Which is the better VA university: VA Tech or JMU?

[Anonymous]

I wish USNWR would stop reporting acceptance rates. Too many dummies unthinkingly equate them with selectivity.

Acceptance rate means nothing without understanding the applicant pool. It is well-known that many commuter schools have "low" acceptance rates simply because they receive a large number of unqualified applicants for whom the school is geographically convenient. Conversely, geographic isolation tends to raise a school's acceptance rates, for obvious reasons. VT is fairly isolated.

In the state of Florida, FIU (Florida International University) has the lowest acceptance rate in Florida. Do you think it's harder to get into FIU than UF or FSU?

You would really need to compare the *enrolled* (NOT admitted) freshman profiles to determine selectivity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wish USNWR would stop reporting acceptance rates. Too many dummies unthinkingly equate them with selectivity.

Acceptance rate means nothing without understanding the applicant pool. It is well-known that many commuter schools have "low" acceptance rates simply because they receive a large number of unqualified applicants for whom the school is geographically convenient. Conversely, geographic isolation tends to raise a school's acceptance rates, for obvious reasons. VT is fairly isolated.

In the state of Florida, FIU (Florida International University) has the lowest acceptance rate in Florida. Do you think it's harder to get into FIU than UF or FSU?

You would really need to compare the *enrolled* (NOT admitted) freshman profiles to determine selectivity.

FIU is arguably no less "prestigious" than FSU and similar to VT in terms of selectivity.

[Anonymous]

Not even close.

Middle 50% of GPAs for freshmen:

FIU
----
GPA 3.4 - 4.0
SAT: 1050-1240
M: 520-620 R: 530-620 (W: 520-610)

VT
----
3.84 - 4.27
SAT: 1,160-1,340

FSU
-----
3.9 - 4.4
SAT: 1,250 - 1,300
M: 590-670 R: 660-630 (W: 580-630)


FSU and VT are comparable. FIU is not.


http://www.flbog.edu/about/_doc/cod/asa/admission_2015/Matrix.pdf

http://www.admiss.vt.edu/apply/freshman-snapshot/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not even close.

Middle 50% of GPAs for freshmen:

FIU
----
GPA 3.4 - 4.0
SAT: 1050-1240
M: 520-620 R: 530-620 (W: 520-610)

VT
----
3.84 - 4.27
SAT: 1,160-1,340

FSU
-----
3.9 - 4.4
SAT: 1,250 - 1,300
M: 590-670 R: 660-630 (W: 580-630)


FSU and VT are comparable. FIU is not.


http://www.flbog.edu/about/_doc/cod/asa/admission_2015/Matrix.pdf

http://www.admiss.vt.edu/apply/freshman-snapshot/

Doesn't look that far off ... The median SAT and GPA for FSU is higher than VT and FIU but not by much...they are all equivalently mediocre...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not even close.

Middle 50% of GPAs for freshmen:

FIU
----
GPA 3.4 - 4.0
SAT: 1050-1240
M: 520-620 R: 530-620 (W: 520-610)

VT
----
3.84 - 4.27
SAT: 1,160-1,340

FSU
-----
3.9 - 4.4
SAT: 1,250 - 1,300
M: 590-670 R: 660-630 (W: 580-630)


FSU and VT are comparable. FIU is not.


http://www.flbog.edu/about/_doc/cod/asa/admission_2015/Matrix.pdf

http://www.admiss.vt.edu/apply/freshman-snapshot/

Doesn't look that far off ... The median SAT and GPA for FSU is higher than VT and FIU but not by much...they are all equivalently mediocre...

as is your use of English

[Anonymous]

Both JMU and VT are great schools with some overlapping strengths and some different strengths. JMU is decidedly more undergraduate focused -- almost all classes taught by full professors. At VT, you are far more likely to have a grad assistant teaching intro level classes. The first levels of calculus are taught in a "math emporium" at VT using an on-line program -- a converted department store with rows of computers where undergrad students work at their own pace through intro level math classes and there are some grad students available to help if needed. But why go to a college away from home to just study online in a warehouse? It is typical that people automatically think the schools with big grad departments are better -- they tend to have more money overall and be better known. However, these schools are not always optimal for undergraduate growth and attention. Go to JMU if you want more attention from professors and smaller classes, VT if you want exposure to robust S&T research and big name sports. JMU has many high performing students. My daughter had over a 4.0 in high school, a 31 on her ACT. She wanted to major in GIS (mapping technology) and minor in Spanish, so applied to both JMU and VT, because they both have great programs in that. She ended up choosing JMU due to the smaller classes, easier access to professors, focused freshman orientation, smaller overall size, and smaller classes -- not to mention less time on I-81. There is virtually no difference in the quality of undergrads between the two schools when you are looking outside of the engineering school at VT. The vast majority of their super high performing students are in the engineering and architecture schools. Their other colleges are on PAR with JMU students. And JMU's undergrad business school is more highly rated. So quit saying with absolute certainty that one school has better students than the other -- that's hogwash. You can find great students at both, as well as students who were accepted at both and chose one over the other for a variety of reasons. Not every single student at every school more highly rated by US News (a very flawed rating system IMHO) is automatically better than every student at a lesser ranked school. All schools have strong and less strong departments, pluses and minuses, and some good and bad students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Both JMU and VT are great schools with some overlapping strengths and some different strengths. JMU is decidedly more undergraduate focused -- almost all classes taught by full professors. At VT, you are far more likely to have a grad assistant teaching intro level classes. The first levels of calculus are taught in a "math emporium" at VT using an on-line program -- a converted department store with rows of computers where undergrad students work at their own pace through intro level math classes and there are some grad students available to help if needed. But why go to a college away from home to just study online in a warehouse? It is typical that people automatically think the schools with big grad departments are better -- they tend to have more money overall and be better known. However, these schools are not always optimal for undergraduate growth and attention. Go to JMU if you want more attention from professors and smaller classes, VT if you want exposure to robust S&T research and big name sports. JMU has many high performing students. My daughter had over a 4.0 in high school, a 31 on her ACT. She wanted to major in GIS (mapping technology) and minor in Spanish, so applied to both JMU and VT, because they both have great programs in that. She ended up choosing JMU due to the smaller classes, easier access to professors, focused freshman orientation, smaller overall size, and smaller classes -- not to mention less time on I-81. There is virtually no difference in the quality of undergrads between the two schools when you are looking outside of the engineering school at VT. The vast majority of their super high performing students are in the engineering and architecture schools. Their other colleges are on PAR with JMU students. And JMU's undergrad business school is more highly rated. So quit saying with absolute certainty that one school has better students than the other -- that's hogwash. You can find great students at both, as well as students who were accepted at both and chose one over the other for a variety of reasons. Not every single student at every school more highly rated by US News (a very flawed rating system IMHO) is automatically better than every student at a lesser ranked school. All schools have strong and less strong departments, pluses and minuses, and some good and bad students.

Thanks - this is very informative and useful!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Both JMU and VT are great schools with some overlapping strengths and some different strengths. JMU is decidedly more undergraduate focused -- almost all classes taught by full professors. At VT, you are far more likely to have a grad assistant teaching intro level classes. The first levels of calculus are taught in a "math emporium" at VT using an on-line program -- a converted department store with rows of computers where undergrad students work at their own pace through intro level math classes and there are some grad students available to help if needed. But why go to a college away from home to just study online in a warehouse? It is typical that people automatically think the schools with big grad departments are better -- they tend to have more money overall and be better known. However, these schools are not always optimal for undergraduate growth and attention. Go to JMU if you want more attention from professors and smaller classes, VT if you want exposure to robust S&T research and big name sports. JMU has many high performing students. My daughter had over a 4.0 in high school, a 31 on her ACT. She wanted to major in GIS (mapping technology) and minor in Spanish, so applied to both JMU and VT, because they both have great programs in that. She ended up choosing JMU due to the smaller classes, easier access to professors, focused freshman orientation, smaller overall size, and smaller classes -- not to mention less time on I-81. There is virtually no difference in the quality of undergrads between the two schools when you are looking outside of the engineering school at VT. The vast majority of their super high performing students are in the engineering and architecture schools. Their other colleges are on PAR with JMU students. And JMU's undergrad business school is more highly rated. So quit saying with absolute certainty that one school has better students than the other -- that's hogwash. You can find great students at both, as well as students who were accepted at both and chose one over the other for a variety of reasons. Not every single student at every school more highly rated by US News (a very flawed rating system IMHO) is automatically better than every student at a lesser ranked school. All schools have strong and less strong departments, pluses and minuses, and some good and bad students.

Great post and very true!

[Anonymous]

Some Virginia admissions history here folks...
Some suggest here that VT's standing as the #3 school of choice in VA is threatened by the rise of JMU. As one who applied to all of these schools in the early 1980's, I can say without hesitation that JMU was always preferable to VT for anyone majoring in anything other than engineering or architecture (and perhaps hard sciences). Liberal Arts, Business, and pre-law people always picked JMU over VT as another choice beyond W&M and UVA. Additionally, if you can get hold of some admissions statistics from the late 80's into the 90's in Virginia, you will see that W&M was harder to get into than UVA for many years. None of this is to say that any of these schools is absolutely better than the others -- just what was more popular at the time and perceived as more selective. Great students went to and graduated from them all. We are very lucky in Virginia to have the schools we do -- other states' public universities largely pale in comparison in both quality and variety of choice (large, small, liberal arts, technical, etc) - only NC, California, and possibly Michigan come close. A few have one standout flagship but not as high quality second tier options as VA does. In terms of having notable alums, W&M probably stands out the most. Over the last decade, W&M, which has about 5,800 undergrads now and is relatively small compared to the other three most popular schools in VA (UVA, VT, and JMU), boasts the following, which I bet most people don't know but is an incredible line up of very cool, smart, and creative people across a wide variety of fields: Robert Gates, recent Head of the CIA and US Secretary of Defense; Charles "Chip" Esten, country music singer and actor on Nashville; Mike Tomlin, current Head Coach, NFL Pittsburgh Steelers; Bill Lawrence, creator and writer of TV shows "Scrubs" and "Spin City;" Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the US; John Marshall, 1st Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court; Jon Stewart, Comedian and former Host of Comedy Central; James Comey, Head of the FBI; Dr. Ellen Stofan, current Chief Scientist of NASA; David M. Brown, NASA Astronaut on the Space Shuttle Columbia; Glen Close, Hollywood and Broadway Actress; Perry Ellis, Fashion Designer; James Monroe, 5th President of the US; Jill Ellis, Head Coach, Championship US Women's National Soccer Team 2015; Christina Romer, former Chief Economic Advisor to President Obama; George Washington, 1st President of the US; Jonathan Jarvis, current Head of the National Park Service; Linda Lavin, TV Actress, including star of the 70's hit show "Alice;" Raymond "Chip" Mason, founder and former CEO, Legg Mason Investment group; John Tyler, 10th President of the US; Patton Oswalt, Comedian and voice of Remy on Ratatouille; Eric Cantor, recent US Representative of many years voted out by the Tea Party; dozens of MLB and NFL players over the years until the present, a number of signers of the Declaration of Independence, and many governors of Virginia. In defense of JMU (am defending the undergrad focused schools here, because US News ignores them in favor of big schools with large grad programs...even thought it's supposed to be ranking undergrad strengths), this school not only has a top notch undergrad business school (number three to only UVA and WM), but also produces the most teachers in Virginia, boasts a large number of CEO's of companies in the DC region, and has a powerful presence in the media/communications field, including ESPN anchor Lindsay Czarniak, as well as others high up in ESPN; high level presence in CNN, and in Discovery Channel management. JMU's nursing school has beat UVA's nursing school (and GMU's and VCU's) in a popular Virginia State nursing competition for the last four or five years. This school is no slouch and has many smart students who are going places. This is NOT to say that UVA and VT don't -- just to point out the great things that make two of the most undergrad focused schools in VA stand out in their own right, WM and JMU, despite the fact that they are underrated by the likes of US News (whose methodology is flawed at best and highly misleading, and doesn't focus on attributes that matter the most to undergrads). The differences in SATs between JMU and VT are statistically insignificant, especially when you consider that most of the high-scorers at VT are concentrated in the engineering school and to some extent the architecture program. The vast majority of students there are on par with JMU students. All four of the most popular schools, as well as others such as GMU, CNU, VCU, and UMW, have great things to offer and give us Virginians a wide range of high quality choices in sizes and types of schools.

[Anonymous]

Great post PP!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great post PP!

+1
Very informative.

[Anonymous]

Ouch. Guess paragraph breaks aren't taught at any VA university?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. JMU isn't ranked at all on the USNWR list of National Universities (or SLACs). VT is in the 60s last I saw.

2. Ignoring point #1, you know it's easier to "take a bigger jump in the rankings" when you have much more room to jump, right? Saying that JMU is "up and coming" or whatever says nothing to take away from VT. Tech is ranked high and harder to get into for anyone in the DCUM range.

3. Squabble on.

OK I'll bite into this discussion because I actually have kids at both. Warning, I worked for USN&WR back in the 1980s as a data analyst so this perspective might be a little boring

1. Colleges and Universities are grouped in the USN Rankings based on number of Doctoral degrees granted (or more accurately, Carnegie Basic Classification). For example - GMU, VT, VCU and ODU all share similar Basic Classification for larger number of Doctoral Degrees and are ranked together as "National U"s...on the other hand JMU, Villanova, Providence College, Mary Washington, etc. all share similar Basic Classification for smaller number of Doctoral Degrees and are ranked together as "Regional U"s. In its (admittedly tougher) category, Virginia Tech is in the 70's. In its (admittedly easier) category, JMU ranks #5.

2. In point of fact, JMU and VT have both dipped in their respective rankings. Back in the 1980s when Wake Forest U (was always #1), Furman (often switched with JMU for #3) and the University of Richmond (always #2) were ranked as Southern "Regional U"s by US News, JMU was a consistent #3 or 4. VT on the other hand used to rank favorably with schools like UMCP in the "National U"s, but no longer.
3. I love squabbling but they are both fine schools. Over the years the schools have traded off in terms of SAT average of entering class. Currently VT's is about 50 points higher because James Madison has expanded their Entering Class Size from something like 1,000-1,500 in the 1980s to 4,000-4,300 today (and its acceptance rate is much higher than in the 1980s).

Another point of caution for you VT/JMU squabblers. I was looking at JMU's Institutional Research site. They awarded so many doctorates over the past few years that they will have their basic classification changed (just as UR, WFU and others have a decade ago). However, when it changes, it is likely to be grouped by USN in the "National Liberal Arts" Category (like UR) rather than "National U"s. So this debate will likely not be settled...

For the record, my opinion is that VT is better for STEM, JMU for Business and LA for what it is worth.

Hope this helps.

This may be the best post on DCUM...

Great post and highly consistent with what I remember in the 90s. While I ended up going to Wake Forest, I remember JMU as being a well thought of school. It was much smaller then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ouch. Guess paragraph breaks aren't taught at any VA university?

A lot of words are scary aren't they?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ouch. Guess paragraph breaks aren't taught at any VA university?

A lot of words are scary aren't they?