both equally responsible for the visit.

We throw a big party every year in December. My husband would probably be fine if we didn't throw the party from his own perspective, but he appreciates that our kids enjoy it. So we sit down and discuss all the things that need to happen for the party and then decide who is doing what. If one person's tasks end up being easier, than that person will help the other with their list.

But if my MIL comes to visit, I am absolutely not taking on being the default planner for that. I can offer to help or my husband can ask me to help, but I'm not going to begrudgingly do it all because "society" thinks it's my fault if we don't have a nice dinner when she arrives. Who is this "society" anyway? Are they sending you postcards chastising you for the house being messy when your MIL showed up?


This is the $64,000 question.


Are you really going to the mat to claim it’s acceptable to host your child’s grandmother on dirty sheets with no food?


I am going to claim that if other people do that I would not even know about it and I certainly don’t care.

So who DOES care? What are the consequences if one hosts granny in an “unacceptable” manner? Who imposes those consequences? Who or what are you so afraid of?


*I* care. It’s not nice to treat a guest (your own child’s grandma!) like crap in your own homes. Those of us with a conscience can’t do it. So we end up taking care of it. Score 1, Dad Privilege.
[Post New]05/08/2024 15:21
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.


Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.


“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.


+1

If you don't want to make food for your MIL's visit, just..don't make food for your MIL's visit. What is she going to do, have you arrested?


It’s a real d*ck move not to even attempt to host your own mother via (checks notes) providing a hot meal - and moreover to call your wife “crazy” for wanting to do so. y’all are being either truly dysfunctional or totally dishonest.


So let your husband be a d*ck. Why are you making that your problem?


Look, you are so far out of the realm of normal, basic functioning family life that it’s almost pointless. In normal families you do normal things, like put a hot meal on the table when Grandma comes to visit. Dad privilege is assuming Mom will take care of it. Personality disorder is trashing your wife for *wanting to make YOUR mom a hot meal*, and claiming that it’s totally made up work and she’s an idiot for having such high standards.


I'm not the PP to whom you are responding, but you are the one who seems out of the realm of normal.

Feeding grandma is a basic standard, we can all agree on that. But if my husband wants grandma to eat her favorite dumplings for dinner, then he can make them (or order them, I don't care). If the wife is the one who wants to make grandma her favorite dumplings, then fine. But don't say you're doing it because that's what has to happen. That's what you want to do.


In normal families where the Dad at least makes an attempt, they jointly acknowledge that hosting grandma is good for the entire family and work to do it together to some degree. You’re not disproving “dad privilege” at all to say “well, just let her sleep on dirty sheets and eat off paper towels.”


Who said anything about disproving dad privilege? What about combating it? That's the point of these posts.


dad privilege should be combatted by men. that’s the point. if you feel uncomfortable with that ask yourself why.
[Post New]05/08/2024 15:25
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.


Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.


“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.


Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.


So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.


My SIL does this. Husband doesn’t care if they have processed food every night, no one writes thank you notes, they don’t take vacations, they don’t entertain, they don’t host extended family, they don’t pay bills on time, they don’t clean their cars etc. Two highly educated successful career people who basically don’t do any of the “niceties.” We went to their house once for thanksgiving and it was on Paper plates and precooked from Costco. I feel sorry for their kids.


Yes this is my aunt as well! My mom is her husband's sister and when we would come over she pretty much said "This is your family so you take charge." So we came to a filthy house and ate pizza off of paper towels. And my mom and her sister crow to this day about what an awful hostess she was. But it was their brother's house too! Somehow it wasn't his fault.


Pretty much all the judgement that this stupid dad privilege checklist is complaining about comes from OTHER WOMEN.

I’ll bet if your uncle went to your mom’s house and was served pizza on a paper plate (the horror!) he’d smile, say thank you, eat it, and move on with his life.

And to the poster who feels sorry for kids eating premade Costco Thanksgiving dinner on paper plates… you’re the problem that you’re complaining about. You’re so concerned about being judged because YOU are so judgmental.


Holidays and hospitality are actually super essential to human society and social ties, which are essential to human well being and happy kids. Nobody says you have to go overboard but it’s impoverished and dysfunctional for your kids never to make any effort - and yes, never do any of the “normal” things other families do. You know, like having a meal with extended family not served on paper towels. It truly truly is Dad Privilege and also rank misogyny to pretend that this actually crucial work tying together people & families just “stupid women stuff


This is ridiculous. Of all the things I can think of that provide joy around holidays, none of them include the quality of the plates I'm eating from. You have created this standard and decided that it is universal. It is not.


Sigh. The argument always goes this way. It’s not just the plates - it’s *everything* that these men would claim their wives are “crazy martyrs” about if called on: the food, the cleaned house, the dessert, finding appropriate gifts, wrapping the gifts, decorating the house. You’d be left with pizza on paper towels on Christmas day, and something random from CVS wrapped in newspaper. Some Christmas!


Exactly The key here is that people need to be honest with themselves about why they are choosing the easier option.

If you want to have a store-bought Thanksgiving on paper plates because otherwise someone (or someones) have to spend a lot of time cooking and cleaning and that is not how you want to spend your holiday together, that's great! Maybe you want to spend the day playing games at a local park or going to the movies or some other family-focused tradition that doesn't involve cooking and cleaning. In that case, clearly express that to your family members and see if you can get people on board. I could imagine a holiday like that being meaningful and great for kids. There is no obligation to do a traditional Thanksgiving with home-cooked food and a pile of dishes. Maker your own traditions.

The problem here is that the person saying "who cares about the plates" does not actually care about making the holiday memorable and meaningful for the family at all. They just do not want to wash plates and ALSO do not want to get accused of failing to pitch in by not washing plates. So they'll say "whatever, the plates don't even matter [eyeroll]" even though they have no interest in actually discussing what DOES matter or helping to plan a holiday that will be special for the family. They want to do nothing. They don't value the effort that goes into making holidays special because they completely take for granted that someone else will make that happen.


This post is actually crazy. One is not allowed to not care about the plates unless they get sign off (from you, I guess) first after demonstrating that they care sufficiently about other things that leave no time for the plates? So it’s okay to not care about the plates, but also it’s not okay to not care about the plates.


Is arguing in bad faith a full time job or just a dedicated hobby for you?

Of course it's not up to me to decide who cares about what. The point is that this conversation is not about whether you need to have Thanksgiving on real plates or paper plates. It's about the fact that making holidays special requires some effort and actually serves an important social/family purpose.


I'm not the PP so it's not like there's only a single person who disagrees with you.

YOU have decided that you need to put forth some effort for the holidays. Other people focus on being together with family or friends and couldn't care less if every meal were ordered in.

There was a movie years ago where a female character was mad because her boyfriend or husband didn't want to attend a wedding of people he didn't know, but he was going to go along and be pleasant anyway. Finally they realized that she was wanting him to want to go and that was the only thing that would make her happy. I think about that sometimes, how people want other people to have the same standards or them or to want to do something and being willing to do it isn't enough. People like this will never be happy.


oh just stfu. everyone knows that hosting takes effort even supposedly “casual unplanned” hosting. ask yourself why you are insisting absurdly that something that is a basic ritual common to every human society (even defining culture in some ways) is suddenly just something dumb women made up?
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