STEM kid only looking at Research universities?

[Anonymous]

OP, sounds like your son is doing the smart thing

[Anonymous]

OP— I have a kid at TJ applying to LACs next year. And it depends on the LAC. Some are know for being pre-professional, and are going to have classes full of pre-med, pre-law, etc. which is what you want for a kid who wants to be an MD. Others produce more kids per capita (not total, because much smaller class size) who go on to get a PhD than most Ivys. And the list of where they send kids is is super impressive.

For example, my kid is looking at Wooster. I had barely heard of it and thought no way. Then I looked at the PhD numbers in their area of interest and where kids went for PhDs. And the requirement to do a senior research project. And it looked a lot more impressive. A lot. Add in that my kid will likely kid significant, if not full merit aid, and it is worth considering.

If your kid is not pre-professional, then check this out. The top ten PhD producers per capita in various areas.


http://www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/

In bio— Reed, Carleton, Grinnell, Haverford, Kalamazoo, Swarthmore and Mudd are on the list, along with Cal Tech, Chicago and MIT. I know off the top of my head Grinnell has good merit aid. Looking at LACs, I’d start there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP— I have a kid at TJ applying to LACs next year. And it depends on the LAC. Some are know for being pre-professional, and are going to have classes full of pre-med, pre-law, etc. which is what you want for a kid who wants to be an MD. Others produce more kids per capita (not total, because much smaller class size) who go on to get a PhD than most Ivys. And the list of where they send kids is is super impressive.

For example, my kid is looking at Wooster. I had barely heard of it and thought no way. Then I looked at the PhD numbers in their area of interest and where kids went for PhDs. And the requirement to do a senior research project. And it looked a lot more impressive. A lot. Add in that my kid will likely kid significant, if not full merit aid, and it is worth considering.

If your kid is not pre-professional, then check this out. The top ten PhD producers per capita in various areas.


http://www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/

In bio— Reed, Carleton, Grinnell, Haverford, Kalamazoo, Swarthmore and Mudd are on the list, along with Cal Tech, Chicago and MIT. I know off the top of my head Grinnell has good merit aid. Looking at LACs, I’d start there.

OP here: Thank you! Right now, pre-MED ambitions are not there, but it has been discussed. Who knows? I have read of certain schools which are known as “pre med factories” and my gut reaction is, DC would absolutely hate that environment. Again, thank you for sharing the list above.

[Anonymous]

bTW—top 50 sc ools that produce science PhDs I had bookmarked. 2010, so you might want to search for an updated list. But I bet the top 20 of this list holds up. It’s where to look if your kid what’s research and not an MD (yes, I know some MDs research...). It’s a mix of school sizes. But some LACs do very well.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-50-schools-that-produce-science-phds/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to a huge university (Berkeley). Once you get into the major and get beyond the feeder courses, it's not all huge classes; you do get know your professors. Each school and major is like a smaller university inside a huge one, with all the resources of a big research school.

The only reason not to go to a big school IMO (besides personal taste), is if you are not at all self-directed. It is really, really easy to fall into party culture, cutting classes, etc., because there is very little oversight those first few semesters, and there are a lot of opportunities for distraction. Also, no one is going to notice or care if you miss your 250-person lecture.

Yeah - this was my undergrad experience at a top university, and I have major regrets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:bTW—top 50 sc ools that produce science PhDs I had bookmarked. 2010, so you might want to search for an updated list. But I bet the top 20 of this list holds up. It’s where to look if your kid what’s research and not an MD (yes, I know some MDs research...). It’s a mix of school sizes. But some LACs do very well.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-50-schools-that-produce-science-phds/

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:bTW—top 50 sc ools that produce science PhDs I had bookmarked. 2010, so you might want to search for an updated list. But I bet the top 20 of this list holds up. It’s where to look if your kid what’s research and not an MD (yes, I know some MDs research...). It’s a mix of school sizes. But some LACs do very well.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-50-schools-that-produce-science-phds/

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing!

That’s only half the study. Here’s what NSF says about that list:

“This finding contrasts sharply with the baccalaureate origins of the absolute number of S&E PhDs. The top 50 known U.S. baccalaureate-origin institutions of 1997–2006 S&E doctorate recipients are almost all research institutions with very high research activity, and more than half are public institutions (table 3). Two (Brigham Young University and College of William and Mary) have high research activity. None are baccalaureate colleges. The top 5 baccalaureate-origin institutions of 1997–2006 S&E doctorate recipients are: University of California Berkeley, Cornell University, University of Michigan Ann Arbor, University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, and Massachusetts Institute of Technology.”

And here’s the list of the actual top 50 undergrad schools wrt the production of STEM PhDs:

https://wayback.archive-it.org/5902/20160210152803/http%3A//www%2Ensf%2Egov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/tab3.gif

I think that the first list tells you that certainly you can get there (STEM PhD) from here (LAC BA) and gives you a sense of which LACs are best suited if that’s the path you want to take. But it doesn’t make the case that LACs are the best place to study if you want to get a STEM PhD.

[Anonymous]

Personally I think you're being a helicopter parent. From the way that you've described your son, he's a hard working and high achieving student. And he knows what he wants. Get out of the way and let him choose his own college.

[Anonymous]

What is your DC's college counseling program like? Sometimes it's easier to have a counselor (rather than a parent) steer your kid to LACs, as opposed to larger state and research unis.

If your kid is PhD material, there is little doubt that getting a head start at a LAC benefits him/her. Yes, you will hear one-offs about people at large state and R1s who got into great PhD programs, but the fact of the matter is that statistically, the schools that produce the most PhDs in the sciences (actually, overall) per capita are LACs. There are many reasons for this, but the primary one is that you are much more likely to forge a strong relationship with a faculty mentor. Faculty at LACs have many incentives to teach well; faculty at R1s have virtually no incentive to teach well. These relationships with your undergrad mentors are key to getting into top PhD programs, which are super competitive. Your scores alone won't get you into these programs; a phone call from your undergrad mentor (in addition to top scores) will.

-Professor at R1, with undergrad degree from SLAC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Personally I think you're being a helicopter parent. From the way that you've described your son, he's a hard working and high achieving student. And he knows what he wants. Get out of the way and let him choose his own college.

That's fair. But DC is 17, and I'm new to college admissions. Just wanted to make sure we aren't missing anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:bTW—top 50 sc ools that produce science PhDs I had bookmarked. 2010, so you might want to search for an updated list. But I bet the top 20 of this list holds up. It’s where to look if your kid what’s research and not an MD (yes, I know some MDs research...). It’s a mix of school sizes. But some LACs do very well.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-50-schools-that-produce-science-phds/

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing!

That’s only half the study. Here’s what NSF says about that list:

“This finding contrasts sharply with the baccalaureate origins of the absolute number of S&E PhDs. The top 50 known U.S. baccalaureate-origin institutions of 1997–2006 S&E doctorate recipients are almost all research institutions with very high research activity, and more than half are public institutions (table 3). Two (Brigham Young University and College of William and Mary) have high research activity. None are baccalaureate colleges. The top 5 baccalaureate-origin institutions of 1997–2006 S&E doctorate recipients are: University of California Berkeley, Cornell University, University of Michigan Ann Arbor, University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, and Massachusetts Institute of Technology.”

And here’s the list of the actual top 50 undergrad schools wrt the production of STEM PhDs:

https://wayback.archive-it.org/5902/20160210152803/http%3A//www%2Ensf%2Egov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/tab3.gif

I think that the first list tells you that certainly you can get there (STEM PhD) from here (LAC BA) and gives you a sense of which LACs are best suited if that’s the path you want to take. But it doesn’t make the case that LACs are the best place to study if you want to get a STEM PhD.

Very interesting data. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Personally I think you're being a helicopter parent. From the way that you've described your son, he's a hard working and high achieving student. And he knows what he wants. Get out of the way and let him choose his own college.

That's fair. But DC is 17, and I'm new to college admissions. Just wanted to make sure we aren't missing anything.

You're not missing anything. I assure you that your son is talking to a lot of people about his list. I had kids go to research universities and to liberal arts colleges, and neither is a panacea. But, more importantly, they all figured out on their own which made more sense for them, and they all ended up being right. Don't get too caught up in all the hoopla. Let your son take the lead.

[Anonymous]

I am a research scientist. The truth is, if you want a STEM PhD, deciding which school to go for undergrad based on grad school completion is not the way to go. Find the one which will be the best fit for your child.

Because, getting into grad school as an English speaking student is not that competitive, particularly when compared to undergrad admissions.

The admissions statistics shown are not broken down by English vs. Non-english speakers. But that really matters, as anyone that has had a TA from China will tell you.

Where I did my PhD, we accepted about 70% of the US applicants and offered funding to about 1/2 of those. By comparison, we admitted about 15% of the non-US applicants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DC has put together a preliminary list of schools to apply for admission (science/engineering). Great stats, high test scores/solid grades, ECs are music & science, some sports.

The list is comprised of all research universities. Do you think it’s a mistake to not consider any liberal arts colleges at all? I think the isolated campus locations and small sizes may have been the deterrent. I personally like the potential for more personal attention that LACs offer.

I have no clue. DC is our oldest. Thoughts?

Maybe another approach would be to look for research universities where it's easy to take courses in any discipline, no matter what your major or school is, and where the school has a reputation for being nice to undergrads. Example: my impression is that Yale is a lot nicer to undergrads than Columbia is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC has put together a preliminary list of schools to apply for admission (science/engineering). Great stats, high test scores/solid grades, ECs are music & science, some sports.

The list is comprised of all research universities. Do you think it’s a mistake to not consider any liberal arts colleges at all? I think the isolated campus locations and small sizes may have been the deterrent. I personally like the potential for more personal attention that LACs offer.

I have no clue. DC is our oldest. Thoughts?

Maybe another approach would be to look for research universities where it's easy to take courses in any discipline, no matter what your major or school is, and where the school has a reputation for being nice to undergrads. Example: my impression is that Yale is a lot nicer to undergrads than Columbia is.

That's a good idea, OP -- just send your kid to Yale.

Does this poster have any idea how silly and elitist she sounds?