Michael Brown and Jim Graham want to drive the wealthy out of the city.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is silly. No one is saying that some mass exodus will take place. But several PP seems to think that DC is so desirable that everyone should want to live there. That is simply false itself. The FACT is that the almost all of the growth in the region over the last 20 years has NOT been in DC. High taxes are part of the reason. The FACT is that most of the seriously wealthy do not live in DC today, even if some happen to have residences. For example, the tech money and most athletes do not live in DC. The FACT is that one can live in nearby MC or FC and get 90% of whatever benefits one perceives by actually living in DC. The FACT is that most of the high income jobs in the region are no longer in DC, so, to the extent that one wants to live and work in reasonably close proximity, DC is not now the most desirable option even now. The FACT is that, to the extent you are wealthy and own a second home elsewhere, and to the extent that your job does NOT require you to be in DC all the time, you can easily get your DC fix without being a formal resident. I suggest some of the more fancy homes in DC already belong to folks who live elsewhere. So, the point of this is that there are a limited number of millionaires who must live and work in DC. Those are mostly journalists, lawyers, and lobbyists. Most other millionaires need not be in DC. In sum, increasing the upper bracket will have the effect OVER TIME of encouraging the wealthy to move elsewhere, to claim their second home as their residence, or, for those new to the area, to set up in Md or VA. But, of course, there will no mass exodus

Hey, I'm one of those PP's and I moved from DC to VA. But it was for schools and space, not taxes. None of the posters says that everyone should want to live there. It's just that some people do prefer DC for their own reasons, and a few thousand dollar change in their tax bill isn't going to change that.

But since you are talking so much about FACTS. The FACT is that DC is small in size compared to MD/VA, so it is never going to have most of anyone. And another FACT is that higher income people have been moving into the city in recent years. There is no net flight out. This has been widely reported in the papers, so there's no point in denying it. It is what it is.

But you are wrong. When new peopl are moving to the area DC now becomes less and less attractive. It already has the highest taxes, high paying jobs are moving out to the suburbs, the schools are abysmal, and now they may be increasing taxes some more. It just makes the city seen as more of a novelty but not as a legitimate place to live. The perception that DC is a high taxing jurisdiction that doesn't make good use of those funds will just continue to increase. A few thousand dollars you say? Add that to the already 10s of thousands of extra dollars people are already paying in DC vs living in Nova. It's the typical short sighted nature of those "tax the rich" types that don't seem to realize that people notice these things. But you know what go ahead, and use that as a way to fix your budge hole instead of cutting out the massive waste that DC is famously know for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC Clasess:
1M and over = rich
250k - 1M = middle class
40-250k = poor
40K and below = homeless

Hmm. Interesting. My family falls into the 40 - 250K range. I didn't know we were poor poor, but considering how much we pour into the house, I knew we were house poor. I can live with though, because I sure don't feel rich!

Now that I'm poor, can I please have my welfare and medicaid and food stamps? My family of 5 is struggling to live in a gentrified area on only one salary and $120K per year. I could probably get a job paying $60 - $80K per year, but why bother? We'd still be poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is silly. No one is saying that some mass exodus will take place. But several PP seems to think that DC is so desirable that everyone should want to live there. That is simply false itself. The FACT is that the almost all of the growth in the region over the last 20 years has NOT been in DC. High taxes are part of the reason. The FACT is that most of the seriously wealthy do not live in DC today, even if some happen to have residences. For example, the tech money and most athletes do not live in DC. The FACT is that one can live in nearby MC or FC and get 90% of whatever benefits one perceives by actually living in DC. The FACT is that most of the high income jobs in the region are no longer in DC, so, to the extent that one wants to live and work in reasonably close proximity, DC is not now the most desirable option even now. The FACT is that, to the extent you are wealthy and own a second home elsewhere, and to the extent that your job does NOT require you to be in DC all the time, you can easily get your DC fix without being a formal resident. I suggest some of the more fancy homes in DC already belong to folks who live elsewhere. So, the point of this is that there are a limited number of millionaires who must live and work in DC. Those are mostly journalists, lawyers, and lobbyists. Most other millionaires need not be in DC. In sum, increasing the upper bracket will have the effect OVER TIME of encouraging the wealthy to move elsewhere, to claim their second home as their residence, or, for those new to the area, to set up in Md or VA. But, of course, there will no mass exodus

Hey, I'm one of those PP's and I moved from DC to VA. But it was for schools and space, not taxes. None of the posters says that everyone should want to live there. It's just that some people do prefer DC for their own reasons, and a few thousand dollar change in their tax bill isn't going to change that.

But since you are talking so much about FACTS. The FACT is that DC is small in size compared to MD/VA, so it is never going to have most of anyone. And another FACT is that higher income people have been moving into the city in recent years. There is no net flight out. This has been widely reported in the papers, so there's no point in denying it. It is what it is.

But you are wrong. When new peopl are moving to the area DC now becomes less and less attractive. It already has the highest taxes, high paying jobs are moving out to the suburbs, the schools are abysmal, and now they may be increasing taxes some more. It just makes the city seen as more of a novelty but not as a legitimate place to live. The perception that DC is a high taxing jurisdiction that doesn't make good use of those funds will just continue to increase. A few thousand dollars you say? Add that to the already 10s of thousands of extra dollars people are already paying in DC vs living in Nova. It's the typical short sighted nature of those "tax the rich" types that don't seem to realize that people notice these things. But you know what go ahead, and use that as a way to fix your budge hole instead of cutting out the massive waste that DC is famously know for.

My point is that DC is growing, not shrinking, and the average income of the new resident is pretty high. It is a legitimate place to live in their minds.

There are nine states in the union without a personal income tax of any kind. There are seven more states with a flat tax rate. And yet we choose to live in jurisdictions with graduated income tax. Those who live in DC are making the same choice that you do when you live here and not Texas or Florida. You place a value on the jurisdiction that is greater than the cost of living there.

Look, I get the frustration. But for all the frustration, wealthy residents of DC are not going anywhere. There has been no net migration out. There is in fact a net migration into DC among upper incomes. We can try to read the minds of the population all we want, but the trend is what it is.

If people are unhappy with taxes in DC, they should stop trying to say what other people are going to do. They should move across to MD or VA. I did, and it wasn't for taxes. It was for schools and real estate prices. If DC was so unpopular, I'd be able to buy a bigger house in the District, so half of my problem would be solved.

[Anonymous]

First, DC has had a net migration in very recent years, which is good for DC and compares well to other cities. But the net gain must be balanced against the tremendous growth in the region over the last 25 years, which growth has benefited DC very little. Second, I seriously question whether DC has seen a net migration of the super wealthy. Between income and estate taxes, the super wealthy are not going to live in DC at least for tax purposes.

[Anonymous]

There aren't many places for the super wealthy to live in DC. But the homes that qualify are not vacant.

DC is never going to grow that large because it doesn't have enough housing stock. Gentrification is moving as fast as it can, but no one is putting up mansions anymore.

Lastly, the rate most important to the super-wealthy is capital gains. Based on that they should live in MD, but they seem to live more often in VA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is silly. No one is saying that some mass exodus will take place. But several PP seems to think that DC is so desirable that everyone should want to live there. That is simply false itself. The FACT is that the almost all of the growth in the region over the last 20 years has NOT been in DC. High taxes are part of the reason. The FACT is that most of the seriously wealthy do not live in DC today, even if some happen to have residences. For example, the tech money and most athletes do not live in DC. The FACT is that one can live in nearby MC or FC and get 90% of whatever benefits one perceives by actually living in DC. The FACT is that most of the high income jobs in the region are no longer in DC, so, to the extent that one wants to live and work in reasonably close proximity, DC is not now the most desirable option even now. The FACT is that, to the extent you are wealthy and own a second home elsewhere, and to the extent that your job does NOT require you to be in DC all the time, you can easily get your DC fix without being a formal resident. I suggest some of the more fancy homes in DC already belong to folks who live elsewhere. So, the point of this is that there are a limited number of millionaires who must live and work in DC. Those are mostly journalists, lawyers, and lobbyists. Most other millionaires need not be in DC. In sum, increasing the upper bracket will have the effect OVER TIME of encouraging the wealthy to move elsewhere, to claim their second home as their residence, or, for those new to the area, to set up in Md or VA. But, of course, there will no mass exodus

Hey, I'm one of those PP's and I moved from DC to VA. But it was for schools and space, not taxes. None of the posters says that everyone should want to live there. It's just that some people do prefer DC for their own reasons, and a few thousand dollar change in their tax bill isn't going to change that.

But since you are talking so much about FACTS. The FACT is that DC is small in size compared to MD/VA, so it is never going to have most of anyone. And another FACT is that higher income people have been moving into the city in recent years. There is no net flight out. This has been widely reported in the papers, so there's no point in denying it. It is what it is.

But you are wrong. When new peopl are moving to the area DC now becomes less and less attractive. It already has the highest taxes, high paying jobs are moving out to the suburbs, the schools are abysmal, and now they may be increasing taxes some more. It just makes the city seen as more of a novelty but not as a legitimate place to live. The perception that DC is a high taxing jurisdiction that doesn't make good use of those funds will just continue to increase. A few thousand dollars you say? Add that to the already 10s of thousands of extra dollars people are already paying in DC vs living in Nova. It's the typical short sighted nature of those "tax the rich" types that don't seem to realize that people notice these things. But you know what go ahead, and use that as a way to fix your budge hole instead of cutting out the massive waste that DC is famously know for.

My point is that DC is growing, not shrinking, and the average income of the new resident is pretty high. It is a legitimate place to live in their minds.

There are nine states in the union without a personal income tax of any kind. There are seven more states with a flat tax rate. And yet we choose to live in jurisdictions with graduated income tax. Those who live in DC are making the same choice that you do when you live here and not Texas or Florida. You place a value on the jurisdiction that is greater than the cost of living there.

Look, I get the frustration. But for all the frustration, wealthy residents of DC are not going anywhere. There has been no net migration out. There is in fact a net migration into DC among upper incomes. We can try to read the minds of the population all we want, but the trend is what it is.

If people are unhappy with taxes in DC, they should stop trying to say what other people are going to do. They should move across to MD or VA. I did, and it wasn't for taxes. It was for schools and real estate prices. If DC was so unpopular, I'd be able to buy a bigger house in the District, so half of my problem would be solved.

Talk about a point going right above someone's head. I'm glad you're on DCUM and not out setting legislative policy. THE POINT is that these punitive taxation methods discourage people from wanting to move to the District, i.e. first time residents or adds another reason for people to leave the city. The concept that if they don't like taxes that they should move is stupid. Why are you trying to scare off the highest earners and taxpayers, consumers from your jurisdiction? Makes no sense.

[Anonymous]

The continued assertion that the rich will all flee with a nominal increase in income taxes is absurd and completely goes against most of the empirical data about migration based on interstate tax discrepancies. Research, from several different reputable sources have shown that tax increases have almost no statistically significant effect on interstate migration. However far be it from me to have data and facts screw up your right-wing talking points.

[Anonymous]

I agree with several others who have pointed out that DC's high-income neighborhoods continue to be full of high-income residents and more development is happening by the day. In fact looking at real estate statistics will show that DC's housing market didn't take as big of a hit during the recession and is rebounding quicker than the surrounding jurisdictions. And for those who claim DC hasnt had any development over the last 20 years just look at the Chinatown area, the U St. area, Columbia Heights, the Navy Yard, and the up and coming H St. and NOMA areas. DC continues to have the lowest corporate vacancy rate in the region and that is including the millions of new square footage that comes online each year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is silly. No one is saying that some mass exodus will take place. But several PP seems to think that DC is so desirable that everyone should want to live there. That is simply false itself. The FACT is that the almost all of the growth in the region over the last 20 years has NOT been in DC. High taxes are part of the reason. The FACT is that most of the seriously wealthy do not live in DC today, even if some happen to have residences. For example, the tech money and most athletes do not live in DC. The FACT is that one can live in nearby MC or FC and get 90% of whatever benefits one perceives by actually living in DC. The FACT is that most of the high income jobs in the region are no longer in DC, so, to the extent that one wants to live and work in reasonably close proximity, DC is not now the most desirable option even now. The FACT is that, to the extent you are wealthy and own a second home elsewhere, and to the extent that your job does NOT require you to be in DC all the time, you can easily get your DC fix without being a formal resident. I suggest some of the more fancy homes in DC already belong to folks who live elsewhere. So, the point of this is that there are a limited number of millionaires who must live and work in DC. Those are mostly journalists, lawyers, and lobbyists. Most other millionaires need not be in DC. In sum, increasing the upper bracket will have the effect OVER TIME of encouraging the wealthy to move elsewhere, to claim their second home as their residence, or, for those new to the area, to set up in Md or VA. But, of course, there will no mass exodus

Hey, I'm one of those PP's and I moved from DC to VA. But it was for schools and space, not taxes. None of the posters says that everyone should want to live there. It's just that some people do prefer DC for their own reasons, and a few thousand dollar change in their tax bill isn't going to change that.

But since you are talking so much about FACTS. The FACT is that DC is small in size compared to MD/VA, so it is never going to have most of anyone. And another FACT is that higher income people have been moving into the city in recent years. There is no net flight out. This has been widely reported in the papers, so there's no point in denying it. It is what it is.

But you are wrong. When new peopl are moving to the area DC now becomes less and less attractive. It already has the highest taxes, high paying jobs are moving out to the suburbs, the schools are abysmal, and now they may be increasing taxes some more. It just makes the city seen as more of a novelty but not as a legitimate place to live. The perception that DC is a high taxing jurisdiction that doesn't make good use of those funds will just continue to increase. A few thousand dollars you say? Add that to the already 10s of thousands of extra dollars people are already paying in DC vs living in Nova. It's the typical short sighted nature of those "tax the rich" types that don't seem to realize that people notice these things. But you know what go ahead, and use that as a way to fix your budge hole instead of cutting out the massive waste that DC is famously know for.

My point is that DC is growing, not shrinking, and the average income of the new resident is pretty high. It is a legitimate place to live in their minds.

There are nine states in the union without a personal income tax of any kind. There are seven more states with a flat tax rate. And yet we choose to live in jurisdictions with graduated income tax. Those who live in DC are making the same choice that you do when you live here and not Texas or Florida. You place a value on the jurisdiction that is greater than the cost of living there.

Look, I get the frustration. But for all the frustration, wealthy residents of DC are not going anywhere. There has been no net migration out. There is in fact a net migration into DC among upper incomes. We can try to read the minds of the population all we want, but the trend is what it is.

If people are unhappy with taxes in DC, they should stop trying to say what other people are going to do. They should move across to MD or VA. I did, and it wasn't for taxes. It was for schools and real estate prices. If DC was so unpopular, I'd be able to buy a bigger house in the District, so half of my problem would be solved.

Talk about a point going right above someone's head. I'm glad you're on DCUM and not out setting legislative policy. THE POINT is that these punitive taxation methods discourage people from wanting to move to the District, i.e. first time residents or adds another reason for people to leave the city. The concept that if they don't like taxes that they should move is stupid. Why are you trying to scare off the highest earners and taxpayers, consumers from your jurisdiction? Makes no sense.

You would have to find me people who are all for moving to DC, with it's 8.5% tax rate, high real estate costs and bad schools, but who refuse because of what amounts to an increase of $1300 on a million dollars of annual income.

Do you really believe that someone who is already willing to pay 8.5% in taxes, fund private school for their kids, and pay 30% to 100% more for a house, is somehow going to stay away from DC merely because of what amounts to a token increase in their tax bill? Sorry. It does not affect the bottom line. Posters want to believe there will be a revolt over this because they are offended by the principle. But people who move here don't care. And I'd really love to hear stories about people willing to move over it. Complain yes. Move, no.

[Anonymous]

Isn't it more likely that while "rich" people who live here may not leave, "rich" people who are considering moving here will decide not to? Ergo, the rate of wealth accumulation in aggregate will have a relative decline.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is silly. No one is saying that some mass exodus will take place. But several PP seems to think that DC is so desirable that everyone should want to live there. That is simply false itself. The FACT is that the almost all of the growth in the region over the last 20 years has NOT been in DC. High taxes are part of the reason. The FACT is that most of the seriously wealthy do not live in DC today, even if some happen to have residences. For example, the tech money and most athletes do not live in DC. The FACT is that one can live in nearby MC or FC and get 90% of whatever benefits one perceives by actually living in DC. The FACT is that most of the high income jobs in the region are no longer in DC, so, to the extent that one wants to live and work in reasonably close proximity, DC is not now the most desirable option even now. The FACT is that, to the extent you are wealthy and own a second home elsewhere, and to the extent that your job does NOT require you to be in DC all the time, you can easily get your DC fix without being a formal resident. I suggest some of the more fancy homes in DC already belong to folks who live elsewhere. So, the point of this is that there are a limited number of millionaires who must live and work in DC. Those are mostly journalists, lawyers, and lobbyists. Most other millionaires need not be in DC. In sum, increasing the upper bracket will have the effect OVER TIME of encouraging the wealthy to move elsewhere, to claim their second home as their residence, or, for those new to the area, to set up in Md or VA. But, of course, there will no mass exodus

Hey, I'm one of those PP's and I moved from DC to VA. But it was for schools and space, not taxes. None of the posters says that everyone should want to live there. It's just that some people do prefer DC for their own reasons, and a few thousand dollar change in their tax bill isn't going to change that.

But since you are talking so much about FACTS. The FACT is that DC is small in size compared to MD/VA, so it is never going to have most of anyone. And another FACT is that higher income people have been moving into the city in recent years. There is no net flight out. This has been widely reported in the papers, so there's no point in denying it. It is what it is.

But you are wrong. When new peopl are moving to the area DC now becomes less and less attractive. It already has the highest taxes, high paying jobs are moving out to the suburbs, the schools are abysmal, and now they may be increasing taxes some more. It just makes the city seen as more of a novelty but not as a legitimate place to live. The perception that DC is a high taxing jurisdiction that doesn't make good use of those funds will just continue to increase. A few thousand dollars you say? Add that to the already 10s of thousands of extra dollars people are already paying in DC vs living in Nova. It's the typical short sighted nature of those "tax the rich" types that don't seem to realize that people notice these things. But you know what go ahead, and use that as a way to fix your budge hole instead of cutting out the massive waste that DC is famously know for.

My point is that DC is growing, not shrinking, and the average income of the new resident is pretty high. It is a legitimate place to live in their minds.

There are nine states in the union without a personal income tax of any kind. There are seven more states with a flat tax rate. And yet we choose to live in jurisdictions with graduated income tax. Those who live in DC are making the same choice that you do when you live here and not Texas or Florida. You place a value on the jurisdiction that is greater than the cost of living there.

Look, I get the frustration. But for all the frustration, wealthy residents of DC are not going anywhere. There has been no net migration out. There is in fact a net migration into DC among upper incomes. We can try to read the minds of the population all we want, but the trend is what it is.

If people are unhappy with taxes in DC, they should stop trying to say what other people are going to do. They should move across to MD or VA. I did, and it wasn't for taxes. It was for schools and real estate prices. If DC was so unpopular, I'd be able to buy a bigger house in the District, so half of my problem would be solved.

Talk about a point going right above someone's head. I'm glad you're on DCUM and not out setting legislative policy. THE POINT is that these punitive taxation methods discourage people from wanting to move to the District, i.e. first time residents or adds another reason for people to leave the city. The concept that if they don't like taxes that they should move is stupid. Why are you trying to scare off the highest earners and taxpayers, consumers from your jurisdiction? Makes no sense.

You would have to find me people who are all for moving to DC, with it's 8.5% tax rate, high real estate costs and bad schools, but who refuse because of what amounts to an increase of $1300 on a million dollars of annual income.

Do you really believe that someone who is already willing to pay 8.5% in taxes, fund private school for their kids, and pay 30% to 100% more for a house, is somehow going to stay away from DC merely because of what amounts to a token increase in their tax bill? Sorry. It does not affect the bottom line. Posters want to believe there will be a revolt over this because they are offended by the principle. But people who move here don't care. And I'd really love to hear stories about people willing to move over it. Complain yes. Move, no.

Again you are slow to realize that these people are few and far between in the District and less and less of them are going to move here if ever. Also, it's wrong. The city has misspent it's resources so it goes after it highest earners just because. Bad policy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Isn't it more likely that while "rich" people who live here may not leave, "rich" people who are considering moving here will decide not to? Ergo, the rate of wealth accumulation in aggregate will have a relative decline.

They don't think that far ahead. It's just, tax, tax, tax. They don't realize that while people are moving in to the city the really wealthy still find the suburbs a much better buy.

[Anonymous]

I must speak as someone who just put an offer on a house in DC last week. I am not superrich, but my household income is between $450-500K. I could have moved anywhere, MD, VA. I'm from MD. I want to live in DC. I used to live in Chevy Chase, MD. I just find the people in DC to be wonderfully interesting and I love the neighborhoods. Sorry. I could care less about the tax increase. My kids go to a charter school here and I love it. I didn't want to move them from their school. We recently moved back to DC from another state.

Anyway, the point is that people who live in DC decide to live here for many more reasons than taxes. I love the city. My kids love the city. As a matter of fact, if my family made less money, we may consider moving to MD or VA, but because I don't have to watch every penny, it doesn't make any difference to me.

I would, however, like people of all incomes to move to the City. I realize that that is not realistic. The city is expensive and sometimes inconvenient.

It's a personal choice.

[Anonymous]

1034 is right in that it is, of course, a personal choice. I, however, point out that houses in some n-hoods in DC are less than those inc omparative n-hoods in Md or VA. For example, CC-DC is generally less expensive than CC-MD. Similarly, the AU area is generally less expansive than the houses across Western Avenue. Schools and taxes certainly are some of the key reasons for this difference. Morever, I can live in CC-Md and get 90% plus (and arguably more) of whatever benefits you perceive by living in DC, so a CC-MD resident is not missing anything by not living in DC. Finally, DC, of course has many wonderfully interesting people, but so does Md and Va for that matter. In fact, one might argue that the burbs are more interesting (less attorneys and lobbyists).

The pro-tax people are missing a key point that the proposed higher tax rate is not liklely to cause an immediate exit. No one is saying that.

[Anonymous]

I'm the one who just put the offer on the house. I can tell you that right now, DC is more expensive. CC-DC housing was larger than what was offered in DC for the price. MD is a steal right now - in Bethesda, Chevy Chase and Rockville. DC was a much tighter market and sellers were not as willing to compromise. My husband kept showing me houses in CC-DC so that I understood what I could get in MD if I did not insist on living in DC.