Narcissistic SIL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

Not the PP, but let me take a stab at this: My SiL generally doesn't like me. Some of it may be due to self esteem even though she attended elite institutions (in case she hadn't told you) and has had a fairly successful career in the arts and literature (not as successful as she would like, but much more so than many of her peers). Some of it may be due to having been the "only" girl for awhile with her dad, husband, and brother (now DH) and didn't like having to share the spotlight (look, that term would have never occurred to me, but a mutual friend of DH and SiL mentioned it after one of her outbursts about me).

I was raised to be a good IL, so I wasn't prepared for someone who didn't understand give and take in family life. It's always about them and their family. Their kids are older, so their "firsts" come first. When it comes around to our kids, well, it's not a "first in the family," so it's not a first and not worthy of any inconvenience.

I also didn't expect to learn that I'm "not an aunt" to her children because I'm not a blood relative. Her kids somehow have overridden her instruction to refer to us as "Uncle X" and "Y" and do use aunt. I had really looked forward to being an aunt but being a present one simply wasn't worth the conflict ("send money for BDs and holidays, but don't really interact with our kids otherwise").

SiL is super nice with DH's and my friends when they are visiting and we have friends over. One friend just doesn't get what I am saying - "she seems so nice." I learned, however, from another friend that this kind of "bait and switch" isn't unusual - she may be nice with them, but that doesn't mean she is nice to me. In fact, she may be extra nice to them in front of me in order to underscore how I'm not worthy of even her passing interest.

SiL and BiL visited recently. In some ways it was a good visit - bonding over their ailing parents, etc. I suggested the visit to DH as I know he wants to keep a relationship with her, preferably a good one. If anything, I've provided insight to him over time on how he should be transparent with her about their parents' finances, health, etc (they turn to him more than her), even if it takes extra time he doesn't always have, etc because it's the best way to handle sibling relations, especially in the later years.

But it wasn't an easy weekend in some ways. Some time after they left, I kinda broke down in front of DH and told him that it's just so hard to have to be around someone who really has no interest and can't even bother to feign it. I explained, for example, that I can pretty much write a narrative of her life, especially from HS on about what his sister has done, names of her friends, what she studied in college/grad school and where, the jobs that she has held, even the names of some. Then I told him that your sister would never be able to tell me my parents' names, what I studied in college, where I've lived, the jobs I've held, where I worked overseas, etc. She has never asked and is not interested in my past or present. FWIW, I've not necessarily asked her all these questions, I've simply listened when she was talking.

DH did acknowledge my feelings. On more than one occasion, he has mentioned that he doesn't always return her calls because after the perfunctory exchange of pleasantries, the conversation devolves into being one about her. I also know in some ways he wishes I would just accept it as he has. Alas, I don't think that's always as easy to do when you are not related.

So yeah, it's a strained relationship, at least for me, but I think that has more to do with her self-involvement, perhaps even narcissism, than just the ebb and flow of "human" relationships.

Maybe she doesn’t like you because you are too long-winded and self-focused. I couldn’t get through even half of your me-me-me rambling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

Not the PP, but let me take a stab at this: My SiL generally doesn't like me. Some of it may be due to self esteem even though she attended elite institutions (in case she hadn't told you) and has had a fairly successful career in the arts and literature (not as successful as she would like, but much more so than many of her peers). Some of it may be due to having been the "only" girl for awhile with her dad, husband, and brother (now DH) and didn't like having to share the spotlight (look, that term would have never occurred to me, but a mutual friend of DH and SiL mentioned it after one of her outbursts about me).

I was raised to be a good IL, so I wasn't prepared for someone who didn't understand give and take in family life. It's always about them and their family. Their kids are older, so their "firsts" come first. When it comes around to our kids, well, it's not a "first in the family," so it's not a first and not worthy of any inconvenience.

I also didn't expect to learn that I'm "not an aunt" to her children because I'm not a blood relative. Her kids somehow have overridden her instruction to refer to us as "Uncle X" and "Y" and do use aunt. I had really looked forward to being an aunt but being a present one simply wasn't worth the conflict ("send money for BDs and holidays, but don't really interact with our kids otherwise").

SiL is super nice with DH's and my friends when they are visiting and we have friends over. One friend just doesn't get what I am saying - "she seems so nice." I learned, however, from another friend that this kind of "bait and switch" isn't unusual - she may be nice with them, but that doesn't mean she is nice to me. In fact, she may be extra nice to them in front of me in order to underscore how I'm not worthy of even her passing interest.

SiL and BiL visited recently. In some ways it was a good visit - bonding over their ailing parents, etc. I suggested the visit to DH as I know he wants to keep a relationship with her, preferably a good one. If anything, I've provided insight to him over time on how he should be transparent with her about their parents' finances, health, etc (they turn to him more than her), even if it takes extra time he doesn't always have, etc because it's the best way to handle sibling relations, especially in the later years.

But it wasn't an easy weekend in some ways. Some time after they left, I kinda broke down in front of DH and told him that it's just so hard to have to be around someone who really has no interest and can't even bother to feign it. I explained, for example, that I can pretty much write a narrative of her life, especially from HS on about what his sister has done, names of her friends, what she studied in college/grad school and where, the jobs that she has held, even the names of some. Then I told him that your sister would never be able to tell me my parents' names, what I studied in college, where I've lived, the jobs I've held, where I worked overseas, etc. She has never asked and is not interested in my past or present. FWIW, I've not necessarily asked her all these questions, I've simply listened when she was talking.

DH did acknowledge my feelings. On more than one occasion, he has mentioned that he doesn't always return her calls because after the perfunctory exchange of pleasantries, the conversation devolves into being one about her. I also know in some ways he wishes I would just accept it as he has. Alas, I don't think that's always as easy to do when you are not related.

So yeah, it's a strained relationship, at least for me, but I think that has more to do with her self-involvement, perhaps even narcissism, than just the ebb and flow of "human" relationships.

Maybe she doesn’t like you because you are too long-winded and self-focused. I couldn’t get through even half of your me-me-me rambling.

Yeah, right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pretty old and, to the best of my knowledge, I don’t know a narcissist. Am I lucky, an outlier or I simply never become entangled with someone who I thought of as off/too intense?

You probably don't.

Lots of posters here fancy themselves armchair psychologists and feel like they have to exaggerate and apply labels to people who are just toxic and selfish (which is terrible enough) to be taken seriously. When I hear someone label people like this without actual knowledge of any diagnosis it makes me suspect they are being dramatic. Would be far more effective to say "my SIL is self centered to the point that she alienates me and ignores my kids to brag about hers."

Save the thread subject line, posters here seem to be grappling more with how they feel about/how to handle this behavior than what to call it. Maybe labeling this conduct as narcissistic is not apt, but selfish and toxic behavior can also be pernicious and wearisome for those on the receiving end, especially when grinding on for decades.

[Anonymous]

Please tell me why you invite these kind of people into your home and they meet your friend group? WHY? It's one thing if you are at a family event and see them. A pleasant hello is fine, but why do you keep trying? I don't want to hear that your DH wants to invite the asIL over. He can handle it and I would find something else to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

+1

A few years all the bad people were BPD. I really hate the armchair diagnosing- definitely one of the plagues of social media. One of the worst things it does is encouraging people to go “no contact” at the drop of a hat. Now, I don’t want to minimize DV, and there are times where that is definitely the safe thing to do.

Most people that we find problematic can be dealt with using boundaries. Set reasonable boundaries, keep them, don’t fight. If someone is super toxic, they’ll cut YOU off in response to boundaries (but that doesn’t happen very often, because we aren’t actually as overrun with “narcs” or whatever else as the internet wants us to believe).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please tell me why you invite these kind of people into your home and they meet your friend group? WHY? It's one thing if you are at a family event and see them. A pleasant hello is fine, but why do you keep trying? I don't want to hear that your DH wants to invite the asIL over. He can handle it and I would find something else to do.

We are talking nearly 30 years. In the beginning, I was focused on being a good IL. There was a dust up and a course correction for awhile with the behavior. Then the next set of years, there were family gatherings and DH and I wanted to support bonding of cousins. When there are religious events and coming of age celebrations, friends are going to meet family. There were some challenges but we worked to limit overlaps.

The last ten years have been somewhat similar but the aging parents’ dynamic has been a bit of a hiccup. My ILs have been wonderful grandparents to our kids and so I’m willing to show up for what could be last times together.

This visit hit hard - we’ve got some stuff going on so I’m sure that was part of it. There won’t be one for awhile unless something happens with the parents. And since we just hosted the parents, DH can say “no” if S/BiL insist they come when the cousins get together this summer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

+1

A few years all the bad people were BPD. I really hate the armchair diagnosing- definitely one of the plagues of social media. One of the worst things it does is encouraging people to go “no contact” at the drop of a hat. Now, I don’t want to minimize DV, and there are times where that is definitely the safe thing to do.

Most people that we find problematic can be dealt with using boundaries. Set reasonable boundaries, keep them, don’t fight. If someone is super toxic, they’ll cut YOU off in response to boundaries (but that doesn’t happen very often, because we aren’t actually as overrun with “narcs” or whatever else as the internet wants us to believe).

How do you set a boundary for someone who is always turning the conversation back to themselves? I’m just used to a conversation going back and forth, not to someone asking a question, then interrupting the answer to continue their monologue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

+1

A few years all the bad people were BPD. I really hate the armchair diagnosing- definitely one of the plagues of social media. One of the worst things it does is encouraging people to go “no contact” at the drop of a hat. Now, I don’t want to minimize DV, and there are times where that is definitely the safe thing to do.

Most people that we find problematic can be dealt with using boundaries. Set reasonable boundaries, keep them, don’t fight. If someone is super toxic, they’ll cut YOU off in response to boundaries (but that doesn’t happen very often, because we aren’t actually as overrun with “narcs” or whatever else as the internet wants us to believe).

How do you set a boundary for someone who is always turning the conversation back to themselves? I’m just used to a conversation going back and forth, not to someone asking a question, then interrupting the answer to continue their monologue.

First, is it really intolerable, or just an annoyance? If the latter, maybe you let it go.

If it’s intolerable you can pick an amount of time you can live with. 5-10-15 minutes? If you can’t have a conversation at that point, just smile and say, “It’s been great hearing about XYZ! I’m off to the [pool, kitchen, talk to Aunt Diana, whatever]. See you later.” And walk away.

I have a cousin who will tell you every moment of his day, like putting his socks on. He will not stop. We have to just get up and walk away. It’s probably a trauma thing (over talking sometimes is) with him. He’s not a bad person, he can be very kind. He *receives* info through email.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am pretty old and, to the best of my knowledge, I don’t know a narcissist. Am I lucky, an outlier or I simply never become entangled with someone who I thought of as off/too intense?

I'm 44, used to think that until I realized I just don't know what it is. I have an ADHD/ASD husband and son, know what those symptoms are and recognize them in others. But narcissism? Not quite sure.

I can only assume that people with diagnosed relatives recognize strangers who they feel present the same way.

[Anonymous]

With two long posters above it seems to be the typical queen bee wannabe who undermines the other female in the family. Not too complicated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

+1

A few years all the bad people were BPD. I really hate the armchair diagnosing- definitely one of the plagues of social media. One of the worst things it does is encouraging people to go “no contact” at the drop of a hat. Now, I don’t want to minimize DV, and there are times where that is definitely the safe thing to do.

Most people that we find problematic can be dealt with using boundaries. Set reasonable boundaries, keep them, don’t fight. If someone is super toxic, they’ll cut YOU off in response to boundaries (but that doesn’t happen very often, because we aren’t actually as overrun with “narcs” or whatever else as the internet wants us to believe).

How do you set a boundary for someone who is always turning the conversation back to themselves? I’m just used to a conversation going back and forth, not to someone asking a question, then interrupting the answer to continue their monologue.

Why do you need to set a boundary with something so minor? There’s nothing abusive or toxic about this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

+1

A few years all the bad people were BPD. I really hate the armchair diagnosing- definitely one of the plagues of social media. One of the worst things it does is encouraging people to go “no contact” at the drop of a hat. Now, I don’t want to minimize DV, and there are times where that is definitely the safe thing to do.

Most people that we find problematic can be dealt with using boundaries. Set reasonable boundaries, keep them, don’t fight. If someone is super toxic, they’ll cut YOU off in response to boundaries (but that doesn’t happen very often, because we aren’t actually as overrun with “narcs” or whatever else as the internet wants us to believe).

How do you set a boundary for someone who is always turning the conversation back to themselves? I’m just used to a conversation going back and forth, not to someone asking a question, then interrupting the answer to continue their monologue.

Why do you need to set a boundary with something so minor? There’s nothing abusive or toxic about this.

It’s one example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what, I’m really tired of people on Instagram and DCUM throwing around “narc” so much. Narcissism is actually a clinical term and laypeople can’t diagnose it.

Isn’t it funny how you liked her at first? The most logical explanation is that over time, relationships with ILs devolve from well-intentioned, best-foot-forward interactions to familiarity to real life with real people and all their flaws and foibles. So liking someone at first and then eventually having problems and a strained relationship does not necessarily indicate “narcissism” so much as it indicates “human relationships.”

+1

A few years all the bad people were BPD. I really hate the armchair diagnosing- definitely one of the plagues of social media. One of the worst things it does is encouraging people to go “no contact” at the drop of a hat. Now, I don’t want to minimize DV, and there are times where that is definitely the safe thing to do.

Most people that we find problematic can be dealt with using boundaries. Set reasonable boundaries, keep them, don’t fight. If someone is super toxic, they’ll cut YOU off in response to boundaries (but that doesn’t happen very often, because we aren’t actually as overrun with “narcs” or whatever else as the internet wants us to believe).

How do you set a boundary for someone who is always turning the conversation back to themselves? I’m just used to a conversation going back and forth, not to someone asking a question, then interrupting the answer to continue their monologue.

First, is it really intolerable, or just an annoyance? If the latter, maybe you let it go.

If it’s intolerable you can pick an amount of time you can live with. 5-10-15 minutes? If you can’t have a conversation at that point, just smile and say, “It’s been great hearing about XYZ! I’m off to the [pool, kitchen, talk to Aunt Diana, whatever]. See you later.” And walk away.

I have a cousin who will tell you every moment of his day, like putting his socks on. He will not stop. We have to just get up and walk away. It’s probably a trauma thing (over talking sometimes is) with him. He’s not a bad person, he can be very kind. He *receives* info through email.

It’s been decades. We’re past annoyance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Could you describe your narcissistic SIL who seems to initially fool people she meets until they catch on, albeit slowly, because she’s so good at hiding it? it even took me a while, and I’m usually good at spotting them fairly quickly.

Not sure if she’s a narcissist but SIL’s “thing” was she was a good mother and daughter because she was the only one of the four (three brothers) who had children/grandchildren for the parents and she stayed at home to care for them. She demanded special treatment which basically meant their mother
paid all their living expenses (husband was a cheating deadbeat but she was too embarrassed to be a divorcee) so she could sit at home on the couch. She turned into a raving lunatic when the mother died and the brothers did not gift her their quarter inheritances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:With two long posters above it seems to be the typical queen bee wannabe who undermines the other female in the family. Not too complicated.

But it does suck.