Question about Jewish people

[Anonymous]

Ashkenazi and Sephardic are traditionally Jewish backgrounds, but I have Ashenazi & Sephardic ancestry (discovered through genetic testing), but no known Jewish relatives in my family's history. Today, those distinctions don't really mean much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It is not so clear cut. For example, the children of a Jewish woman are automatically considered to be Jewish, without any baptism or similar process, suggesting being Jewish is being part of a race and/ or ethnic group, beyond a religion per se.

The Jewish religion does not require a ceremony akin to baptism in order to be a member of the religion. If you are born Jewish, you are Jewish; that doesn't mean it's a race, it means that it's a religion with customs that are different from some other religions.

Well, that is your interpretation. To me the "If you are born Jewish, you are Jewish" sounds much more like a race or ethnicity than a religion.

Try this...how would these statements sound:

"If you are born Buddhist, you are Buddhist."
"If you are born Catholic, you are Catholic"
"If you are born atheist, you are atheist."

I am the PP you are quoting and these sound fine to me. When you grow up with the belief that you are born into your religion, it is the "other" custom that sounds odd - a baby or child must be officially welcomed/initiated into the religion in order to be a part of it. My children already have this belief - they are girls and they know their unborn children will be Jewish because they are. They don't think it is odd, just as Christian children likely don't think it is odd that their siblings or future children will have to be christened/baptized/etc.

To the PPs who asked about seemingly Jewish children being asked to convert, well, that's a difference between levels of observance. In Israel, the Orthodox run things. Traditionally, Judaism is matrilineal because you know who the mother is; historically, determining paternity is a more difficult task, while seeing a baby emerge from its mother's body is pretty clear-cut. In modern Orthodoxy, this has turned into a law - Judaism is matrilineal, and if your mother wasn't Jewish, you must convert. American Reform and sometimes Conservative Jewish leaders will "accept" as Jewish children who are born to a Jewish parent, mother or father, and raised in the religion. So you could easily grow up in this country with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother, attend services and religious school, celebrate your Bar or Bat Mitzvah (which recognizes not that you are a Jew, to address another PP, but rather that you have assumed the responsibilities of a Jewish adult), and then have an Orthodox rabbi require your conversion if you wanted to marry another Jew, emigrate to Israel as a Jew, etc. You are who you are, you believe what you believe, but sometimes the people in charge follow different rules. No one particularly likes the reality of that, especially the Jews who aren't of matrilineal descent, and I have friends who have experienced this. All religions have people who are more or less rigid in their beliefs and practices; Judaism is no different.

If those absurd statements "sound fine" to you, we must have very different understandings of the world "religion" and of Buddhist/ Catholic/ Atheist beliefs.

And I struggle to see how you can fit the "If you are born Jewish, you are Jewish" statement into any definition of Religion provided by the Merriam-Webster dictionary -- as all three are based on belief or behavior instead of genes:

Religion is...

"- the belief in a god or in a group of gods"

"-an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods"

"-an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group"

New poster here.

There are different types of Jewish faith just as there are different types of Christian/Muslim/Other faiths. Orthodox, Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, etc. PP is right that in Israel Orthodox rabbis control all evidence of Jewish citizenship and conversion. They won't recognize a Reform conversion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why don't they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

Is this a serious question? I hope not. I don't understand how someone can ask such simple questions, and have such little education about other faiths/traditions.

Someone has already answered the question concerning Judaism, but I'll answer regarding Islam. Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah, but messiah/christ does not mean divinity. In Islam, Jesus is a significant prophet and divinely anointed savior, but that he is completely mortal and human. They believe he's a prophet just like Moses, Adam, Noah, etc, all with their designated "tasks" and purposes in history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are asking questions for which there is no clearly defined answer. Is Judaism a race, a religion, or an ethnicity? That is a question that books have been written about. Why do people feel they have been "born" Jewish if Judaism is not a race? Again, books are written about this topic.

Best answer so far

[Anonymous]

Most of the people I know that are Jewish are not religious but insist on marrying someone Jewish so their children are Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, it all depends on what kind of Jewish? And how things get interpreted and by whom?

Anything at all, which makes one definatively Jewish, or not? Can this differ for males and females? Or does it depend?

Which way is the wind blowing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It is not so clear cut. For example, the children of a Jewish woman are automatically considered to be Jewish, without any baptism or similar process, suggesting being Jewish is being part of a race and/ or ethnic group, beyond a religion per se.

The Jewish religion does not require a ceremony akin to baptism in order to be a member of the religion. If you are born Jewish, you are Jewish; that doesn't mean it's a race, it means that it's a religion with customs that are different from some other religions.

Well, that is your interpretation. To me the "If you are born Jewish, you are Jewish" sounds much more like a race or ethnicity than a religion.

Try this...how would these statements sound:

"If you are born Buddhist, you are Buddhist."
"If you are born Catholic, you are Catholic"
"If you are born atheist, you are atheist."

I am the PP you are quoting and these sound fine to me. When you grow up with the belief that you are born into your religion, it is the "other" custom that sounds odd - a baby or child must be officially welcomed/initiated into the religion in order to be a part of it. My children already have this belief - they are girls and they know their unborn children will be Jewish because they are. They don't think it is odd, just as Christian children likely don't think it is odd that their siblings or future children will have to be christened/baptized/etc.

To the PPs who asked about seemingly Jewish children being asked to convert, well, that's a difference between levels of observance. In Israel, the Orthodox run things. Traditionally, Judaism is matrilineal because you know who the mother is; historically, determining paternity is a more difficult task, while seeing a baby emerge from its mother's body is pretty clear-cut. In modern Orthodoxy, this has turned into a law - Judaism is matrilineal, and if your mother wasn't Jewish, you must convert. American Reform and sometimes Conservative Jewish leaders will "accept" as Jewish children who are born to a Jewish parent, mother or father, and raised in the religion. So you could easily grow up in this country with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother, attend services and religious school, celebrate your Bar or Bat Mitzvah (which recognizes not that you are a Jew, to address another PP, but rather that you have assumed the responsibilities of a Jewish adult), and then have an Orthodox rabbi require your conversion if you wanted to marry another Jew, emigrate to Israel as a Jew, etc. You are who you are, you believe what you believe, but sometimes the people in charge follow different rules. No one particularly likes the reality of that, especially the Jews who aren't of matrilineal descent, and I have friends who have experienced this. All religions have people who are more or less rigid in their beliefs and practices; Judaism is no different.

If those absurd statements "sound fine" to you, we must have very different understandings of the world "religion" and of Buddhist/ Catholic/ Atheist beliefs.

And I struggle to see how you can fit the "If you are born Jewish, you are Jewish" statement into any definition of Religion provided by the Merriam-Webster dictionary -- as all three are based on belief or behavior instead of genes:

Religion is...

"- the belief in a god or in a group of gods"

"-an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods"

"-an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group"

Genetics is the wrong frame to use to think of matrilineality. Imagine two women, one born to a line of women that could be directly traced back to the first Jew and one with no Jewish ancestors who converted to Judaism by the strictest method possible. The children of both women are Jewish. The first women's kids are not more Jewish than the second's: they are all Jewish, period.

That one can sometimes use genes to define Jews is nothing to do with the religion, as there is no genetic test for being a Jew. It's similar to how you can only sort of use genes to define who in America is "black." If I looked at everyone's genes in America I couldn't predict who defined themselves as black and who defined themselves as white. All I could say is who has ancestors that came from certain African populations. Similarly, I can look at people's genes and tell who had descended from certain eastern european populations, but that doesn't tell me if they are jewish or not.

Agree with PP who said that this is not a simple question. Identity, and policing its borders, never is. If you don't know that, you must be part of the dominant culture and have never given thought to your identity. You should get out more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If they are not an ethnic group, why were they identified as such in the USSR? Why did the Nazis also kill Jews who had converted to other religions or were not religious?

Because those two groups were interested in policing the boundaries of identity for their own purposes, and it was important to them to define Others. Jews were one Other that they identified.

[Anonymous]

Israeli is not an ethnicity. It is a nationality. There are people of many ethnicities who are Israeli citizens. Sheesh.

[Anonymous]

The Nazi's killed as many Eastern Europeans as they could, Jewish or not. Both were targets in the Final Solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why don't they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

Some do. it is a quirk of the religions differing membership requirements that you can be simultaneously Jewish (defined by birth) and a Christian (defined by your actions). Such people call themselves Messianic Jews but they are also known as "Jews for Jesus." To Jews they are deeply irritating because a hallmark of Christianity is attempts to convert others and we do not like it when people try and convert us.

Jews define the messiah as a political leader who will restore Jews to Israel. Jesus was therefore not the messiah because he did not do this. The idea of the messiah as divine is a Christian one, not a Jewish one. Here is a great explanation: http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most of the people I know that are Jewish are not religious but insist on marrying someone Jewish so their children are Jewish.

Here's one I don't get: I have a friend who is Jewish but basically says she doesn't believe in God. Yet, it was important to her to marry a Jew, which she said was "cultural reasons." But the guy she married is a convert who didn't grow up in the culture.

Hard for us Goyim to understand all this!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the people I know that are Jewish are not religious but insist on marrying someone Jewish so their children are Jewish.

Here's one I don't get: I have a friend who is Jewish but basically says she doesn't believe in God. Yet, it was important to her to marry a Jew, which she said was "cultural reasons." But the guy she married is a convert who didn't grow up in the culture.

Hard for us Goyim to understand all this!

Hard for Jews to understand all the things that Christians do, too. My brother is a convert to the Seventh Day Adventist faith. There's some crazy stuff there that I do not understand so I don't think that everything associated with religion is highly logical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Nazi's killed as many Eastern Europeans as they could, Jewish or not. Both were targets in the Final Solution.

You know you just exposed the best keep secret in all of history?

(At least as reported in American history books, but even more importantly, on the big screens of Hollywood's "docudrama" industry.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most of the people I know that are Jewish are not religious but insist on marrying someone Jewish so their children are Jewish.

Here's one I don't get: I have a friend who is Jewish but basically says she doesn't believe in God. Yet, it was important to her to marry a Jew, which she said was "cultural reasons." But the guy she married is a convert who didn't grow up in the culture.

Hard for us Goyim to understand all this!

Jewish PP here, I think I get this. As a convert, he has showed that he gives a damn about the religion/culture. It won't be an uphill battle for her to raise their kids Jewish as it would be if she'd married someone of another religion or someone who didn't care about religion at all. She can provide the family history, he can contribute enthusiasm and support for a Jewish identity for their family.