S/O: schools w/ great merit and are top producers of STEM PhDs

[Anonymous]

Someone in another thread posted this link that shows the top feeder schools for Ph.D. programs in different subjects, adjusted for size of institution: https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs. Looks to be a subject-specific breakout of that NSF list that gets posted from time to time (updated with 2024 data).

Looking at the STEM lists, it's clear that engineering tips to heavily to larger/STEM universities, both public and private.
But the data are different for other STEM subjects, and the abundance of small merit $ schools on these lists has me thinking about ROI for aspiring scientists who might not qualify for need-based aid. A surprising number of schools that turn up repeatedly are lesser-known small schools that give significant merit aid/discounting -- sometimes so much that the cost of attendance is the same as or even below that of state flagships.

Some examples: the top feeder schools for bio, chem, and physics include Kalamazoo (#22, 6, and 36 respectively), Earlham (7, 20, 47), Hendrix (36, 13, 29), oft-maligned Juniata (20, 4, 32), and Allegheny (16, 8, 33). My understanding is that after merit discounts, the cost of attending these schools is typically the same as or below flagship. So if these tiny merit $ schools are as/more affordable than a state school, and they're more likely to send a student to STEM doctoral programs, wouldn't they be potentially the best investment for an aspiring scientist in these subjects who wasn't likely to get need-based aid? This is a genuine question, not an attempt to rehash well-worn arguments about some of these schools. If I'm missing something in my thinking, please tell me what it is.

[Anonymous]

PP. Other merit aid schools that that popped out at me, and which are also generous with merit, though perhaps less than above:

St. Olaf - a top feeder schools for bio, chem, CS, and math (17, 18, 50, 10 respectively), known for extremely generous merit, maybe not quite the same as some of the above?

Whitman - makes the cut for bio, chem, math, and physics (31, 23, 16, 25)
Hampshire (!!! surprised me!!) - bio, CS, math, physics (2, 20, 43, 13)

Grinnell offers terrific merit aid, on top of unusually generous need-based, and is high on the list for bio, chem, CS, math, and physics (10, 10, 35, 11, 11) -- basically all STEM but engineering.

Oberlin - also bio, chem, CS, math, and physics (33, 49, 39, 35, 30) -- maybe less merit than Grinnell? Not sure.

There are other schools that also make the same lists as Grinnell and Oberlin (among them Carleton, Caltech, Amherst, Swat, Williams, and MIT, maybe others); to my knowledge none offer merit aid, although they might give need-based aid to a wider range of families.

There are probably others. I'll admit that my eyes are starting to glaze over at this point.

[Anonymous]

OP, your post is going to cause some heads to explode by parents who just can't fathom this.

[Anonymous]

Unless you want to be a Professor most engineering and CS majors don’t get PHds. They graduate and go to work.

[Anonymous]

My take on it is that graduates from SLACs tend to go towards teaching and research, not industry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, your post is going to cause some heads to explode by parents who just can't fathom this.

? most students (and their parents) don't care about PhDs.

My CS major kid at UMD will probably do their 4+1 there, but they don't want to go beyond a masters.

[Anonymous]

For engineering and CS, maybe it doesn't matter. But to do anything interesting in those other STEM fields, yes, you need a PhD, especially if you're headed into industry jobs.

I agree with your assessment, OP. My kid goes to one of those schools mentioned above. He is majoring in my field and getting a much better undergrad education than I ever did at my DCUM-revered state flagship. Better grad school admittance is just gravy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For engineering and CS, maybe it doesn't matter. But to do anything interesting in those other STEM fields, yes, you need a PhD, especially if you're headed into industry jobs.

I agree with your assessment, OP. My kid goes to one of those schools mentioned above. He is majoring in my field and getting a much better undergrad education than I ever did at my DCUM-revered state flagship. Better grad school admittance is just gravy.

yes, that's why the SLACs are up there. They don't have strong Eng/CS programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Unless you want to be a Professor most engineering and CS majors don’t get PHds. They graduate and go to work.

This is mostly true, although I am the exception - a PhD working for a well-known commercial sector firm.

Master's degrees in CS/Engineering are, however, very very common in the commercial sector.

[Anonymous]

OP, I for one am grateful to you for pointing this out. We are a budget conscious family with a child interested in environmental science with an eye towards getting a PhD. I do think she'll be eligible for merit aid at some of these smaller schools based on strong grades and test scores, but we've been unsure about the strength of these programs in terms of preparing her for a PhD (and also offering the kind of support students need to get into PhD programs, like internships with professors and strong recommendations).

You've given us some good food for thought, though environmental science is not technically one of the listed STEM subjects. But we should be able to find a way to obtain that data and might be able do a similar comparison. Right now her her top choices are Cornell, UC-Santa Cruz, and UMD. But Cornell is a crapshoot even with top numbers, and UC-Santa Cruz is tough out of state. This sounds like a really good approach for finding target and safety options so that she doesn't get penned in with limited options.

I went to a state flagship and have some bias towards them for STEM because I think the research opportunities tend to be really good. So for me, finding out what kinds of research opportunities are available at these much smaller schools is important. Even as an undergrad, real research experience is invaluable as it helps you narrow your are of study to start honing in on what you'll focus on in your graduate program. It's also the best way to develop strong relationships with professors. But I have an open mind. When I went to a state flagship, it cost me 6k/yr as an in-state student with a merit scholarship based on GPA. It's a different world now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I for one am grateful to you for pointing this out. We are a budget conscious family with a child interested in environmental science with an eye towards getting a PhD. I do think she'll be eligible for merit aid at some of these smaller schools based on strong grades and test scores, but we've been unsure about the strength of these programs in terms of preparing her for a PhD (and also offering the kind of support students need to get into PhD programs, like internships with professors and strong recommendations).

You've given us some good food for thought, though environmental science is not technically one of the listed STEM subjects. But we should be able to find a way to obtain that data and might be able do a similar comparison. Right now her her top choices are Cornell, UC-Santa Cruz, and UMD. But Cornell is a crapshoot even with top numbers, and UC-Santa Cruz is tough out of state. This sounds like a really good approach for finding target and safety options so that she doesn't get penned in with limited options.

I went to a state flagship and have some bias towards them for STEM because I think the research opportunities tend to be really good. So for me, finding out what kinds of research opportunities are available at these much smaller schools is important. Even as an undergrad, real research experience is invaluable as it helps you narrow your are of study to start honing in on what you'll focus on in your graduate program. It's also the best way to develop strong relationships with professors. But I have an open mind. When I went to a state flagship, it cost me 6k/yr as an in-state student with a merit scholarship based on GPA. It's a different world now.

She should look at Lewis & Clark. Very strong environmental program, and the law school has one of the best environmental law programs in the country, so there is a good industry connection with the school in general.

[Anonymous]

I’d be more interested in which schools are feeders for top MBA, Law and medical schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I for one am grateful to you for pointing this out. We are a budget conscious family with a child interested in environmental science with an eye towards getting a PhD. I do think she'll be eligible for merit aid at some of these smaller schools based on strong grades and test scores, but we've been unsure about the strength of these programs in terms of preparing her for a PhD (and also offering the kind of support students need to get into PhD programs, like internships with professors and strong recommendations).

You've given us some good food for thought, though environmental science is not technically one of the listed STEM subjects. But we should be able to find a way to obtain that data and might be able do a similar comparison. Right now her her top choices are Cornell, UC-Santa Cruz, and UMD. But Cornell is a crapshoot even with top numbers, and UC-Santa Cruz is tough out of state. This sounds like a really good approach for finding target and safety options so that she doesn't get penned in with limited options.

I went to a state flagship and have some bias towards them for STEM because I think the research opportunities tend to be really good. So for me, finding out what kinds of research opportunities are available at these much smaller schools is important. Even as an undergrad, real research experience is invaluable as it helps you narrow your are of study to start honing in on what you'll focus on in your graduate program. It's also the best way to develop strong relationships with professors. But I have an open mind. When I went to a state flagship, it cost me 6k/yr as an in-state student with a merit scholarship based on GPA. It's a different world now.

She should look at Lewis & Clark. Very strong environmental program, and the law school has one of the best environmental law programs in the country, so there is a good industry connection with the school in general.

Might be worth a visit to Northfield, MN — Carleton (no merit, but maybe better need-based aid than the average school) and St. Olaf (terrific merit) appear repeatedly on these lists. Walking through the science building, I was very impressed at the extent of St. Olaf’s undergraduate environmental research.

Whitman also has a strong environmental bent. We looked at their course catalog and liked what we saw, though we didn’t look at undergrad research specifically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For engineering and CS, maybe it doesn't matter. But to do anything interesting in those other STEM fields, yes, you need a PhD, especially if you're headed into industry jobs.

I agree with your assessment, OP. My kid goes to one of those schools mentioned above. He is majoring in my field and getting a much better undergrad education than I ever did at my DCUM-revered state flagship. Better grad school admittance is just gravy.

yes, that's why the SLACs are up there. They don't have strong Eng/CS programs.

True for engineering, though I was surprised to see that 18/50 schools on the CS list are LACs — a stronger showing than I’d have expected for that subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless you want to be a Professor most engineering and CS majors don’t get PHds. They graduate and go to work.

This is mostly true, although I am the exception - a PhD working for a well-known commercial sector firm.

Master's degrees in CS/Engineering are, however, very very common in the commercial sector.

The CS PhDs are in high demand these days. Theoretical CS is needed for AI research. CS PhD programs are very hard to get into