Passing Up SES Opportunity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…

We're in our early 40s with young kids. My spouse has been an SES for about 5 years, and I was recently asked by leadership if I might want to make the jump to SES. …

Try to make it clear that it might be the right job, but maybe just not the right time. Don't close the door if you'd want that opportunity 5 years from now.

You’re young so this last point maybe the most important. I’ve been a GS15 for almost 15 years and am mid-50s now. We have about two dozen people like me in our division. At a meeting about staffing this morning someone brought up the lack of SES opportunities. Leadership responded that someone would probably retire in the next five years and so there’d be one spot. We looked at each other and someone said “but half of us are eligible to retire by then as well, so you’re saying there’s no path to move up left in our careers.”

A reason to consider this opportunity is that it can be worse to stagnate than to be challenged.

Is it so terrible to stagnate though? You have a challenging, rewarding job with flexibility and seniority. I know so many 15s in this position. What is the harm in being satisfied with what you have? I struggle with this too but I also work to live no live to work and have to remind myself of that

PP. a fair question, and the answer is “it depends”. Where I am it took most of us years of sustained high levels of effort to get the positions we’re in, and yes, it’s great to be a non supervisory GS15. But the characteristics that got us where we are doesn’t let us sit on our laurels for twenty years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Career-SES for over a year. Just turned 40. I have 2 kid who are 5 and under. The culture of the agency matters as does the assignment. If you have good leadership skills and know how to effectively delegate, you'll be fine and you'll find a work/life balance. If you don't know how to trust your staff or delegate, you will always be working. Apply and see what happens. The hardest part of being an SES is the getting through the application and selection process. However, doing the application and preparing for the interviews helps you understand if it is truly what you want. But don't be the person you says they could have been an SES if they only they submitted an application. That is a cop out.

+1. I’ve been career SES for 4 years now. It’s not sunshine and butterflies, but it doesn’t suck either. I trust my people and I employ a participatory approach to governance. I monitor for signs of burnout and push back when politicals come with craziness. But my pushbacks aren’t emotional. I use data and other information to make my case. Sure, I’ve had political (particularly under Trump) not be super happy with me, but they understood and we worked together to determine what was reasonable. I had one instance where the political insisted. Instead of forcing my people through that hell, I took it on to protect their sanity. Plus, I came up with a good workaround that really wasn’t too hard to execute once I figured out the path. A good SES is strategic and politically savvy. Morale in my unit of 63 people is second highest (consistent mid 80 percentile) and My division EXCEEDED our all 5 of our key performance metrics. I regularly work 50 hour weeks, but I NEVER do more than 60 (ever). Last year I worked 60 hours 3 out of 52 weeks. And I was still able to take 22 days of annual leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Career-SES for over a year. Just turned 40. I have 2 kid who are 5 and under. The culture of the agency matters as does the assignment. If you have good leadership skills and know how to effectively delegate, you'll be fine and you'll find a work/life balance. If you don't know how to trust your staff or delegate, you will always be working. Apply and see what happens. The hardest part of being an SES is the getting through the application and selection process. However, doing the application and preparing for the interviews helps you understand if it is truly what you want. But don't be the person you says they could have been an SES if they only they submitted an application. That is a cop out.

+1. I’ve been career SES for 4 years now. It’s not sunshine and butterflies, but it doesn’t suck either. I trust my people and I employ a participatory approach to governance. I monitor for signs of burnout and push back when politicals come with craziness. But my pushbacks aren’t emotional. I use data and other information to make my case. Sure, I’ve had political (particularly under Trump) not be super happy with me, but they understood and we worked together to determine what was reasonable. I had one instance where the political insisted. Instead of forcing my people through that hell, I took it on to protect their sanity. Plus, I came up with a good workaround that really wasn’t too hard to execute once I figured out the path. A good SES is strategic and politically savvy. Morale in my unit of 63 people is second highest (consistent mid 80 percentile) and My division EXCEEDED our all 5 of our key performance metrics. I regularly work 50 hour weeks, but I NEVER do more than 60 (ever). Last year I worked 60 hours 3 out of 52 weeks. And I was still able to take 22 days of annual leave.

This sounds terrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Career-SES for over a year. Just turned 40. I have 2 kid who are 5 and under. The culture of the agency matters as does the assignment. If you have good leadership skills and know how to effectively delegate, you'll be fine and you'll find a work/life balance. If you don't know how to trust your staff or delegate, you will always be working. Apply and see what happens. The hardest part of being an SES is the getting through the application and selection process. However, doing the application and preparing for the interviews helps you understand if it is truly what you want. But don't be the person you says they could have been an SES if they only they submitted an application. That is a cop out.

+1. I’ve been career SES for 4 years now. It’s not sunshine and butterflies, but it doesn’t suck either. I trust my people and I employ a participatory approach to governance. I monitor for signs of burnout and push back when politicals come with craziness. But my pushbacks aren’t emotional. I use data and other information to make my case. Sure, I’ve had political (particularly under Trump) not be super happy with me, but they understood and we worked together to determine what was reasonable. I had one instance where the political insisted. Instead of forcing my people through that hell, I took it on to protect their sanity. Plus, I came up with a good workaround that really wasn’t too hard to execute once I figured out the path. A good SES is strategic and politically savvy. Morale in my unit of 63 people is second highest (consistent mid 80 percentile) and My division EXCEEDED our all 5 of our key performance metrics. I regularly work 50 hour weeks, but I NEVER do more than 60 (ever). Last year I worked 60 hours 3 out of 52 weeks. And I was still able to take 22 days of annual leave.

This sounds terrible.

Not for SES. It's called Senior Executive Service for a reason. You're an executive leader, just like in the private sector, so you work executive hours. As the poster indicated, you have to manage political leaders who change every 4 to 8 years, as well as strategic planning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Career-SES for over a year. Just turned 40. I have 2 kid who are 5 and under. The culture of the agency matters as does the assignment. If you have good leadership skills and know how to effectively delegate, you'll be fine and you'll find a work/life balance. If you don't know how to trust your staff or delegate, you will always be working. Apply and see what happens. The hardest part of being an SES is the getting through the application and selection process. However, doing the application and preparing for the interviews helps you understand if it is truly what you want. But don't be the person you says they could have been an SES if they only they submitted an application. That is a cop out.

+1. I’ve been career SES for 4 years now. It’s not sunshine and butterflies, but it doesn’t suck either. I trust my people and I employ a participatory approach to governance. I monitor for signs of burnout and push back when politicals come with craziness. But my pushbacks aren’t emotional. I use data and other information to make my case. Sure, I’ve had political (particularly under Trump) not be super happy with me, but they understood and we worked together to determine what was reasonable. I had one instance where the political insisted. Instead of forcing my people through that hell, I took it on to protect their sanity. Plus, I came up with a good workaround that really wasn’t too hard to execute once I figured out the path. A good SES is strategic and politically savvy. Morale in my unit of 63 people is second highest (consistent mid 80 percentile) and My division EXCEEDED our all 5 of our key performance metrics. I regularly work 50 hour weeks, but I NEVER do more than 60 (ever). Last year I worked 60 hours 3 out of 52 weeks. And I was still able to take 22 days of annual leave.

This sounds terrible.

Not for SES. It's called Senior Executive Service for a reason. You're an executive leader, just like in the private sector, so you work executive hours. As the poster indicated, you have to manage political leaders who change every 4 to 8 years, as well as strategic planning.

All about ego

[Anonymous]

I have been a GS-15 manager for almost 10 years, since age 35. You could not pay me to take an SES job and in fact I have turned down several (non-career) that were offered, and declined to apply to the career SES spots to open up. I have seen the position descriptions and performance appraisals and they are a ton of bs leadership wordspeak on top of actual job duties. “Leading change” my arse. I am very happy as a first line supervisor and subject matter expert. I also like to fly a little under the radar. The SES pay is more but I am making plenty as it is. I don’t need more money, I need more time to spend with my kids - and SES is the last place I’d look for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Career-SES for over a year. Just turned 40. I have 2 kid who are 5 and under. The culture of the agency matters as does the assignment. If you have good leadership skills and know how to effectively delegate, you'll be fine and you'll find a work/life balance. If you don't know how to trust your staff or delegate, you will always be working. Apply and see what happens. The hardest part of being an SES is the getting through the application and selection process. However, doing the application and preparing for the interviews helps you understand if it is truly what you want. But don't be the person you says they could have been an SES if they only they submitted an application. That is a cop out.

+1. I’ve been career SES for 4 years now. It’s not sunshine and butterflies, but it doesn’t suck either. I trust my people and I employ a participatory approach to governance. I monitor for signs of burnout and push back when politicals come with craziness. But my pushbacks aren’t emotional. I use data and other information to make my case. Sure, I’ve had political (particularly under Trump) not be super happy with me, but they understood and we worked together to determine what was reasonable. I had one instance where the political insisted. Instead of forcing my people through that hell, I took it on to protect their sanity. Plus, I came up with a good workaround that really wasn’t too hard to execute once I figured out the path. A good SES is strategic and politically savvy. Morale in my unit of 63 people is second highest (consistent mid 80 percentile) and My division EXCEEDED our all 5 of our key performance metrics. I regularly work 50 hour weeks, but I NEVER do more than 60 (ever). Last year I worked 60 hours 3 out of 52 weeks. And I was still able to take 22 days of annual leave.

This sounds terrible.

Not for SES. It's called Senior Executive Service for a reason. You're an executive leader, just like in the private sector, so you work executive hours. As the poster indicated, you have to manage political leaders who change every 4 to 8 years, as well as strategic planning.

All about ego

Statements like this are dumb and often from folks who think they know it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have been a GS-15 manager for almost 10 years, since age 35. You could not pay me to take an SES job and in fact I have turned down several (non-career) that were offered, and declined to apply to the career SES spots to open up. I have seen the position descriptions and performance appraisals and they are a ton of bs leadership wordspeak on top of actual job duties. “Leading change” my arse. I am very happy as a first line supervisor and subject matter expert. I also like to fly a little under the radar. The SES pay is more but I am making plenty as it is. I don’t need more money, I need more time to spend with my kids - and SES is the last place I’d look for that.

I understand this perspective. But I also think it’s all about mindset. The people you see in these SES roles don’t really have an executive mindset. Many SES don’t know how to be real leaders and down in the weeds where they don’t belong.

Also, I’m quite sure some of the people below you (GS13 and 14) say the same thing about your job as a 15. There have been threads here complaining about all the work and supervisor woes of a 15. These positions aren’t cut out for everyone. And that’s perfectly fine.

[Anonymous]

I’m not at the cusp like you are, but I already doubt I will pursue SES if the time comes. I recently made the jump from non-supervisory to supervisory and the marginal costs (stress, time) are huge. To me, the salary jump does not equal the jump in costs.

I think happy SESers are born leaders or politicians. They can’t be happy if they’re not using those skills. I’m not like that, so it is not worth it to me. If I felt like something was missing or if I had management skills that weren’t being utilized, I would go for it. However, I am currently more than fully utilized, lol. Not worth it for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…

We're in our early 40s with young kids. My spouse has been an SES for about 5 years, and I was recently asked by leadership if I might want to make the jump to SES. …

Try to make it clear that it might be the right job, but maybe just not the right time. Don't close the door if you'd want that opportunity 5 years from now.

You’re young so this last point maybe the most important. I’ve been a GS15 for almost 15 years and am mid-50s now. We have about two dozen people like me in our division. At a meeting about staffing this morning someone brought up the lack of SES opportunities. Leadership responded that someone would probably retire in the next five years and so there’d be one spot. We looked at each other and someone said “but half of us are eligible to retire by then as well, so you’re saying there’s no path to move up left in our careers.”

A reason to consider this opportunity is that it can be worse to stagnate than to be challenged.

Is it so terrible to stagnate though? You have a challenging, rewarding job with flexibility and seniority. I know so many 15s in this position. What is the harm in being satisfied with what you have? I struggle with this too but I also work to live no live to work and have to remind myself of that

PP. a fair question, and the answer is “it depends”. Where I am it took most of us years of sustained high levels of effort to get the positions we’re in, and yes, it’s great to be a non supervisory GS15. But the characteristics that got us where we are doesn’t let us sit on our laurels for twenty years.

I don’t know what your job is like but for me the reason we have non-sup 15s is because the work is really important and challenging.

I’ve been a 15 for probably a decade and I’m not “sitting on my laurels” — I’m working as hard as I’ve ever worked on really significant projects.

Being SES isn’t harder or more important work than what I’m doing— it’s just different. I applaud the poster who is keeping up morale for 60 people while managing politicals but I am happier doing the substantive work as SME.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Career-SES for over a year. Just turned 40. I have 2 kid who are 5 and under. The culture of the agency matters as does the assignment. If you have good leadership skills and know how to effectively delegate, you'll be fine and you'll find a work/life balance. If you don't know how to trust your staff or delegate, you will always be working. Apply and see what happens. The hardest part of being an SES is the getting through the application and selection process. However, doing the application and preparing for the interviews helps you understand if it is truly what you want. But don't be the person you says they could have been an SES if they only they submitted an application. That is a cop out.

+1. I’ve been career SES for 4 years now. It’s not sunshine and butterflies, but it doesn’t suck either. I trust my people and I employ a participatory approach to governance. I monitor for signs of burnout and push back when politicals come with craziness. But my pushbacks aren’t emotional. I use data and other information to make my case. Sure, I’ve had political (particularly under Trump) not be super happy with me, but they understood and we worked together to determine what was reasonable. I had one instance where the political insisted. Instead of forcing my people through that hell, I took it on to protect their sanity. Plus, I came up with a good workaround that really wasn’t too hard to execute once I figured out the path. A good SES is strategic and politically savvy. Morale in my unit of 63 people is second highest (consistent mid 80 percentile) and My division EXCEEDED our all 5 of our key performance metrics. I regularly work 50 hour weeks, but I NEVER do more than 60 (ever). Last year I worked 60 hours 3 out of 52 weeks. And I was still able to take 22 days of annual leave.

This sounds terrible.

Not for SES. It's called Senior Executive Service for a reason. You're an executive leader, just like in the private sector, so you work executive hours. As the poster indicated, you have to manage political leaders who change every 4 to 8 years, as well as strategic planning.

Our SES are never promoted from within, it’s almost always someone coming in from private industry in their 50s or retiring from the military. I assume they are looking for a good stable role for the twilight of their career, and it’s going to be a lot more balanced than the dogfight for roles in your 50s as a private executive.

[Anonymous]

OP, I could have written this. I said I wasn’t interested but I may be in the future. I was honest about my family needs at this time. I need the work life balance. I also 100% do not want to commit to SES before the November election. I feel no regret whatsoever.

Being a 15 is a goal for many people. They don’t get there until years into their career. Why can’t that be the stopping point (or even lower on the scale), so long as a person is doing well at their job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…

We're in our early 40s with young kids. My spouse has been an SES for about 5 years, and I was recently asked by leadership if I might want to make the jump to SES. …

Try to make it clear that it might be the right job, but maybe just not the right time. Don't close the door if you'd want that opportunity 5 years from now.

You’re young so this last point maybe the most important. I’ve been a GS15 for almost 15 years and am mid-50s now. We have about two dozen people like me in our division. At a meeting about staffing this morning someone brought up the lack of SES opportunities. Leadership responded that someone would probably retire in the next five years and so there’d be one spot. We looked at each other and someone said “but half of us are eligible to retire by then as well, so you’re saying there’s no path to move up left in our careers.”

A reason to consider this opportunity is that it can be worse to stagnate than to be challenged.

Is it so terrible to stagnate though? You have a challenging, rewarding job with flexibility and seniority. I know so many 15s in this position. What is the harm in being satisfied with what you have? I struggle with this too but I also work to live no live to work and have to remind myself of that

PP. a fair question, and the answer is “it depends”. Where I am it took most of us years of sustained high levels of effort to get the positions we’re in, and yes, it’s great to be a non supervisory GS15. But the characteristics that got us where we are doesn’t let us sit on our laurels for twenty years.

But the reality is that everyone has to top out on their career somewhere. As you move up the ladder there are fewer spots so naturally everyone can't get the promotion. In your division of two dozen nonsupervisory 15s, the vast majority of you were never going to be SES. There has effectively never a path to move beyond where you are now, at least not within your division. That writing has always been on the wall, even if you didn't realize it. Plus a SES job is just another place to go and plateau without a clear path for advancement beyond that position. Accepting that your career will likely stagnate somewhere is just accepting reality.

[Anonymous]

Only 0.4% of the career workforce are SES. For people with ambition, it's a difficult goal to achieve, but it can be rewarding for those who want jobs where they make policy and don't just take orders from "higher up" their whole working lives. Of course, everyone has a boss, but the higher up you go in the heirarchy, the more autonomy and responsibility you have, and many people find that desirable. Others prefer to cruise - different strokes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:…

We're in our early 40s with young kids. My spouse has been an SES for about 5 years, and I was recently asked by leadership if I might want to make the jump to SES. …

Try to make it clear that it might be the right job, but maybe just not the right time. Don't close the door if you'd want that opportunity 5 years from now.

You’re young so this last point maybe the most important. I’ve been a GS15 for almost 15 years and am mid-50s now. We have about two dozen people like me in our division. At a meeting about staffing this morning someone brought up the lack of SES opportunities. Leadership responded that someone would probably retire in the next five years and so there’d be one spot. We looked at each other and someone said “but half of us are eligible to retire by then as well, so you’re saying there’s no path to move up left in our careers.”

A reason to consider this opportunity is that it can be worse to stagnate than to be challenged.

Is it so terrible to stagnate though? You have a challenging, rewarding job with flexibility and seniority. I know so many 15s in this position. What is the harm in being satisfied with what you have? I struggle with this too but I also work to live no live to work and have to remind myself of that

PP. a fair question, and the answer is “it depends”. Where I am it took most of us years of sustained high levels of effort to get the positions we’re in, and yes, it’s great to be a non supervisory GS15. But the characteristics that got us where we are doesn’t let us sit on our laurels for twenty years.

I don’t know what your job is like but for me the reason we have non-sup 15s is because the work is really important and challenging.

I’ve been a 15 for probably a decade and I’m not “sitting on my laurels” — I’m working as hard as I’ve ever worked on really significant projects.

Being SES isn’t harder or more important work than what I’m doing— it’s just different. I applaud the poster who is keeping up morale for 60 people while managing politicals but I am happier doing the substantive work as SME.

Lol. I’m the person you’re referencing in your last sentence. And you make a good point overall. I’m glad you know your strengths and what you like. Same here. I’m really good at the SME level work, but i really excel (and natural) at people leadership and strategy. I enjoy that so much more than being down in the weeds. Being a 15 was a just a step along the way. But I hate seeing people who want to be SMEs applying for SES because they want power or a little more change. Completely wrong reasons to do SES.