Top 10 Universities - Holistic Admissions Fact or Fiction

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignore this troll. She has been on DCUm for years talking about how her "unhooked" daug got into Columbia from Montgomery County PUBLIC schools. She used to troll the private independent school forum, now she trolls the college forum. she also brags that she went to an Ivy and her husband went to a "public Ivy." Very tedious.

Wow, you have issues! You've got me confused with about 10 other posters. Since DD is a frosh, I don't see how I could have been bragging about this "for years." You're also wrong about several other of those supposed points in my and DD's backgrounds.

For the rest of you: this sad bigot has been trying to "prove" that the only URMs can get into top colleges with SATs of 2100, because only affirmative action can explain such "low" SAT scores winning admissions to top colleges. She has a bee in her bonnet about affirmative action letting under-qualified minorities into top schools, to the detriment of more deserving whites (I know, ugh). I was merely pointing out that my own unhooked, white DD got into a very top school with SATs of *gasp* 2100. Because this awful bigot simply cannot comprehend that such a thing might be true--because it doesn't fit her bigoted worldview--she has spent the last 3 pages obsessively trying out various arguments as to why my DD's experience is simply impossible. Now that all her other arguments have failed, she's going to call me a troll.

Uncreative, and wrong. And this bigoted idiot certainly won't be on my family's mind when our 2100 SAT DD collects her diploma from her top 5 school.

Looks like you moved on to "bigot" as your preferred term from "troll" after you were accused of being a troll yourself. Why don't you name the supposed top 5 school and describe in general terms what the national recognition was and the readers can see if your posts are reasonable. Just insisting 2100 with no hooks can get you accepted to top 5 school seems unreasonable without more explanation.

No way am I outing DD, her school and her achievements to satisfy a bigot, yes bigot, like you. If you are incapable of believing that anybody besides minorities can get into a top college with SATs of 2100, then that's your problem and your loss. It's certainly not my problem.

At this point, I'm addressing other, more open-minded readers, I'm not addressing you. I figure I've done enough to refute your claims that all the 2100s at top colleges are URMs, and I hope anybody else reading appreciates the point and also the need for a little privacy. Over and out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ignore this troll. She has been on DCUm for years talking about how her "unhooked" daug got into Columbia from Montgomery County PUBLIC schools. She used to troll the private independent school forum, now she trolls the college forum. she also brags that she went to an Ivy and her husband went to a "public Ivy." Very tedious.

Wow, you have issues! You've got me confused with about 10 other posters. Since DD is a frosh, I don't see how I could have been bragging about this "for years." You're also wrong about several other of those supposed points in my and DD's backgrounds.

For the rest of you: this sad bigot has been trying to "prove" that the only URMs can get into top colleges with SATs of 2100, because only affirmative action can explain such "low" SAT scores winning admissions to top colleges. She has a bee in her bonnet about affirmative action letting under-qualified minorities into top schools, to the detriment of more deserving whites (I know, ugh). I was merely pointing out that my own unhooked, white DD got into a very top school with SATs of *gasp* 2100. Because this awful bigot simply cannot comprehend that such a thing might be true--because it doesn't fit her bigoted worldview--she has spent the last 3 pages obsessively trying out various arguments as to why my DD's experience is simply impossible. Now that all her other arguments have failed, she's going to call me a troll.

Uncreative, and wrong. And this bigoted idiot certainly won't be on my family's mind when our 2100 SAT DD collects her diploma from her top 5 school.

Looks like you moved on to "bigot" as your preferred term from "troll" after you were accused of being a troll yourself. Why don't you name the supposed top 5 school and describe in general terms what the national recognition was and the readers can see if your posts are reasonable. Just insisting 2100 with no hooks can get you accepted to top 5 school seems unreasonable without more explanation.

The troll is trying to resolve some sort of insecurity on this forum. She was on the private school board last year boasting about "totally unhooked" MCPS students getting into "top 5" Ivies (identified as Columbia at one point) with a 2100 SAT and a 3.9 GPA. Here's an example from over a year ago:

"my totally unhooked, suburban kid got into an ivy based on state and national achievements in one of the arts. So I agree with you to the extent you say that top schools are looking for passion instead of well-rounded kids."

She's got a thing against DC private schools and is trying to prove a point based on a sample size of one. By posting variants of the same message over and over she wants to obscure what the national statistics clearly show.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know of an actual example of a kid that got into one of these schools without near perfect SAT or GPA, besides sports stars? Please provide specific examples, if so. I am so tired of sitting through tours and hearing this and then seeing their GPA/ SAT ranges.

It's clear that "Columbia mom" started this thread "demanding" an actual example of a kid that got into one of these schools without near perfect SAT or GPA, besides sports stars so she could continue to regale us with the dramatic tale of her daughter the "nationally awarded" artist from the MCPS made it into Columbia with a 3.9 and 2100 SAT. Sure enough, a half hour after the thread is started Columbia mom appears to tell her tale while insisting she doesn't want to provide the specifics she has provided on other threads for over a year.

Would it help stop her if someone gave her a "world's best mom" mug?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holistic is an excuse for arbitrary and subjective masking of hidden intentions and initiatives

By claiming to use a Holistic approach, a school insulates itself from any objective evaluation of admission policies.

There are three main hooks that will get you in with less than perfect credentials: Athlete; Underrepresented Minority; Legacy. For specific example, look at the scatter grams on Naviance or similar system and you'll see plenty of less than perfect credentials that resulted in admission.

Sigh. No, these hooks are not the only reasons you will see admits on Naviance who have less than perfect scores.

DC recently got into a USNWR top 5 school without any of these hooks, and SATs of only 2100 (but GPA of 3.9 unweighted and lots of AP scores of 5). DC got in due to stellar accomplishments in a certain field, which I'm not going to describe here to protect DC's privacy. Also killed the essays. In other words, it's tough for all kids, but if you hit all the notes, and you're also really, really good at something (state or national competition or award), you don't necessarily need one of the hooks mentioned above.

Columbia mom's "reluctant" response minutes after starting this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know of an actual example of a kid that got into one of these schools without near perfect SAT or GPA, besides sports stars? Please provide specific examples, if so. I am so tired of sitting through tours and hearing this and then seeing their GPA/ SAT ranges.

It's clear that "Columbia mom" started this thread "demanding" an actual example of a kid that got into one of these schools without near perfect SAT or GPA, besides sports stars so she could continue to regale us with the dramatic tale of her daughter the "nationally awarded" artist from the MCPS made it into Columbia with a 3.9 and 2100 SAT. Sure enough, a half hour after the thread is started Columbia mom appears to tell her tale while insisting she doesn't want to provide the specifics she has provided on other threads for over a year.

Would it help stop her if someone gave her a "world's best mom" mug?

Sigh. I'm the mom of the kid with 2100 SATs. I did NOT start this thread, and the moderator can verify. I brought up my kid to respond to the bigot (you?) who claimed that the only 2100 kids at Top 10s are undeserving URMs who got in through affirmative action. Anybody here can read your bigoted rants about "2100 will NOT get into a top 10 without affirmative action." The fact that you were able to drag up 3-4 of my posts over the past year, and they all proved to be consistent with each other, actually shows that I did not make things up ... and that you're dead wrong about affirmative section bring responsible for all the 2100s.

And now I'm going to report you to the moderator. Your obsessive stalking at 5:00am has now gummed up three threads, which he probably doesn't want for his site. Not to mention, creepy....

[Anonymous]

Get a grip. I'm the 5AM (your time) "obsessive stalker" who called you out for trolling the private school threads. I'm not the one who figured out that you started THIS thread so you could continue to brag about your DD. I'm not sure if you are really dumb enough to think that everyone who disagrees with you is a bigot or if that is just your latest hook to let everyone know that your DD got into a top school with a 2100 SAT. In either case, you should stop now because you've put enough out there to allow some who really cared to identify your DD. I don't. Trust me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Get a grip. I'm the 5AM (your time) "obsessive stalker" who called you out for trolling the private school threads. I'm not the one who figured out that you started THIS thread so you could continue to brag about your DD. I'm not sure if you are really dumb enough to think that everyone who disagrees with you is a bigot or if that is just your latest hook to let everyone know that your DD got into a top school with a 2100 SAT. In either case, you should stop now because you've put enough out there to allow some who really cared to identify your DD. I don't. Trust me.

I didn't start this thread, the moderator can verify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get a grip. I'm the 5AM (your time) "obsessive stalker" who called you out for trolling the private school threads. I'm not the one who figured out that you started THIS thread so you could continue to brag about your DD. I'm not sure if you are really dumb enough to think that everyone who disagrees with you is a bigot or if that is just your latest hook to let everyone know that your DD got into a top school with a 2100 SAT. In either case, you should stop now because you've put enough out there to allow some who really cared to identify your DD. I don't. Trust me.

I didn't start this thread, the moderator can verify.

PS. You get a grip. You're so paranoid that you've reached the point of assuming I'm everywhere, you even imagine that I'm starting threads because I want to promote myself. Why are you incapable of accepting the truth, which is that I responded to this thread to provided a counter-example to the rampant bigotry here. (Yes, I will keep repeating the main point here, your bigotry, in all my posts.)

I seriously doubt someone could identify DD, because I've consistently refused to identify the HS or the EC.

The College Forum used to be pretty good. Too bad that mentally ill and jealous jerks like you have invaded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But everyone does. I taught labs and graded tests at a very selective university during graduate school. I was a very strong supporter of affirmative action before that experience. The bottom 5-6 students in the classes I graded were always African-american students, and often their grades were WAY below the grades of other students in the class. These kids simply didn't belong at the school, and their performance was radically worse than other students. Of course, they still got Cs and the (very) occasional D. Nobody really flunks out of prestigious universities, and the majority of these kids were passed through and got a degree which I honestly question if they actually deserved. Once you experience this disparity it's hard to look at affirmative action as a positive thing.

There's a big difference between the 400-point SAT gap in the Texas study somebody posted above, and the 100- or 150-point gap that PPs have pointed out for Harvard. A 400-point gap probably speaks to a meaningful difference in abilities. The Harvard difference between 2100 and 2250 is not going to affect academic performance quite so drastically. Also, 2100 is probably high enough to ensure competency at pretty much any college in the country.

PS. Should add that the thread is about "Top 10 Universities." So we're *not* talking about students with SATs of 1500 and who are 400 points below the university average SATs. Instead, at the Top 10, we're talking about maybe a 100-150 point gap and SAT scores that are highly respectable 2100s. The latter kids are perfectly capable of doing the work at any university in the country.

I think you're giving way more credit to the self reported scores from an email survey from Harvard then it deserves. Most studies show about a 300 point boost on a 1600 point scale when all other things are equal.

The journal of blacks in higher education did an analysis of SAT scores (Google jbhe.com sat scores) which detailed that about 1200 AA students get over 1400 on the SAT and ~250 get over 1500 each year. To have a SAT score average of 1400 for AA students at Harvard they would need to get a large percentage of these students, which is obviously not happening. Or if it is happening, what does this mean for the other 10-15 schools with similar SAT ranges?

"Most" studies look at a broad range of universities, not just at Harvard. The data from Harvard that was linked to earlier shows a much smaller range.

Also, source? I actually went to that Journal and couldn't find such an article. I did find a number or articles arguing that SES and educational disparities, not race per se, are responsible for the SAT score gap.

I was under the impression that this thread, per the header, is a discussion of holistic admissions at the top 10. Not a discussion of affirmative action at every school across the country, on average. If you want to talk about affirmative action, which is different from holistic admissions, why don't you start your own thread. Then we can contain the racism there.

I'm almost afraid to post since this thread has spiraled out of control., but this was the article I was referencing: http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

Again, the numbers posted earlier are from a self reported e-mail survey and based on how AA students perform on the SAT I would be shocked if they were accurate. From the article posted:

"Let's be more specific about the SAT racial gap among high-scoring applicants. In 2005, 153,132 African Americans took the SAT test. They made up 10.4 percent of all SAT test takers. But only 1,132 African-American college-bound students scored 700 or above on the math SAT and only 1,205 scored at least 700 on the verbal SAT. Nationally, more than 100,000 students of all races scored 700 or above on the math SAT and 78,025 students scored 700 or above on the verbal SAT."

and

"If we raise the top-scoring threshold to students scoring 750 or above on both the math and verbal SAT — a level equal to the mean score of students entering the nation's most selective colleges such as Harvard, Princeton, and CalTech — we find that in the entire country 244 blacks scored 750 or above on the math SAT and 363 black students scored 750 or above on the verbal portion of the test."

Honestly though, my opinion is that private schools have the leeway to do what they want in admissions; they're private. I do wish they would concentrate more on helping out kids who come from families that have historically been discriminated against though. Stats show that a large number of the black students entering Harvard are affluent, and many of them are first generation kids from the west indies or Africa; not really the group AA was supposed to help out.

I also think that all public schools should be completely merit based; considerations like race, athletic ability, legacy status should not be allowed. Extraordinary accomplishments in fields related to academics or their intended major would obviously count as merit; I don't think everything should be based on scores/GPA.

[Anonymous]

Trolling is very different from posting the identical facts 3-4 times over the course of a year. Please.

You must have a problem with the facts themselves, for example you're jealous.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Get a grip. I'm the 5AM (your time) "obsessive stalker" who called you out for trolling the private school threads. I'm not the one who figured out that you started THIS thread so you could continue to brag about your DD. I'm not sure if you are really dumb enough to think that everyone who disagrees with you is a bigot or if that is just your latest hook to let everyone know that your DD got into a top school with a 2100 SAT. In either case, you should stop now because you've put enough out there to allow some who really cared to identify your DD. I don't. Trust me.

It does appear that you have dredged up an earlier post of hers and posted multiple times calling her a troll. That does seem a bit obsessive. Clearly, something about the poster bothers you. Please just ignore her rather than disrupting threads with your witch hunt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But everyone does. I taught labs and graded tests at a very selective university during graduate school. I was a very strong supporter of affirmative action before that experience. The bottom 5-6 students in the classes I graded were always African-american students, and often their grades were WAY below the grades of other students in the class. These kids simply didn't belong at the school, and their performance was radically worse than other students. Of course, they still got Cs and the (very) occasional D. Nobody really flunks out of prestigious universities, and the majority of these kids were passed through and got a degree which I honestly question if they actually deserved. Once you experience this disparity it's hard to look at affirmative action as a positive thing.

There's a big difference between the 400-point SAT gap in the Texas study somebody posted above, and the 100- or 150-point gap that PPs have pointed out for Harvard. A 400-point gap probably speaks to a meaningful difference in abilities. The Harvard difference between 2100 and 2250 is not going to affect academic performance quite so drastically. Also, 2100 is probably high enough to ensure competency at pretty much any college in the country.

PS. Should add that the thread is about "Top 10 Universities." So we're *not* talking about students with SATs of 1500 and who are 400 points below the university average SATs. Instead, at the Top 10, we're talking about maybe a 100-150 point gap and SAT scores that are highly respectable 2100s. The latter kids are perfectly capable of doing the work at any university in the country.

I think you're giving way more credit to the self reported scores from an email survey from Harvard then it deserves. Most studies show about a 300 point boost on a 1600 point scale when all other things are equal.

The journal of blacks in higher education did an analysis of SAT scores (Google jbhe.com sat scores) which detailed that about 1200 AA students get over 1400 on the SAT and ~250 get over 1500 each year. To have a SAT score average of 1400 for AA students at Harvard they would need to get a large percentage of these students, which is obviously not happening. Or if it is happening, what does this mean for the other 10-15 schools with similar SAT ranges?

"Most" studies look at a broad range of universities, not just at Harvard. The data from Harvard that was linked to earlier shows a much smaller range.

Also, source? I actually went to that Journal and couldn't find such an article. I did find a number or articles arguing that SES and educational disparities, not race per se, are responsible for the SAT score gap.

I was under the impression that this thread, per the header, is a discussion of holistic admissions at the top 10. Not a discussion of affirmative action at every school across the country, on average. If you want to talk about affirmative action, which is different from holistic admissions, why don't you start your own thread. Then we can contain the racism there.

I'm almost afraid to post since this thread has spiraled out of control., but this was the article I was referencing: http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

Again, the numbers posted earlier are from a self reported e-mail survey and based on how AA students perform on the SAT I would be shocked if they were accurate. From the article posted:

"Let's be more specific about the SAT racial gap among high-scoring applicants. In 2005, 153,132 African Americans took the SAT test. They made up 10.4 percent of all SAT test takers. But only 1,132 African-American college-bound students scored 700 or above on the math SAT and only 1,205 scored at least 700 on the verbal SAT. Nationally, more than 100,000 students of all races scored 700 or above on the math SAT and 78,025 students scored 700 or above on the verbal SAT."

and

"If we raise the top-scoring threshold to students scoring 750 or above on both the math and verbal SAT — a level equal to the mean score of students entering the nation's most selective colleges such as Harvard, Princeton, and CalTech — we find that in the entire country 244 blacks scored 750 or above on the math SAT and 363 black students scored 750 or above on the verbal portion of the test."

Honestly though, my opinion is that private schools have the leeway to do what they want in admissions; they're private. I do wish they would concentrate more on helping out kids who come from families that have historically been discriminated against though. Stats show that a large number of the black students entering Harvard are affluent, and many of them are first generation kids from the west indies or Africa; not really the group AA was supposed to help out.

I also think that all public schools should be completely merit based; considerations like race, athletic ability, legacy status should not be allowed. Extraordinary accomplishments in fields related to academics or their intended major would obviously count as merit; I don't think everything should be based on scores/GPA.

I'm responding to myself; sorry. I went back and looked at the Harvard freshman class size; 1600 kids of which ~160 are AA. With that number of kids, I retract my statement that a 2100 score for the entering AA students is impossible. A school like Harvard probably could assemble a class with those stats, and I agree, someone with a 2100 has the capability to be successful at any school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:2100 is not good enough for top 10 universities. There were plenty of kids from my child's HS with 2300 or better SAT scores, in the top 15% of class with tons of ECs and national recognitions and awards being rejected by top 10 universities unless the applicant happens to be URM.

Absolutely wrong. My own DC got into a Top 5 with a score of exactly 2100. Granted, this score was in the 25% percentile for this Top 5 university, but still well within the range.

Maybe there were other factors such as legacy, athlete or other hook or being in the top 1% of the class etc. Applicant with 2100 SAT score with no hooks, not URM and so so GPA/ranking will NOT be admitted to the top 5 university unless the kid is URM.

Nope. DC is a white girl from the DMV suburbs - two anti-hooks, if anything. DC is not a legacy or an athletic recruit, either. DC does happen to excel, at the national level, in a particular passion. Building a class with kids with many talents is the very definition of "holistic admissions," my friend.

WTF is wrong with you? You have already been told similar facts many times.

For 1 white kid with 2100 score being admitted to the top 5 university without any hooks, there are 1,000 white kids with 2100 score without any hooks but with national recognition being rejected. Thank your lucky star your kid got accepted instead of being nasty.

But still, this proves you wrong when you claim that unhooked applicants with 2100 will NOT (your own caps) get into top 10 colleges, no?

Excelling at a national level in an extraordinary way (holding patents, being published in a prestigious academic journal, having a meaningful book published, Intel, Siemens finalists, IMO member etc. which serves as a hook) can obviously help overcome 2,100 SAT score with not so spectacular GPA but not many kids have these achievements. Whereas URM will not need these kinds of recognitions to overcome 2,100 score.

PP with achieving son URM here. He fits into one of the above categories plus has musical abilities recognized in an international competition, yet many folks keep harping that he got in because he is an URM. I posted on this site not to brag ( don't deny I do that a lot) but because I thought the topic was holistic admissions. My point being that the admissions committee looks at the whole person, and not just one thing -- SAT score. In doing so, I have uncovered a lot of folks who seem to believe they know for sure why he was admitted. One even asked if I felt guilty because he was admitted because of his skin color. My first post in response was written in anger. Now I think it is good that people are posting their own points-of-view. In gives us a window into where we are as a society. We still have work to do.