Am I Being Scammed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are so many better and worthier uses for 40k. Somehow I am confident your child will be fine, even if they end up with 2-3 points lower IQ. There are people however for whom this kind of money would make a world of difference. IQ isn't just schooling and piano lessons, it is also empathy and being a decent human being.

To answer your question, yes, you're being scammed.

Based on OP's posts here, I do not share your confidence. At all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so normal PGS on a batch of embryos is $5-8,000.

1) you're talking about trusting a unknown startup with a critical medical test that you cannot do-over, at a cost 5-9 times what a regular PGS should be

2) if you're considering this on already extant embryos, you are likely going to kill the whole batch with the thaw/sample/freeze process. people only consider doing this when there is a deadly genetic issue that they are trying to avoid.

3) economic status is still the best predictor of success. invest the $40k now in a 529, provide love and support to whatever kids you get.

They are analyzing the SNP data from the lab where my clinic sent the biopsy samples. This company also collects DNA from both of the parents and then uses the SNP to reconstruct the entire genome for every embryo. I don’t need to biopsy again, I already have the data needed to analyze this information. Yes, parental SES is the best predictor of life outcomes, but genes matter. There are already studies that have been conducted (and replicated) where researchers used genetic scores to predict social mobility and economic success among siblings.

ok, OP, why are you doing IVF and PGS? how many embryos do you have (day 3? day 5? day 6?), how many children do you plan to have?

if you have 15 embryos and you only plan to have one child, and there are no functional issues like repeated miscarriages, and they are just going to use the already extant biopsies— sure, knock yourself out. spend $40k to fortunetell you which embryo to pick out of the 15 based on "maybe highest iq". (not happiest, or most well-adjusted, or smartest, mind you...)

but it's entirely possible that after multiple failed transfers and miscarriages, the one that sticks is at the bottom of your magically hallucinated list and isn't the gender you "preferred" either.

please remember that at the end of the day, there is (hopefully) a real human that you will be responsible for nurturing and raising. hopefully your priorities will get adjustment along the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I found a company that is charging 40k to predict IQ for embryos based on DNA data. They are telling me that the best existing genetic scores for IQ can explain 8% of the variance between people. In my situation, they are claiming this will on average increase my kids expected IQ by 2-3 points. Does this sound legit and is it worth paying for assuming that this service works?

Use your words, OP, and explain how this magic technology capable of "predicting" an embryo's IQ can simultaneously "increase" the IQ by 2-3 points. Like, the scam is obvious, but even as you've laid it out, B does not follow from A.

You seem very gullible and simple, so your children will likely be gullible and simple as well. Let your spouse make the big decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I lost a few IQ points just reading this

Me too. I wish I created a scam where people would just give me 40k for useless information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found a company that is charging 40k to predict IQ for embryos based on DNA data. They are telling me that the best existing genetic scores for IQ can explain 8% of the variance between people. In my situation, they are claiming this will on average increase my kids expected IQ by 2-3 points. Does this sound legit and is it worth paying for assuming that this service works?

Use your words, OP, and explain how this magic technology capable of "predicting" an embryo's IQ can simultaneously "increase" the IQ by 2-3 points. Like, the scam is obvious, but even as you've laid it out, B does not follow from A.

You seem very gullible and simple, so your children will likely be gullible and simple as well. Let your spouse make the big decisions.

You are misinterpreting what I’m saying. It is correctly called a prediction, but it is estimating expected IQ based on the cumulative impact of thousands of genetic markers that each have a small individual impact on cognitive ability. Thus, this polygenic score can predict IQ more accurately than random chance and increase your kids expected IQ on average by 2-3 points, when selecting the highest scoring of 10 embryos. The prediction obviously has a confidence interval, so sometimes the benefit will be more, and sometimes it will be less or nonexistent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so normal PGS on a batch of embryos is $5-8,000.

1) you're talking about trusting a unknown startup with a critical medical test that you cannot do-over, at a cost 5-9 times what a regular PGS should be

2) if you're considering this on already extant embryos, you are likely going to kill the whole batch with the thaw/sample/freeze process. people only consider doing this when there is a deadly genetic issue that they are trying to avoid.

3) economic status is still the best predictor of success. invest the $40k now in a 529, provide love and support to whatever kids you get.

They are analyzing the SNP data from the lab where my clinic sent the biopsy samples. This company also collects DNA from both of the parents and then uses the SNP to reconstruct the entire genome for every embryo. I don’t need to biopsy again, I already have the data needed to analyze this information. Yes, parental SES is the best predictor of life outcomes, but genes matter. There are already studies that have been conducted (and replicated) where researchers used genetic scores to predict social mobility and economic success among siblings.

ok, OP, why are you doing IVF and PGS? how many embryos do you have (day 3? day 5? day 6?), how many children do you plan to have?

if you have 15 embryos and you only plan to have one child, and there are no functional issues like repeated miscarriages, and they are just going to use the already extant biopsies— sure, knock yourself out. spend $40k to fortunetell you which embryo to pick out of the 15 based on "maybe highest iq". (not happiest, or most well-adjusted, or smartest, mind you...)

but it's entirely possible that after multiple failed transfers and miscarriages, the one that sticks is at the bottom of your magically hallucinated list and isn't the gender you "preferred" either.

please remember that at the end of the day, there is (hopefully) a real human that you will be responsible for nurturing and raising. hopefully your priorities will get adjustment along the way.

I had to do IVF anyway for an unrelated reason. Didn’t want to give the kids a genetic disease that runs in the family. These are all embryos that made it to day 5 and genetically normal.

[Anonymous]

$40k could be used for a private tutor or language lessons that would benefit your child instead of whatever voodoo hopeful magic this is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a huge scam. IQ is more than just DNA. There can be things that happen in the womb that affect it. Even if your child has a high IQ, it doesn’t mean guaranteed success. These pages are filled with stories of high IQ kids who struggle in a multitude of ways. Your child’s cognitive functioning could be affected by illness, disability, accident, etc. And it definitely will be affected by personality and temperament. For example, my sibling and I have almost identical IQ scores and she was in gifted classes, earned better grades, went to a much more elite college, etc. It drove my mom crazy that I wasn’t an academic kid.

And 2-3 points means absolutely nothing. If you tested a child 2 years apart, the score would likely fluctuate a few points. I doubt you could accurately guess who has an IQ of 138 vs 141 in a classroom or workplace.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/21/science/21cnd-sibling.html


The eldest children in families tend to develop higher I.Q.’s than their siblings, researchers are reporting today, in a large study that could settle more than a half-century of scientific debate about the relationship between I.Q. and birth order.

The average difference in I.Q. was slight — three points higher in the eldest child than in the closest sibling — but significant, the researchers said. And they said the results made it clear that it was due to family dynamics, not to biological factors like prenatal environment.



Three points on an I.Q. test may not sound like much. But experts say it can be a tipping point for some people — the difference between a high B average and a low A, for instance. That, in turn, can have a cumulative effect that could mean the difference between admission to an elite private liberal-arts college and a less exclusive public one.

"Experts" means the kind of people who comment on DCUM.
The wholecptemise is pseudoscientific nonsense. IQ is artificially scaled, so there's no way the effect is consistent at all IQ levels.
High and low IQs are inherently very noisy measurements, and at middle IQ a few points is a tiny difference in performance.

It is definitely not nonsense. IQ is a legitimate variable that explains a meaningful portion of life outcomes. This is a well replicated conclusion in psychology and it has been researched for around 100 years. Americans do not want to accept this because it is inconsistent with our national ethos, that “everyone is created equal” and it raises uncomfortable questions about society. However, not believing in reality does not make it false. Twin studies also indicate that adult cognitive ability is around 50-80% genetic and this has been researched extensively.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I found a company that is charging 40k to predict IQ for embryos based on DNA data. They are telling me that the best existing genetic scores for IQ can explain 8% of the variance between people. In my situation, they are claiming this will on average increase my kids expected IQ by 2-3 points. Does this sound legit and is it worth paying for assuming that this service works?

You’re an idiot, sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so normal PGS on a batch of embryos is $5-8,000.

1) you're talking about trusting a unknown startup with a critical medical test that you cannot do-over, at a cost 5-9 times what a regular PGS should be

2) if you're considering this on already extant embryos, you are likely going to kill the whole batch with the thaw/sample/freeze process. people only consider doing this when there is a deadly genetic issue that they are trying to avoid.

3) economic status is still the best predictor of success. invest the $40k now in a 529, provide love and support to whatever kids you get.

They are analyzing the SNP data from the lab where my clinic sent the biopsy samples. This company also collects DNA from both of the parents and then uses the SNP to reconstruct the entire genome for every embryo. I don’t need to biopsy again, I already have the data needed to analyze this information. Yes, parental SES is the best predictor of life outcomes, but genes matter. There are already studies that have been conducted (and replicated) where researchers used genetic scores to predict social mobility and economic success among siblings.

Gullible much?

[Anonymous]

Total scam.

[Anonymous]

You should focus more on high EQ which is something you can nurture. Think of it from a philosophical point of view. Moral Virtue > Intellectual Virtue according to Aristotle- wisdom, prudence, courage, fortitude, magnificence, magnanimity, and temperance plus a few more.

2-3 IQ points is insignificant. Let’s assume a normal developed embryo sits at a median IQ 100. 102-103 isn’t going to make a difference. EQ is extensively researched and some consider it more favorably than IQ. This doesn’t mean EQ and IQ are mutually exclusive. They are sometimes correlated, but not always. High IQ Low EQ people are worse than High EQ AVG IQ. We know who they are. EQ counts for twice as much as IQ and technical skills combined in determining who will be successful in their career and in life.” — some Harvard guy

Compound that 40k and help your child invest it in their favorite cause, no matter what it is! Save the elephants? Yes. Feed the children? Yes. Volunteer with them? Hell yes! What a wonderful story to share with them over the years while you’re nurturing them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found a company that is charging 40k to predict IQ for embryos based on DNA data. They are telling me that the best existing genetic scores for IQ can explain 8% of the variance between people. In my situation, they are claiming this will on average increase my kids expected IQ by 2-3 points. Does this sound legit and is it worth paying for assuming that this service works?

Use your words, OP, and explain how this magic technology capable of "predicting" an embryo's IQ can simultaneously "increase" the IQ by 2-3 points. Like, the scam is obvious, but even as you've laid it out, B does not follow from A.

You seem very gullible and simple, so your children will likely be gullible and simple as well. Let your spouse make the big decisions.

You are misinterpreting what I’m saying. It is correctly called a prediction, but it is estimating expected IQ based on the cumulative impact of thousands of genetic markers that each have a small individual impact on cognitive ability. Thus, this polygenic score can predict IQ more accurately than random chance and increase your kids expected IQ on average by 2-3 points, when selecting the highest scoring of 10 embryos. The prediction obviously has a confidence interval, so sometimes the benefit will be more, and sometimes it will be less or nonexistent.

This is not proven technology, but if you're willing to shell out for it: you are very gullible.

But let's play pretend. You give this company 40k and they tell you "these are your smartest embryos, and these are the dumb ones". Now you start FET, and one by one, your future geniuses don't implant. Congratulations, you've paid $40k to be even more stressed than a normal IVF parent, and with the added bonus of resenting your future child for not being the clever one you hand-picked.

Go for it OP! You seem like the perfect candidate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found a company that is charging 40k to predict IQ for embryos based on DNA data. They are telling me that the best existing genetic scores for IQ can explain 8% of the variance between people. In my situation, they are claiming this will on average increase my kids expected IQ by 2-3 points. Does this sound legit and is it worth paying for assuming that this service works?

Use your words, OP, and explain how this magic technology capable of "predicting" an embryo's IQ can simultaneously "increase" the IQ by 2-3 points. Like, the scam is obvious, but even as you've laid it out, B does not follow from A.

You seem very gullible and simple, so your children will likely be gullible and simple as well. Let your spouse make the big decisions.

You are misinterpreting what I’m saying. It is correctly called a prediction, but it is estimating expected IQ based on the cumulative impact of thousands of genetic markers that each have a small individual impact on cognitive ability. Thus, this polygenic score can predict IQ more accurately than random chance and increase your kids expected IQ on average by 2-3 points, when selecting the highest scoring of 10 embryos. The prediction obviously has a confidence interval, so sometimes the benefit will be more, and sometimes it will be less or nonexistent.

This is not proven technology, but if you're willing to shell out for it: you are very gullible.

But let's play pretend. You give this company 40k and they tell you "these are your smartest embryos, and these are the dumb ones". Now you start FET, and one by one, your future geniuses don't implant. Congratulations, you've paid $40k to be even more stressed than a normal IVF parent, and with the added bonus of resenting your future child for not being the clever one you hand-picked.

Go for it OP! You seem like the perfect candidate.

The methodology has been validated indirectly by applying the model to out of sample datasets on adults even in different countries. This strongly suggest that the predictor is picking up on casual mechanisms. Your standard for “proven effective” is so insurmountably high that this technology would never be used if everyone followed this logic. Many of the current FDA medications would not even surpass this threshold if people need to be analyzed for decades or a lifetime before the FDA determines that treatments are reasonably safe and effective. Assuming the methodology explained above is replicable and scientifically sound you have not pointed out a valid reason why it will not work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so normal PGS on a batch of embryos is $5-8,000.

1) you're talking about trusting a unknown startup with a critical medical test that you cannot do-over, at a cost 5-9 times what a regular PGS should be

2) if you're considering this on already extant embryos, you are likely going to kill the whole batch with the thaw/sample/freeze process. people only consider doing this when there is a deadly genetic issue that they are trying to avoid.

3) economic status is still the best predictor of success. invest the $40k now in a 529, provide love and support to whatever kids you get.

They are analyzing the SNP data from the lab where my clinic sent the biopsy samples. This company also collects DNA from both of the parents and then uses the SNP to reconstruct the entire genome for every embryo. I don’t need to biopsy again, I already have the data needed to analyze this information. Yes, parental SES is the best predictor of life outcomes, but genes matter. There are already studies that have been conducted (and replicated) where researchers used genetic scores to predict social mobility and economic success among siblings.

ok, OP, why are you doing IVF and PGS? how many embryos do you have (day 3? day 5? day 6?), how many children do you plan to have?

if you have 15 embryos and you only plan to have one child, and there are no functional issues like repeated miscarriages, and they are just going to use the already extant biopsies— sure, knock yourself out. spend $40k to fortunetell you which embryo to pick out of the 15 based on "maybe highest iq". (not happiest, or most well-adjusted, or smartest, mind you...)

but it's entirely possible that after multiple failed transfers and miscarriages, the one that sticks is at the bottom of your magically hallucinated list and isn't the gender you "preferred" either.

please remember that at the end of the day, there is (hopefully) a real human that you will be responsible for nurturing and raising. hopefully your priorities will get adjustment along the way.

I had to do IVF anyway for an unrelated reason. Didn’t want to give the kids a genetic disease that runs in the family. These are all embryos that made it to day 5 and genetically normal.

ok, so has the carrier ever been pregnant or done IVF before? if not, it's all just a crapshoot. if $40k is a rounding error for you, go ahead, you have to pick an embryo to go first somehow. usually the embryologist just picks based on which ones "look" best. (you can research embryo grading, and your RE should have told you what grades your embryos have, or can give you that report if they haven't.) but please understand that it is very easy to go through an entire batch of embryos and not end up with a live birth.