Major addition and renovation - design build v. separate architect and contractor

[Anonymous]

We are in the very early stages of planning a major renovation -- specifically, adding a second floor to a single level home, and a gut renovation of the kitchen and portion of the existing living space.

I would love people's thoughts on using a design build firm versus hiring an architect and then separately hiring a contractor. And if you have any specific recommendations, that would be wonderful. We are in Vienna.

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Use design build if you want to pay 30-40% extra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Use design build if you want to pay 30-40% extra.

Can you elaborate?

[Anonymous]

We've been going round and round on this and haven't finalized our decision, but here's what I've learned in trying to plan for a whole house renovation and expansion.

Architects are great at architecture and are not great at pricing. We invested about $7500 into plans that were not feasible for our budget. (At every single meeting, I reminded the architect of our budget and he confirmed that he was drawing with that in mind. This is someone who had lots of neighborhood recommendations and I had no reason to doubt him.

But once we had the plans drawn, we put them out for bid and they all came back high. The lowest one was 30% over budget. The architect didn't have a good explanation nor did he have good suggestions for where we could cut. I suppose we could have pushed more, or made our own suggestions, but we felt like the trust was damaged at that point.

So, we've been talking to design build firms. We understand that we'll have to make some trade-offs, but it's really critical to have a firm that can price accurately and everyone is aligned on the goal going in.

[Anonymous]

Carolyn Ubben is based out of Vienna and she is awesome. She has worked with many Vienna families (including ours) and I highly recommend her. If you decide to go the architect/contractor route, she's your person.

https://ubbenarchitect.squarespace.com/

[Anonymous]

BTW, OP (I'm the PP), what is your budget? Pop tops were $500k+ in 2020 and probably 20%-30% more now.

[Anonymous]

Do whichever makes you happy.

We will never use design-build.

Having a separate architect on our renovation/addition saved us several different times when the builder tried to cut corners in places that really mattered. It also meant that when builder wanted to use slightly different windows (to reduce cost) than were in the original plans, the architect made sure we still met code with the alternate windows.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do whichever makes you happy.

We will never use design-build.

Having a separate architect on our renovation/addition saved us several different times when the builder tried to cut corners in places that really mattered. It also meant that when builder wanted to use slightly different windows (to reduce cost) than were in the original plans, the architect made sure we still met code with the alternate windows.

Curious how the architect saved you the several times, if you care to share?

[Anonymous]

We used a design/build firm (Don Gibbons, with some solid plans already envisioned). It worked out really well for us. Happy to elaborate if anyone is interested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Ubben is based out of Vienna and she is awesome. She has worked with many Vienna families (including ours) and I highly recommend her. If you decide to go the architect/contractor route, she's your person.

https://ubbenarchitect.squarespace.com/

+1, I am also a happy client.

[Anonymous]

I am a residential general contractor.

I have posted on this topic on DCUM before.

Approximately 60% of my work is design-bid-build. The other 40% is design build.

Architects do alot of things really well. Truly thinking through the required effort, tasks, and expense of construction is not one of them. Nor should it be.

Everything in construction has a cost ramification and during design you need someone on the project at that time highlighting the cost ramifications of design decisions.

Having to bid projects that have lacked this input often results in very poor experiences for the client.

I spent one afternoon this week looking at a job that I have been asked to bid because they are trying to find a builder that can make their numbers work. Beautiful house - beautiful plans - but it’s likely going to be an exercise in futility until they either cut scope, redo the drawings, or acquiesce from fatigue. If I had to quess they are likely into the drawings on what will likely be a 1M renovation for about 80k at this point.

So when I have clients come to me first - instead of an Architect - I tell them I can give them the name of Architects that I think are a good fit or we can go with one of them that will work with me in a design build fashion. The difference is I guarantee to hit their budget plus-minus 10 percent. More often than not they agree to the design build method.

I advocate design-build because I am tired of rebidding projects. I am tired of trying to reconcile drawings with cost carve outs. And tired of dealing with clients that believe items that were cut from scope are in scope.

So yes most of the good work out there is drawn by talented, accomplished Architects.

But I know an awful lot of folks that have had horrible experiences paying for drawings they could not afford to build (or chose not to based on budget).

And to the PP that said you will pay 30-40 percent more for design build I think that’s likely an Architect spreading FUD - fear uncertainty and doubt.

Residential construction is very competitive. You cannot be that above the market for too long without deliverying superior results.

So if you read this far - hire an Architect. Interview builders. Find one you like -pay them for preconstruction services and to participate in the design. The Architect might balk but you’ll be better served.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do whichever makes you happy.

We will never use design-build.

Having a separate architect on our renovation/addition saved us several different times when the builder tried to cut corners in places that really mattered. It also meant that when builder wanted to use slightly different windows (to reduce cost) than were in the original plans, the architect made sure we still met code with the alternate windows.

Curious how the architect saved you the several times, if you care to share?

Broadly speaking - builder not complying with the blueprints in ways that would not be obvious to anyone not in the trade and that would have been concealed when the house was finished and that would have caused issues for us after move-in.

[Anonymous]

We needed advice on what was worth doing, what was worth splurging on, etc. throughout the design process. I needed an architect I trusted for tradeoff advice and for supervising contract implementation. The financial incentives of design build don't work for that. It seems like a good fit if you are not very particular about the design and just want someone to make decisions for you and are willing to pay a significant premium for that service.

Construction costs have increased significantly and depend on the exact neighborhood of the house, so I would expect that some architects are way off in terms of budget. But the mark up on D/B would generally override those estimates anyway. If you're looking to spend as little money as possible, neither is a good option - you're probably looking more for a contractor who has an architect that can draw up very simple plans, and hope that the design doesn't have major errors.

[Anonymous]

Having an architect is important to give you an independent voice on your side during construction to make sure things are done right (vs a design-build firm where it is all one company and it's just all a matter of trust that the builder is treating you right.)

Design-build helps you get more accurate pricing from the start (although there is a risk that you're paying more than you would if you bid the project, you decrease the risk that the project comes in above your budget.)

If both of those things are important to you, I'd suggest doing what the builder above suggests-- rather than hiring a design-build firm, find an independent architect who'll do a design-build process with your chosen builder involved in the design process.