How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a subordinate like this. Any PTO was like money burning a hole in her pocket. As soon as she had a few hours saved up she would take a “mental health day” or “log off early because a migraine is coming”. She eventually left on her own terms, but she was clearly struggling with mental health issues.

Thankfully I was able to assign her some of the more “nice to have” projects and less time sensitive items so that we did not miss deadlines. A few times I made exceptions and I explained I really needed consistent attendance and effort and she could pull it together for 1-2 weeks at a time, but then sort of break down as soon as the pressure was off.

You are a walking law suit.

Agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.

What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.

I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a subordinate like this. Any PTO was like money burning a hole in her pocket. As soon as she had a few hours saved up she would take a “mental health day” or “log off early because a migraine is coming”. She eventually left on her own terms, but she was clearly struggling with mental health issues.

Thankfully I was able to assign her some of the more “nice to have” projects and less time sensitive items so that we did not miss deadlines. A few times I made exceptions and I explained I really needed consistent attendance and effort and she could pull it together for 1-2 weeks at a time, but then sort of break down as soon as the pressure was off.

You are a walking law suit.

Agree.

Why? Because I accommodated her limitations by shifting her work to tasks that wouldn’t result in her failing and getting a terrible annual review - until she identified a different role and transferred internally to something she thought was a better fit? I didn’t ask her to transfer. She could have stayed in her role indefinitely and I would have been stuck working around the fact that none of us ever knew if she would choose to come to work each day.

[Anonymous]

I think you hired my ex employee. Did same thing on vacation.

I went to HR and it turns out if under one year intelligible FMLA which is only way to book unpaid time.

I then told her unpaid time not allowed. You either come to work or use days accrued or be off boarded for job abandonment.

She left within two weeks in her own

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you hired my ex employee. Did same thing on vacation.

I went to HR and it turns out if under one year intelligible FMLA which is only way to book unpaid time.

I then told her unpaid time not allowed. You either come to work or use days accrued or be off boarded for job abandonment.

She left within two weeks in her own

same thing on probation not vacation.

Bottom line she is under one year and on probation unpaid time not allowed. Make her or him show up

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since he's still on probation, I'd just let him go.

If you can, let him go. This is a pattern that will continue and this is your only chance to get rid of him if he is in a union!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have been been at my job for 2 months. One of my subordinates has taken 80+ hours of sick leave in 2 months. He is new and still on probation and has no sick leave left and has been taking sick leave without pay. HR has noticed this pattern and notified me and my boss that this is excessive. They have indicated that a doctor's note is required for 5 days of consecutive sick leave. My subordinate has not taken more than 3 consecutive days. Since org guidelines do not state a doctor's note is required on days 1-4, what are my options? The organization I work for is a state government agency with union protection. My subordinate has stated that he has another full-time job. The current job requires everyone to disclose outside employment. He is FT at this job too. Overall I think he is a good (not stellar) employee overall but obviously this amount of sick leave is not sustainable. I am his backup and my day is shot every time he is out. I also worry that asking for a doctor's note every time he is sick is outside the boundaries of what is allowed. My gut is telling me he is working his other job.

Anyone with input??

Wait, what? Why has he not been fired already?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“My Subordinate”?

Two weeks of sick leave in two months is a lot but I bet they need it after working for you.

Not OP, but sorry you can’t manage, hon.

Not PP, but stop it with the “hon” stuff. You sound stupid and immature, and you are contributing to the bad condescending vibe so common at DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Who is approving the sick leave without pay? At my federal job it would be hard to get this approved absent FMLA (which would need paperwork).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.

What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.

I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.

+1000

With the generous sick leave at the government, no one should be at a zero balance absent very serious circumstances. And yet there are many employees who don’t have those circumstances and are constantly at a leave balance of zero—and it is virtually always the low performers. Excuse after excuse after excuse— for why they can’t make it to work and for why their work isn’t done when they do.

The people getting all riled up about this clearly don’t manage people. Or not a lot of them anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.

What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.

I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.

This is such a disgusting american attitude that is not seen in any other place I've worked. I earn my leave. I will sure as hell use my leave. How dare you judge someone's work ethic based on using their own earned time Shitty bosses gonna be shitty bosses

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.

What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.

I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.

+1000

With the generous sick leave at the government, no one should be at a zero balance absent very serious circumstances. And yet there are many employees who don’t have those circumstances and are constantly at a leave balance of zero—and it is virtually always the low performers. Excuse after excuse after excuse— for why they can’t make it to work and for why their work isn’t done when they do.

The people getting all riled up about this clearly don’t manage people. Or not a lot of them anyway.

I’m a fed, get good performance reviews and find it hard to keep my sick leave above zero. A friend who is a manager and has been a fed over 15 years does as well. I suspect it’s because we both have children that have needed a lot of appointments. We both had our children before the federal government offered any paid leave (my husband in private industry had 6 weeks paternity leave) and that (plus kids getting sick in daycare) ran our balances down. My younger daughter has “graduated” from speech therapy but, for a few years she had an hour of speech therapy and an hour of occupational therapy a week. Luckily my husband’s job is flexible and he covers a lot of her appointments but the weeks I have to take her to these that’s all the sick leave I earn (ie 4 hrs every two weeks). In between having kids and my daughter’s appointments, a few years ago I got a concussion and had to take a full week of leave for that. The weeks I cover her appointments I try to work extra hours another day during the week, but that can he hard. My manager friend has two SN children so that’s an even bigger demand.

I do think having a whole separate full-time job is a problem though. For instance, they could probably work extra hours to cover their sick leave if it were not for the extra job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.

What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.

I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.

This is such a disgusting american attitude that is not seen in any other place I've worked. I earn my leave. I will sure as hell use my leave. How dare you judge someone's work ethic based on using their own earned time Shitty bosses gonna be shitty bosses

You clearly fall to understand sick leave and clearly have not had to manage people—and my educated guess? You are the shitty one in your office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.

What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.

I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.

This is such a disgusting american attitude that is not seen in any other place I've worked. I earn my leave. I will sure as hell use my leave. How dare you judge someone's work ethic based on using their own earned time Shitty bosses gonna be shitty bosses

You clearly fall to understand sick leave and clearly have not had to manage people—and my educated guess? You are the shitty one in your office.

My VP encourages me to use up my leave, and I encourage my reports to use up theirs. We can only roll over 5 days total per year, and our entire org prioritizes w/l balance.

[Anonymous]

OP, I've been there. You have a window of opportunity to make the right move and let them go during probation. Do it.

Otherwise this behavior will continue, you'll have to jump through a ton more hoops to dismiss them, and they'll likely claim a disability at some point that makes dismissal even harder. Bit the bullet and take action today before it's too late.