The Cass Review Final Report

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You’re objecting to the idea that the parents of these kids are validating their kids feelings and you think they should be putting kids in conversion therapy instead.

You feel the best way to handle your child’s transgenderism is by validating your child’s feelings, is that correct? Your born male child said he felt like he was really a girl so you followed the course of action to validate her feelings that she was really a girl. You helped her medically transition to a girl. Correct?

Is your child neurodiverse or has any mental health issues?

What if your child had come to you instead and said “I hate my body because I’m too fat” even though they were skinny? What if they really, truly believed they were fat even though they weren’t? Would you have affirmed their feelings and help them lose more weight? What if being dangerously skinny made them happier?

What if your child came to you and said “I hate myself because I’m such a loser”? Would you affirm that they were a loser? Your child really, truly felt they were a loser. How far would you go in affirming their feelings?

I’m going to assume you wouldn’t affirm your child’s feelings in the above cases. Why not? Why is it okay to affirm your child’s feelings they are wrong gender but not other negative feelings they have?

Not the pp you replied to. Why are you calling feeling like you're the other gender a negative feeling? To me, it isn't.

Precisely. Men are free to wear makeup and listen show-tunes. Women and girls are free to shave their heads and enjoy wood-working.

What’s negative is confusing stereotypes and biological sex and misleading a child that they “transition” their sex, which is not humanly possible.

And people are free to transition to the gender they identify with.

It’s not about “stereotypes”.

Sex is biology. Gender is stereotypes.

If it’s about changing gender, why is the treatment changing sex? (Which is not possible).

Nobody is trying to change their DNA or swap out their gonads.

DP

But they’re surgically altering their genitalia.

And why the eye roll? They are literally trying to physically become the opposite sex.

You can’t become the opposite sex. You’ll always be xx or xy. There are superficial changes to align with a certain gender but that doesn’t change your sex.

You may think you’re XX or XY, but do you actually know it about yourself—have you been karyotyped?

For that matter, on what basis are you sure about this regarding humans as a group?

https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/12/6/750/5823304

Holy fückballs did you even read that study? Because unless you’re fungi, or a reptile, or a puffer fish, this study doesn’t apply here. This study does not include humans.

What evidence convinces you that the phenomena described there don’t occur in mammals?

I notice that you have no answer about having been karyotyped.

DP. Sexual dimorphism in mammals is a scientific fact. That doesn’t mean there are not differences/disorders impact a small group, but the group is very small. This debate is obviously not about intersex people. Except to the extent that one would hope the lessons learned by the over medicalization of intersex kids trying to make them fit into a binary would actually be a cautionary tale for biologically normal but gender questioning kids.

I have empathy for the parents on here who engaged in a longer journey with their trans kids and feel like they made the right choice. But that’s not actually what this debate is about. It’s about the new phenomenon of aggressive medical treatment and the skyrocketing numbers of troubled natal teen girls suddenly becoming trans. It’s also about the unconscionable quashing of scientific discussion about it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am the PP who pointed out the mountain of data analysis flaws in that ludicrous letter that Andrew Wakefield signed. For context, I haven’t posted since then. I am not OP.

I appreciate the insight from the mom of the trans daughter. PP, I appreciate you taking the time. Your post was thoughtful and I think your perspective is valuable. But why do you assume that people who have dug into the data and come away with a starkly different opinion than you are doing that without a personal stake, for entirely transphobic reasons? I find that a little insulting and reductive, to be honest, as though if you love a child struggling with gender dysphoria you must ignore the gaping chasm of reliable data and fully embrace the affirmative model of care, no questions asked, because not being “transphobic” is more important than having hard discussions about medical treatment.

The truth is that I came to this specifically because a child I’ve known nearly his whole life suddenly started expressing gender dysphoria, after having been diagnosed with severe depression and an eating disorder following serious bullying at school. He is not some anonymous number for me. His parents did what good parents were told to do when a child expresses gender dysphoria: they affirmed and took him (at that point, socially her) to a gender clinic. And that’s where things turned nightmarish. He and his parents experienced significant pressure to continue down a medical pathway to transition, largely ignoring the confounding and severe mental health issues as well as the bullying. The parents were essentially threatened with the suicide of their child (told the dead son/live daughter line multiple times), and it was made clear that if they did not go along for the ride, that ride would continue without them. That’s where I came into this, because my background is data and the mom wanted to discuss the available data because they felt so pressured.

Of course, as we all know now thanks to the Cass report, not only is the science not remotely settled, it barely qualifies as science. I went through a good number of the studies cited by WPATH and I was horrified. The lack of rigor was immediately apparent. I was honestly super confused; I had, up to that point, assumed that there was significant evidentiary support. I had (foolishly) trusted the medical system. But I could not avoid the truth before my eyes.

That child did not transition and is now doing well. The family remains close. I do not want to share more because this is not my story.

But the experience of this child is as important as that of your own trans child, PP. Your desire to protect your child is as strong as the desire of this child’s parents to protect him. And this unquestioning model did not serve them at all, in fact it was extremely destructive. Your desire to support your own child can’t come at the expense of other children. That is as wrong as the care bans are. You can’t shut down all discussion because the medical pathway worked for your daughter; if that is in fact the best path for some children, there needs to be evidence to support that path. I am deeply aware that the discussion must be painful for you, but not having the discussion is as painful to other families. For years, “no discussion” has prevailed as a model. It is time for other voices to be heard.

I’m PP who told her child’s story. There are certainly going to be situations where someone shouldn’t rush to transition. But all of this talk about “models” again just jumps into making blanket statements for entire groups of people rather than treating people like individuals.

There is no conspiracy. There are therapists who will not question much, and immediately be totally affirming, and maybe that’s who this person found. But no one is forcing anyone on HRT. My own child was never suicidal to my knowledge and no one ever suggested it to me.

Therapy was somewhat useful but it was really just a lot of honest communication as a family that led us in the direction it did. I think a lot of people don’t want to or can’t do the hard work of really communicating with their kids in an open way. They have a set opinion and don’t want to hear anything their kid says if it violates their own ideals. And that’s not just related to being trans. My husband’s parents were conservative Christians and they weren’t open to any opinions or thoughts their kids had if they didn’t match their conservative Christian views.

This isn’t your story or your child and you conveniently don’t want to give too much information so there’s no way to know if the kid and family really are fine. But I’d also fully admit that sometimes people have additional circumstances that merit more time and consideration. If I’d had a kid who was often unstable and had a personality disorder I would have been even more cautious. I actually do know a kid like this who has severe mental health issues and also identifies as non binary and the mental health issues take center stage.

But as much as that’s true, there are also plenty of parents who just don’t want to accept their kids who will say they know their kids aren’t really trans. I’ve talked to a parent like that too—where it’s pretty obvious that they would never be accepting no matter what. And although I feel for that kid and think eventually that kid is going to bolt at 18 and probably not talk to that parent, it’s also that parent’s decision. It’s not my kid.

You really don’t NEED any report or study if you’re treating your child like an individual human being and have a trusting and loving relationship with them. It’s all fine and good for looky loos who just want to gawk and be morally superior to obsess weirdly over studies. But studies are not people. And even IF every study in the world assured me of something about my own child but I saw with my own eyes and knowledge as a mom that they were wrong, I’d 1000 times listen to my kid and not random studies.

Last, “other voices” have been heard in half of the United States. It’s completely bizarre that you act like you’re being victimized when:

1. You aren’t trans and don’t have a child who is.

2. Half the US state governments have made this their culture war du jour since it’s no longer cool to pick on gay people and they don’t want to talk about the deeply unpopular issue of abortion. You’re not the victim when you’ve been getting exactly what you want.

What exactly do you think I want? You have decided — with no evidence — that I support the laws in some states banning care. That’s irrational and not fair. And it’s not right. I do not support the laws banning care, to be explicit, and I do not support the use of trans healthcare as part of a culture war (though I will note that the refusal to be honest and transparent about what that healthcare is and does is partially why laws banning care and the culture war use have happened).

Here is what I want: better care for vulnerable children that is reliant upon actual science, not wishful thinking. You may think a parent who knows their child does not need scientific support, and you may believe that if there are 1000 studies saying one thing but your feeling as a mom goes the other, you are going with your feelings. But that’s a fairly extremist position, and certainly not one that I believe the majority of parents would be comfortable with. That puts healthcare for gender dysphoric children effectively in the same category as faith healing. That is a position you can take, but I don’t think a lot of parents, particularly those with vulnerable children struggling with complex issues, will want to take or should be obliged to take the same position.

Finally, the idea that only people who are trans (which conveniently excludes detransitioners) or who are a parent of a trans child (which conveniently excludes parents of kids with potentially other issues) should be allowed to have an opinion on the availability of, quality of, and treatment steps for gender dysphoria is both untenable and foolish, and would represent an unusual rejection of the scientific process that has advanced medicine for a long time. If you actually want improvement in outcomes for gender dysphoric children then you actually need people who can be neutral. Nobody in their right minds would argue that the only people who should be allowed to have opinions on other serious developmental disorders or mental health issues in children are either people who have those disorders and issues or their parents. It’s simply not reasonable.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. The Cass review is a step forward to better care for all children. I know you must be scared about what comes next, and I understand that, but the transparency that has come out of this will help kids like your child in the future. Healthcare for children struggling with gender dysphoria should be evidence-based, and now that there is open discussion and honesty about the lack of that evidence, progress can be made.

[jsteele]

Probably a good time to end this thread.