s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And let me just add that while you are sitting on your ass crying crocodile tears about the abortion of Special Needs kids, some idiot has gone on for 14 pages in Schools General Discussion about why her children have to go to school with Special Needs kids. This is the real problem for Special Needs kids -- not abortion -- REAL LIFE -- so why not join reality, toots, and dry those crocodile tears. Phantom special needs babies don't need your help. Real special needs kids do.

Okay, (I'm not PP) but I will say one thing about this. First of all, the unborn aren't "phantoms." I am pro-choice, but unborn babies are real, not phantoms. But second, and I agree with your larger point in many ways, when mothers who discover their babies have Down syndrome and abort there are fewer kids with Down syndrome. This does impact children born with Down syndrome. The fewer kids with Down syndrome there are, the fewer supports are available to them, the less research into their development is done, and the more the children with Ds who are here are treated as oddities.

If people don't respect the lives of children with Ds enough to give birth to them, will they really care as much about their lives once they're born? The issue is complicated. Terminating a pregnancy because a baby has a condition incompatible with life is different than terminating a pregnancy because a child may have an intellectual disability. People who don't have Ds make judgements about how worthwhile a person with Ds's life will be based on their assumptions. What a life as a person with Ds (for instance) has may really be very different than those assumptions. Not to mention that one could abort a baby who has Ds because they are afraid they may have health issues, or create a burden for those siblings left after parents die, and then give birth to a child with an even more debilitating disability that can't be detected prenatally.

I am pro-choice and believe women should be able to make choices for themselves. I don't have the right to make these choices for other families. But this issue is a difficult one, and sometimes I think people do make the wrong choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know what I don't get? Why people feel the need to argue about this. It's a personal choice.

Everything in life is a personal choice but that doesn't mean you agree with everyone's choices.

Why do you have to agree/approve of someone else's choice?

If you think that everyone goes thru life viewing others' actions in a completely neutral manner, maybe you live in Utopia. Where I live, seems there are lots of folks always judging other folks for what they do: how they parent, what they feed their kids, how they dress their children, etc. We do not live in a zero sum, opinion-neutral world. It is fooling yourself if you think that everything is relative.

[Anonymous]

I don't mind people giving birth to babies that will live short agonizing lives because they think their imaginary god wants them to.

But when they start trying to dictate what I can do with my body because of the misogynist dictates of some virgin ex-Nazi in a dress, they can quite frankly go screw themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't mind people giving birth to babies that will live short agonizing lives because they think their imaginary god wants them to.

But when they start trying to dictate what I can do with my body because of the misogynist dictates of some virgin ex-Nazi in a dress, they can quite frankly go screw themselves.

You can do whatever you want with your body as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Like, your liberty to swing your first ends just where my nose begins. So, your liberty to do whatever you want to your own body ends when it'll harm someone else, like your unborn child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey! Its a martyr! Thanks for showing up to the party.

I was wondering where they were, the martyrs are very late today.

Not as late as the haters, apparently.

Oh, we've been here all along. Maybe you weren't paying attention.

Don't hate. Try to love. Be open-minded. Embrace whatever may come. You'll be happier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And let me just add that while you are sitting on your ass crying crocodile tears about the abortion of Special Needs kids, some idiot has gone on for 14 pages in Schools General Discussion about why her children have to go to school with Special Needs kids. This is the real problem for Special Needs kids -- not abortion -- REAL LIFE -- so why not join reality, toots, and dry those crocodile tears. Phantom special needs babies don't need your help. Real special needs kids do.

Wow, PP. That's really troubling and you are absolutely correct!

That's right!!!!

What's troubling is that it is all the same mindset: if people are so darn scared out of their minds to have a child who is less than perfect, that they're rather kill it, then they are contributing to a society where people only see typically developing people or childrnen around them, and other folks are even afraid of having their children in a classroom with them. Thanks for contributing to this society. Thanks. It's all part and parcel of the same phenomenon.

That's bullsh*t. I work with people with disabilities every day and I terminated for profound disabilities. What is your contribution you sanctimonious harpy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And let me just add that while you are sitting on your ass crying crocodile tears about the abortion of Special Needs kids, some idiot has gone on for 14 pages in Schools General Discussion about why her children have to go to school with Special Needs kids. This is the real problem for Special Needs kids -- not abortion -- REAL LIFE -- so why not join reality, toots, and dry those crocodile tears. Phantom special needs babies don't need your help. Real special needs kids do.

Okay, (I'm not PP) but I will say one thing about this. First of all, the unborn aren't "phantoms." I am pro-choice, but unborn babies are real, not phantoms. But second, and I agree with your larger point in many ways, when mothers who discover their babies have Down syndrome and abort there are fewer kids with Down syndrome. This does impact children born with Down syndrome. The fewer kids with Down syndrome there are, the fewer supports are available to them, the less research into their development is done, and the more the children with Ds who are here are treated as oddities.

If people don't respect the lives of children with Ds enough to give birth to them, will they really care as much about their lives once they're born? The issue is complicated. Terminating a pregnancy because a baby has a condition incompatible with life is different than terminating a pregnancy because a child may have an intellectual disability. People who don't have Ds make judgements about how worthwhile a person with Ds's life will be based on their assumptions. What a life as a person with Ds (for instance) has may really be very different than those assumptions. Not to mention that one could abort a baby who has Ds because they are afraid they may have health issues, or create a burden for those siblings left after parents die, and then give birth to a child with an even more debilitating disability that can't be detected prenatally.

I am pro-choice and believe women should be able to make choices for themselves. I don't have the right to make these choices for other families. But this issue is a difficult one, and sometimes I think people do make the wrong choice.

You hit the nail on the head. The drop in Down Syndrome children isn't because it occurs less but because these children aren't allowed to be born. One of my favorite books growing up was about a girl and her friend with Down Syndrome.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0590401688?SubscriptionId=0QCHRJVSKG6F3BRGBNG2&tag=pbs_00005-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0590401688

[Anonymous]

I had an abortion because my baby had a fatal condition. I didn't think my mental health or my husband's would survive the pregnancy knowing our baby would die. I also didn't know if our baby would suffer in the womb or upon birth/death. I made the decision I thought was best for my baby as her mom. I made the decision also to save myself. Someone else can make a different decision, but that doesn't mean mine was wrong.

[Anonymous]

Haven't read all the posts. I have a child with SN and I find the Welcome to Holland thing obnoxious. Having a child with SN cannot be compared to a trip to Europe where you frolick with tulips.

I won't go into depth about what it's like, but if I knew this child would have these issues I would not have aborted. He is amazing-challenging, yes, exhausting at times, yes, but incrediblem. However, I have the life circumstances that make it possible to handle the SN and keep my sanity, though I still have come close to losing it at times. I have a good husband, a supportive family and though it is a stretch and we sometimes get help from family we can afford the hours and hours of intervention. I realize not everyone is as lucky as I am. I not only have the support, but I have a child who has the potential to live independently, he is completely mobile and blossoming.

I have never met a woman who talks about aborting a child with a severe disability lightly. It is not my place to judge. I haven't walked in that person's shoes. I count my blessings and wish others only the best. This is not an easy road.

[Anonymous]

18:09 posting again...

Decades ago I saw an interesting political cartoon that poked at the prolife/prochoice thing. In one square is a pregnant woman with prolifers ralying around her in support. In the next box is a woman with disabled child alone and all around her are pro-life signs on the ground.

I see a lot of people on here being so flippant and judgmental. This is not about perfection. It's about exorbitant costs, extreme emotional and physical stress, quality of life for the child in some cases, dealing with stares and pity daily, insurance companies barely paying for a fraction of services, school district cutbacks and so much more. It's easy to sit and judge when you either haven't experienced this or when you have, but you have the funds to manage.

[Anonymous]

Well said pp.

[Anonymous]

"You can do whatever you want with your body as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Like, your liberty to swing your first ends just where my nose begins. So, your liberty to do whatever you want to your own body ends when it'll harm someone else, like your unborn child."

Not sure what anyone's "unborn child" has to do with your nose, or your business.

MYOB.

Not your body, not your business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't mind people giving birth to babies that will live short agonizing lives because they think their imaginary god wants them to.

But when they start trying to dictate what I can do with my body because of the misogynist dictates of some virgin ex-Nazi in a dress, they can quite frankly go screw themselves.

You can do whatever you want with your body as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Like, your liberty to swing your first ends just where my nose begins. So, your liberty to do whatever you want to your own body ends when it'll harm someone else, like your unborn child.

But if you were to prevent me from exercising my right to an abortion, wouldn't you then be making decisions about my body? Maybe you would be making a decision for me that would hurt my body? Why do you have that right?

As long as the unborn are connected to women's bodies for their continued development they are a part of the woman's body and forcing a woman to stay pregnant is akin to harming her body (or forcing her to harm her body).

Even though I think abortion is ending a life, I believe a born person's right to control their own body trumps any rights the unborn have. It is inhumane to force a woman to stay pregnant, more inhumane than ending the developing life of the fetus. If there were some way to separate a woman from her fetus (and preserve the fetus) that would change the equation (obviously I'm talking about before viability).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And let me just add that while you are sitting on your ass crying crocodile tears about the abortion of Special Needs kids, some idiot has gone on for 14 pages in Schools General Discussion about why her children have to go to school with Special Needs kids. This is the real problem for Special Needs kids -- not abortion -- REAL LIFE -- so why not join reality, toots, and dry those crocodile tears. Phantom special needs babies don't need your help. Real special needs kids do.

Okay, (I'm not PP) but I will say one thing about this. First of all, the unborn aren't "phantoms." I am pro-choice, but unborn babies are real, not phantoms. But second, and I agree with your larger point in many ways, when mothers who discover their babies have Down syndrome and abort there are fewer kids with Down syndrome. This does impact children born with Down syndrome. The fewer kids with Down syndrome there are, the fewer supports are available to them, the less research into their development is done, and the more the children with Ds who are here are treated as oddities.

If people don't respect the lives of children with Ds enough to give birth to them, will they really care as much about their lives once they're born? The issue is complicated. Terminating a pregnancy because a baby has a condition incompatible with life is different than terminating a pregnancy because a child may have an intellectual disability. People who don't have Ds make judgements about how worthwhile a person with Ds's life will be based on their assumptions. What a life as a person with Ds (for instance) has may really be very different than those assumptions. Not to mention that one could abort a baby who has Ds because they are afraid they may have health issues, or create a burden for those siblings left after parents die, and then give birth to a child with an even more debilitating disability that can't be detected prenatally.

I am pro-choice and believe women should be able to make choices for themselves. I don't have the right to make these choices for other families. But this issue is a difficult one, and sometimes I think people do make the wrong choice.

You hit the nail on the head. The drop in Down Syndrome children isn't because it occurs less but because these children aren't allowed to be born. One of my favorite books growing up was about a girl and her friend with Down Syndrome.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0590401688?SubscriptionId=0QCHRJVSKG6F3BRGBNG2&tag=pbs_00005-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0590401688

We are NOT running out of Special Needs children. Another myth by the anti-abortion crowd. And yes, everyone loves DS kids. But where are the cute books about DS adults?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I have a cousin with spina bifida. She had a very difficult childhood filled with painful surgeries. She is now a college-educated, married woman leading a wonderful life.

I also had a pregnancy that I chose to terminate because of Down Syndrome. I did this because while I know that many people with Down Syndrome go on to lead long, healthy lives, I also know of babies who died immediately after birth, at 4 months, and at 21. I've known families that have fallen apart and elderly parents who are spending their last years caring for adult children who cannot take care of themselves. We decided we did not want to take the chance that that could happen to our family. We did not want our older child to have to care for a disabled child after we are gone. I understand that you can never predict the future, but we considered our odds and chose not to take the chance.

That does not mean I do not value the lives of disabled people, like my cousin. I made a choice that I felt was best for my family and it has nothing to do with other families and their choices. I wish everyone the best of luck with their choices.

Thank you for posting. Two of my three children have special needs and while I love them dearly, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I used to be surprised with parents of SN kids were so judgmental about others terminating pregnancies because of disability/genetic defects but as I've gotten older I realize there are some people who just can't imagine an experience different than their own or that have some sort of 'you get what you deserve' attitude. But, they're in the minority. I'm just grateful we have choices.

- I'd also like to see these pro-life hardliners direct as half much energy and resource towards supporting SN kids and their families as they do on trying to eliminate choice. Why don't they have an outreach program to support SN families that they can point to? They could say 'if you have that baby rather than abort it, we'll support you!'.

religious pro life organizations have many outreach and assistance programs for SN kids

Please share the names of ones that will come to my house and watch my SN kids while my DH and I just have some time alone together. I know McClean Bible Church has a center that you can drop your kids off but that's not an option for us because of some of their emotional issues. I need someone to transport two kids to speech therapy on Mondays at 7:30 am, two kids to occupational therapy on Wednesday at 4:30 pm and one kid to the psychologist on Thursday at 1:30. We'll need $5,000 to pay outstanding balances for therapies and will need an additional $10,000 to get us through therapy the rest of the year. I don't care if the money comes directly to us or if it's paid directly to the therapy providers, whatever is easier for the organization. We also owe $7,500 to the education consultant who fought so hard for the kids to get the services they need in school. You wouldn't believe how little the school was offering. They would have fallen further and further behind. We're on a payment plan with her but it would wonderful not to have that hanging over us. By the time we get it paid off, it'll be time for the annual reviews. Do they also have vacation houses/condos? It would be wonderful to take the kids to the beach. They've never been and we certainly can't afford to rent anything. We'd love to do something like DisneyWorld (I hear they're very accomodating of SN kids) but that's probably too much. We'll need someone to come to the house three times a week after school so DH and I can work out. We just don't have the energy for exercise because of what we're dealing with and our physical/mental health has really suffered because of it. It would be great to have time for ourselves to work out. Oh! I almost forgot the medications! Soem of the medications aren't available in generic form and our monthly medical bill is in the $1,500-$2,000 range. Again, I don't care if the money comes to us directly or if payment is made directly to the pharmacy. DD will also need some mouth work soon. Does your organization have an oral surgeon and orthodontist on staff or will you providing money for that?